Crazy Duck's page

Here's my question about Pathfinder: What's in it for Players? Don't get me wrong, I DM like a lot of people here. But I don't DM all the time. My group has split up the current adventure paths between us, so I've only read AOW, but not SC or ST. For groups like mine, Pathfinder becomes a problem because if I'm not running that AP, then I don't need the book.

But here's a larger question from an economic standpoint: How is this supposed to appeal to everyone? Previously everyone in my group could subscribe to Dragon (even my wife read it and looked forward to it). Pathfinder is a DM only magazine so don't you lose some 75% plus of your total readers?

I posted a similar request last night in the Dragon general questions messageboard. We definately need a players magazine. The bottom line is that Pathfinder, no matter how great it is, won't get the job done for the majority of PLAYERS. Good for DMs, not so good for everyone else.

No one at Paizo has answered my question about a non-compete clause, though, so I suspect that's what is stopping this.

Like everyone, I've very sad about the news that Dragon and Dungeon are going to cancelled in September. I've been a subscriber to both for some time and I look forward each month to receiving the magazines in the mail. Its some of the only gaming mail I get, and its special day to receive an issue.

Paizo needs to make a new magazine devoted to players. Pathfinder sounds nice as a way to fill the void for Dungeon, but Dragon subscribers are left in the cold. There may be a few support articles in each Pathfinder issue, but that doesn't do much for players looking to avoid reading the AP.

Players need magazines too. Dragon has vastly improved over the past couple of years in the content it has offered (some of which necessarily can't go forward without the license, but other stuff such as class based materials and background articles should). It would be a shame to see that momentum gone just because the WOTC license dried up. The talent should still be there.

So to James, Erik and the other editors, is Paizo interested in doing a magazine for the players? If you need contributors for articles, I offer my services for free (that's a gift given I'm an IP lawyer, my billing rate isn't exactly cheap). I admit I never got around to sending something before because I figured there would always be a "tomorrow" but I was wrong. I'm willing, however, to help do what it takes to get something like this off the ground. I'm sure there are lots of others on the boards here who feel the same (and can offer quality submissions). I hope you consider my plea.

One question for you (since I've got my lawyer cap on now). Is there any sort of non-compete clause between WOTC and Paizo preventing you from publishing another magazine (hence the significantly different format for Pathfinder)?

Just hit 3rd level. It was a great fight, very difficult as written. There were multiple characters taken down between the combination of the guy with the pole arm (reach tripping) and the wizard's ray of enfeeblements.

To make the fight a little bit more challenging, have it take place in a back alley where there is limited mobility so the characters have to move through lots of threatened squares.

I still question the need for an AOW hardcover. We have the magazines and they're still available, what more is needed? Sure, there's some minor things that could be cleaned up but there's plenty concerning that here on the forums (and anyone running AOW should definately look here first).

Don't we want Paizo spending its time working on creating new adventure paths rather than reworking what we already have?

I ran it as the end of the Champions Belt said to run it. They get word that a dragon has come to Diamond Lake. And they got a spot check just like the module suggested. I don't tend to change things much from what's printed aside from beefing things up when they're higher level than the module calls for. No, they didn't ambush her at all either. Where did you get that?

I don't have the module in front of me, so I'm not exactly sure what information they get before hand. I thought it was just that a dragon had attacked Diamond Lake, but no more specific than that. I think getting time to buff up ahead of time is an advantage, though I'm not sure how much of this your players got. If they cast 1 round/level effects...probably too much. If they just cast 10 min/level effects, not a problem.

Also, I have no idea how your combat went down. But I am surprised there was no surprise round giving everyone full round attacks (which would have prevented charging, etc). Its been my experience that at least someone in the party fails a Spot check (keep in mind the -1/10 ft penalty) and should be surprised. Again, I don't have the module in front of me so I don't know when you had them make spot checks. If it wasn't immediately before combat (i.e. the round Ilthane attacks), well then its the module that makes it too easy.

Also, I'd be curious about movement rates for engaging what should be a flying dragon (not sure about the growing wings, what maneuverability that gets you, and what the rate was, especially since its double movement up). Keep in mind Ilthane should have an 80 ft. reach on breath weapon, so no need to get very close.

I take it also that everyone made their save on Frightful Presence?

Have any of you had to deal with the legal ramifications of the actions of your PCs in the AoW path? For example, even though Filge may have broken some laws (grave robbing, and animating the dead if you make it illegal) unless the PCs have been deputized by the local law, what gives them the right to go into Filge's observatory, steal his things and potentially kill him?

The assumption here is that criminals have rights. Its perfectly plausible, from a legal theory stand point, that criminals could forfeit their rights from the time of the criminal act. [Not that I can think of a modern system that has this, but jurisprudence can develop in different ways]

Now as to the break and entering of someone else's property, I'm not sure on that unless there is a justification defense.

Well isn't the problem that you gave them gift of forewarning? I mean you identified a) black dragon and b) specific location. Even then, despite a dragon lying in wait with keen senses and such, you let them ambush the dragon. Now I admit that Ilthane could be improved with some Draconomicon stuff, but the encounter would be a lot more difficult if the PCs didn't expect to encounter a flying black dragon.

Thanks everyone, that was just the sort of prior experience I was looking for. Sounds like deeper darkness and obscuring mist will do the trick and set up an interesting environmental challenge!

In my game, the PCs went as far as the horseshoe cavern, encountered the archers and the otyughs, and then ran. I think I'll have the chief post some more guards in the entrance cavern (maybe 6 grimlocks, one of whom is holding an item with deeper darkness to give them a chance). The archers will also have deeper darkness on them to give them a chance to hide and some miss chance for the retailiatory fire. If the PCs attack the following day since they left, they'll get a chance to take on Grallak Kur down two third level spells (for deeper darkness). Otherwise they'll get him at full strength.

I wasn't doubting that the Grimlocks could go after torches, lanterns and sunrods. That's not at issue (although a good case could be made for Light spells).

The problem is that the tactic of going after the light sources....doesn't work. And if it doesn't work, then the Grimlocks aren't much of a challenge at all. As I noted above, the tieflings were actually better at altering the environment to their favor than the grimlocks. From the first few battles I've had, the grimlocks just roll over and die in the light (no challenge whatsoever).

I know plenty of people have said the Grimlock caverns were a cakewalk. Any thoughts on how to make it more challenging, keeping in mind that the theme is "dark caverns where bad guys have advantage because they can see and you can't"?

This might have come up before, but does anyone have an idea as to how the grimlocks are to manage attacking the parties light sources? I ran part of the caverns last week and had them do just that, but afterwards I've heard grumblings from the players (rightly so) that the grimlocks shouldn't have been able to do that.

I made it a point that the Grimlocks did not go after Light spells (and passed this info to the players through a wisdom check). But I did have them attack the parties sunrods. But aren't the grimlocks doomed to fail? Not knowing the hardness/hp of a sunrod, at the time I made a mental decision that it was 2 hardness, 2 hp (I assumed they should be fragile). Turns our they are made of iron (10 hardness), and from the weight (1 lb) and size (1 foot rod), they should be .3 inches thick. In other words, they have 9 hp. How are the grimlocks supposed to break that, much less even overcome the hardness? Any thoughts on this? Ranged attacks already do half damage, but even the melee attacks wouldn't work.

Without the darkness aspect, the grimlock caverns become a lot less interesting (from a tactical perspective). The tieflings were actually better at this than the grimlocks, it seems too bad they don't have the same edge.

Crazy Duck

I'm with both sides. I make electronic copies of the modules, but I do it by OCR (and all for my personal use, no distribution of these). I find that the electronic copy is helpful because then I can edit and slice it as needed. Each encounter then gets its own sheet, with the relevant map portion at the top and the monster segregated off so I can look at that sheet as necessary. Plus I can make rules notes to myself (like difficult terrain and such) when needed. And I can add in pictures of the bad guys figures so I can keep straight who is who (helpful when there are multiple unique NPCs).

Just some thoughts,

Crazy Duck

My players have finally finished the Whispering Cairn, so I thought I'd share some of my thoughts and experiences on this adventure. Overall, we had a good time and minus a few hiccups, it went smoothly. I made some changes, though, that I thought I'd explain in a little detail. Oh, and one of my players is writing a story hour if you'd like to read more:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=170061

Adventure Intro
I thought the adventure did a good job of providing guidance to get started. True, the adventure does literally start at the door of the dungeon, but the suggestions about the rival adventuring party and using instigators worked perfectly. I've previously posted my instigator handout here:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dungeon/ageOfWorms/archives/whispering CairnHeresHowIInstigatedThePlot&page=1#84136

Mine Office Side Trek
I ran my players through a variant of this using lizardmen. Though they are a little tough challenge rating-wise, at the time I had 7 players (plus an animal companion) so it worked out okay. The point was to foreshadow the lizardmen's involvement for later, but as of now my player's have forgotten about this. I'll remind them later. This was good enough to get them to about 700 xp, and it took one session. My version of the side trek is detailed here:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dungeon/ageOfWorms/archives/whispering CairnVariantMineOfficeStarterAdventure&page=1#84125

False Tomb
I had read on these boards that there were lots of problems with the swarm, so I was really concerned about the encounter. But I had seven players and an animal companion so I knew I'd need to beef it up just a little. What I did was add a second Mad Slasher, but kept just one swarm. While my players kept playing with the tomb, they relatively ignored the elevator until the swarm and slashers burst forth. This was a tough fight, but it worked out okay. I had previously given them the weapons they needed, and the use of two Mad Slasher was good because it gave the fighter types something to do as well. Only casualty was the wolf companion, who the druid had left in front of the elevator so it got attacked first.

The Wind Dukes and Rod of Seven Parts
I have a mix of old-school and newer players. I passed most of the information through the bard (a newer player) who read it as if it were just ancient history. But it was great to see my old-school players jaws drop at the mention of some of this stuff. As a critique, though, this adventure relies heavily on some Knowledge (the planes) rolls. None of my players have this skill so I've had to fudge some to get the story across (its no fun if they never find out why). Yes, my players should have this skill but the bard is already tapped on knowledge skills (a bard can only go so far), the cleric has low INT, and we have a sorcerer (who we repeatedly find out is no replacement for a proper wizard). On retrospect, it would have been better to have introduced some sort of Rosetta stone that could translate from Vaati to Common.

The Submerged Chambers
This turned out to be a pretty awful combat. When my players first found they water, they immediately turned around saying they weren't going in there. I later used a random encounter to hint there were monsters in the water (by having ghouls come out that were soaking wet wandering about the cairn).

The fight underwater was...well...complicated. I upgraded the water elemental to medium to make it a better fight (since they outnumbered it 7 to 1). I started the fight innocent enough. They were investigating the pool. The sorcerer (who is a bit of an idiot who likes to touch everything....he even ate the orange goo and got sick) stuck his hand in the water. I had the water elemental grapple him and pull him under. The rest of the fight was then the group wading in after him. Mechanically we figured it out, but it was a combat that just dragged on. It seemed a bit much for low level adventurers.

Wandering encounters
I added in two random encounters to try and keep things spiced up. One was the ghoul encounter I mentioned before. I try and use my encounters as story-telling, each one has a purpose so they aren't really random. The ghouls got the players into the water which they wouldn't have gone in otherwise (and thus, would never have found the last lantern).

The other encounter I used was an imp leading several lemures (yes, imps don't have telepathy but I fudged for story purposes). The purpose of this encounter was to foreshadow the rod of seven parts, and the pit fiend looking for it. Right now, the players just know they ran into some devils. But I'm going to make it a repeating occurence around the cairn (with escalating devils, bearded devils are up next). It was helpful when the action slowed down, so I could spice it up with a fight. My group fought the imps/lemures in the brown mold room. The Imp's suggestion ability worked great as the fighter failed and ran into the mold! The imp escaped the fight after taunting the bard and poisoning the sorcerer, so I think I'll have him return as a villian (maybe with some sorcerer levels of his own).

Alastor and the side trek
This was awesome and where the adventure really shines. Sure, it reads like an online game like Everquest where you need X (bury bones), but to get X you must first get Y (find Kullen) and then do Z (filge). But when it plays, it really plays out as a continuing mystery. What happened to the bones? Who has them now?

I changed the encouter at the Land Farmstead from an Owlbear to two tax bears (brown bears). It was a good fight and my players LOVE to fight tax bears. The true beauty of the encounter is when the baby tax bear comes out and the players realize that they've just killed the parents who were defending their cubs. You should have seen the look of shock on my wife! But she was playing a ranger so she adopted the cub and its now her brother's (the sorcerer's) familiar. Again, this was a great encounter with real emotional impact. Those are truly hard to find.

Kullen and his Gang
This was a good complicated fight. Especially the one-two punch of Todrik (with tripping) and Meerothan (with ray of enfeeblement). My players fought them in an alley so the bad guys were able to control the battlefield pretty easily. A tough fight, but very memorable.

Filge
What's not to love about this? My sorcerer still sits at the dinner table when he sulks. Plus, he was plenty creepy. And the story sounds like a Scooby Doo adventure (there's trouble at the Old Observatory!).

Wind Warriors
This was a tough, tough fight. I added one extra wind warrior (figuring that 2 for 4 players meant 3 for 6 players). But my group divided itself getting past the iron ball trap. Half were still working their way through the room when the other half burst in. They expected that they would just get the treasure and go home. It never occured to them there would be guardians. The fight was tough and left everyone in negatives, but fortunately I had a deus ex machina in Alastor to pull out a potion for the cleric.

Overall, this was great adventure. It took 6 actual sessions (plus an intro at the mine office and a linker in town with Chaum). Definately recommended!

My players had no problems with not one, but three Gricks. I've got six players and they were all third level by the time they fought them. The Sorcerer (focusing on blasting type spells) made short work of them, combined with a Ranger with favored enemy and Fighter wielding a bastard sword. No one in the group had magic weapons, and it was still a cake walk. Once you get past their damage reduction 10, their measley 8 points are easy to take off. Plus they aren't great at attacking at all. I'd say you don't have much to worry about here.

I suspect that the number of people currently playing AoW is probably not a majority of current Dungeon subscribers, let alone current D&D players. The hardcover market is for the subscribers who have AoW queued up behind SCAP, or for non-subscribers who have been hearing about it on various gaming messageboards for a year now. GMs with multiple groups or plans to rerun the path in the future fall in there somewhere, as well.

I think we're both speculating then because we both don't have any exact figures (although my group is almost done with SCAP, and we split time between three different campaigns so I bet a lot of people are finished or near finished). But the figure I know for certain is that I'm playing AOW now, so if the hardcover comes out after I'm done then I don't have much incentive to buy it. It's a fact that they lose potential sales the longer that they wait.

Personally, though, I don't see the need for a hardcover. I've already got all the magazines so unless there is lots of new stuff in there, its not worth it. But as I've already heard from the editors in this thread, its cost prohibitive to add in a ton of new material. Plus, they've already done a great job of giving us supplemental material with the online supplements. What more do we really need from a hardcover? (and printing it for people without subscriptions seems like a bad idea, that teaches away from subscriptions in the first place). Shouldn't we be encouraging new material rather than rehashes of stuff we have?

Age of Worms can be found in issues #124–#135 of Dungeon; it ran without break over the course of 12 issues. For the foreseable future, this is the only place you'll be able to get the campaign. If we get the approval to produce a hardcover version and if we have the resources in place to do so when we DO get approval... it'll still probably be at least a year before the product sees the light of day.

So for now (and the rest of 2006 and most of 2007), the magazine incarnation of Age of Worms is it. Fortunately, I believe we have a LOT of issues of these 12 down in the warehouse for order on this website.

Shouldn't there be a consideration that there's probably a limited window of opportunity for an Age of Worms hardcover? It sounds like a lot of us are playing it now, and most of us should be able to finish the campaign in a year and half. So I question whether there's even a need to publish a hardcover.

I mean I'd certainly buy a hardcover now (provided it added new value over the current magazines). But once I'm done with the campaign, it seems kinda hard to justify spending $60+ dollars on a book I won't be using for just nostalgia sake. If I'm done with the campaign, you don't have anything to offer me even if you add in new material.

Hey Crazy duck I would love to see the write-up.

My email is dmderek@gmail.com

Derek,

Check out the RPGenius website:

http://therpgenius.com/ageofworms/RoleplayingAids/tabid/227/Default.aspx

Its posted there (easy to download) along with several other files I've created. Lots of other good submissions from other people too. This site is a must for a DM running Age of Worms.

BTW, at somepoint in the near future I plan to post some unique (and illustrated) NPCs to the site.

I'm actually planning on playing the battle out with my players, allowing them to take on the roles of some of the town's more powerful NPCs. True, they'll all get their butts kicked, but I think it will make a good horror episode and will be much more satisfying when their own characters get some revenge.

I think you vastly overestimate the effectiveness of being able to cast spells. That ogre with the 12 intelligence is going to have save DC's around 13 for his 2nd level spells. He is nowhere near the threat of a dedicated spellcaster with a 16 in his primary casting score and save DC's around 15. Every point of save DC matters, which is why it takes a feat just to get a +1 to that number.

Also, your ogre is wasting his abilities by going ranged. The ogre's reach allows him to dominate melee. Characters can't easily enter or exit his threat zone, they have trouble getting healed while near him, and it's hard to get around him. You also haven't examined the benefits the ogre would get for having the elite array and taking 2 levels in fighter instead of 4 levels in cleric. That would bring his Str up to 27. Yeah, he doesn't get extra attacks due to a high BAB, but he's going to get 3 bonus feats. You could give him two weapon fighting and because you didn't have to waste your highest stat in Wis/Int, and he will have a higher attack bonus than he would with levels in cleric.

Taking levels in wiz/cleric waters down the melee types. They have to put good scores in their casting stats instead of their melee stats, their spells aren't impressive to their foes due to the relatively low saves, and their combat abilities are not substantially improved. It doesn't always come out perfect, but the non-associated class levels are a pretty good rule of thumb.

Actually, I think you're not considering the vast number of spells available to spellcasters that have nothing at all to do with save DCs. Sure, there are some good spells out there with spell DCs, I don't deny that. But you also can't deny that there are plenty of equally effective spells without spell DCs. Almost all low level defensive spells (shield, mage armor, false life, shield of faith, etc.) could care less about your spell DC. There are also good attack spells that don't care either (ray of enfeeblement, scorching ray, magic missile, etc.). The example I pointed out with the Ogre Wizard can use spells to pump his AC through the roof, making him live longer. I like your dual wielding Ogre Fighter (although he only gets two bonus fighter feats, the other one due to HD really should count since that works for any class levels). But the Ogre Fighter gets nothing for improving AC, hp, etc. Just two more feats for a second attack. And let's not forget that the Ogre Cleric gets a second attack without needing any feats just due to the extra HD (4 HD and +3 BAB v. 2 HD and +2 BAB).

You also have to remember, the spells are just gravy. Its the 2 HD for 1 CR that makes it really strong. The cleric gets 4 HD, 4 x CON bonus and +3 BAB vs. a Fighter getting only 2 HD, 2 x CON bonus and +2 BAB for the same CR increase. Add a few spells (that aren't save DC dependent naturally) and its not even a fair comparison. Even the Ogre Wizard gains the same in hp from HD, but gets an extra 2 x CON bonus.

Here's my question: do you think the mystic theurge is overpowered?

You know, I hear this question batted around all the time at it amazes me people still ask this. Of course the mystic thuerge isn't overpowered. Its not even powered at all until you maybe get to 8-10 levels in the class where you can fuel a lot of Quickened spells. Even then, it still suffers and the best its got going for it is versitility. If you did mean to make the comparison on losing some caster levels in favor of more effectiveness, I take it you meant to compare the much closer Eldritch Knight/Spellsword combos out there? They lose a few caster levels but gain WAY more in effectiveness (can efficiently fight and cast spells, a potent combination along the lines of what we're talking about here with non-assocaited caster levels stacking with a fighter type base creature).

But the mystic theurge is apples to oranges for what we're talking about. Gestalt characters are much closer because what we're really observing is that you can squeeze extra HD out with nonassociated levels for free (much like a gestalt character can get essentially two levels for every level, although the nonassociated levels still win out because they actually get double HD).

I know the general rule is that losing caster levels are bad and that mixing casters with non-casters makes for a weak combination. But you have to remember the corollary to the rule that certain prestige classes are the exception (i.e. Eldritch Knight, Sacred Fist, etc.) that make for even stronger combinations. Nonassociated levels to the same thing by adding twice the power for the same cost.

If Zyrog were a mindflayer clr2/wiz2/drd2/sor2, you wouldn't hear any argument that he is too powerful. That's because it would be obvious that his main attack (his mindblast) is independent of and irrelevant to these class abilities. Concentrating his class levels makes them less irrelevant, but still doesn't change the fact that the threat he poses derives almost entirely from his racial abilities and not his class abilities.

At a certain point, this balance obviously shifts. Once he becomes a wiz20, it's pretty clear that his main action is using 9th level spells and not his mindblasts. Thus, the majority of his threat derives from his class levels and not his racial abilities.

The non-associated class system isn't really that far off. The ability to cast 1st or 2nd level spells is completely irrelevant for monsters above, say, CR 7. That's why the spellcasting classes are normally non-associated, including cleric and druid. It's only when the CR 7 creature is already a 5th level spellcaster that an additional level makes more than a marginal difference to its power.

I agree that Wiz2/Sor2/Clr2/Drd2 isn't unbalancing because its well established that casters are weak at the first few levels, but scale up quickly in power. Now if that were instead Ftr2/Bar2/Rgr2/Hexblade2 (or whatever combination of fighter types) then that would be a whole different story since their power curve is balanced to lower levels. The mind flayer would then have the melee ability to take out all those people who fail against an initial mind blast (and with the extra hp and BAB, I can see more than one brain getting extracted...).

But consider that even at mid-challenge ratings the system can fall apart. Let's take a hill giant (HD 12, CR 7) and add 12 non-associated cleric levels (+6 CR). The hill giant is now CR 13, but with 12 caster levels. Those 12 cleric levels provide 4 feats, so let's take three of them as Practiced Spellcaster (+4 CL), Quicken Spell, and Improved Toughness (+24 hp). Supposedly this CR 13 critter is equivalent to a 13th level cleric, but our hill giant casts spells at 16th level (although only has the allotment of a 12th level cleric), has nearly twice the hit dice (and a way better CON to add even more hit points) and +9 BAB higher (along with a STR score through the roof). This guys slaughters people in melee (casting ahead of time greater magic weapon for +4 and magic vestment for +4 AC due to CL 16 and lasting 16 hours) and would probably lead off with a quickened divine favor or shield of faith. (Note to self, use this guy next time...).

But this matters even at low levels. Let's take an Ogre (4HD, CR 3) and add 4 levels of cleric (+2 CR). Now we're at CR 5 so no character has extra attacks yet (except two weapon fighting, flurry of blows etc.). So actions do matter. But that extra +3 BAB from cleric levels now gives the Ogre Cleric a second attack (+11/+6 for 2d8+7 damage). Oh, and the Ogre gets the wisdom to cast spells from the addition of the elite stat array (hello +4 wisdom from that). And to add insult to injury, let's use those cleric levels to again take Practiced Spellcaster so that the Ogre Cleric casts at 8th level, so those supposedly insignificant 1st and 2nd level spells pack some punch.

BTW, the Ogre could also just as well become the dreaded Ogre Wizard (not to be confused with the Ogre Magi...heh heh). 4 levels of wizard instead of 4 levels of cleric combo in very nicely. But you say Ogres have crappy INT? Well you start with the elite stat array 15 INT - 4 racial +1 from character levels for a total 12 INT (good enough for 2nd level spells). Now again with Practiced Spellcaster, you get an 8th level caster for some nasty Scorching Rays (2 rays at +4 touch for 4d6), Ray of Enfeeblement (1d6+4 Str), long lasting Mage Armor and Shield spells (each +4 AC), and let's not forget the kicker, False Life (1d10+8 hp for 8 hours. That gives our Ogre Wizard 4d4+8, or 18 hp plus another 13 from false life for a total of 60 hp, pretty good for CR 5..and we could squeeze another 5 hp swapping Toughness with Improved Toughness). Our Ogre Wizard is basically a 4th level wizard that can take all the punishment of a 5th level fighter. Sounds like a nasty combination to me. (Another note to self, use this guy too...).

Really, the more I think about it, non-associated class levels far outshine associated class levels.

I think this thread highlights the danger of strict adherence to the rule about "non-associated class levels." You have to be VERY careful in adding so-called "non-associated" levels or you will quickly unbalance the encounter.

Non-associated levels are supposed to add +1 CR per two nonassociated levels (Note, I'm referring to these rules from memory since they aren't part of the SRD). This by itself doesn't seem overpowering when calculating a monster's challenge rating, as for lots of monsters it doesn't equate to 1:1 for hit dice anyway. Lots of fighting-type monsters have high hit dice to challenge rating ratios, while those that rely on their spell like abilities (outsiders, mind-flayers, etc) match up closer to 1:1 (and sometimes even less).

The problem comes in a couple of situations:
1) Creatures with lots of hit dice- the rule allows non-associated levels to be added 2 levels: 1 CR up to a creature's hit dice. Higher hit dice creatures can squeeze more from this rule adding far more to their power. Consider an evil Cloud Giant (17 HD, CR 11) with 8 levels of Sorcerer (+4 CR because its non-associated). This is actually better than just taking 4 levels of fighter (which would also be +4 CR as associated levels). Consider that the giant gains the same BAB, way more hitpoints (8d4+48 v. 4d10+24) and better saves (the higher Will save helps more when it already has a good Fort). True the giant doesn't gain the 3 feats from 4 levels of Fighter, but instead gets 8 casters levels from Sorcerer. We all know that 8th level caster is way better than 3 feats.

2) Poorly defined "non-associated" levels: The second problem is that the definition of non-associated levels leaves something to be desired. Consider the idea put forward that sorcerer and wizard levels are non-associated for a mind flayer. What then, if anything, would be an associated level? Certainly they aren't fighter types, not rogue-like either, and cleric seems a poor fit. They have the intelligence/charisma to take advantage of the wizard and sorcerer levels and it fits with their style of play (behind the line spell-like ability user), yet those levels aren't associated?

Consider also cleric levels. Those don't seem to be associated for any monster (at least that I can think of off the top of my head, which seems wrong if you consider undead...). Yet they add 3/4 BAB, d8 hit die (same as most monsters), two good saves, good skill access, and solid spell-casting (all you need is an average Wisdom score to take advantage of this since you get an ability point with every 4 hit dice anyway). 6-8 levels of non-associated cleric will quickly unbalance any monster.

It's all the fad to use monsters with "non-associated" levels. A DM would be wise to keep a careful eye on these encounters. The rule is meant as an approximation, and literal adherence to it will run into problems.

Crazy Duck, could you also send one to mcfarlandster@gmail.com? That would be sweet.

FYI, this got posted on the RPGenius website. There are now several versions by different people there, so there should be something for everyone.

All that being said, Dragon is a great source of supplemental material if you like providing that to your players. True, none of it is essential to the Adventure Path. The editors at Dungeon have actually done a great job keeping AOW self-contained so you don't need anything else to run it other than a PHB, DMG and MM.

But the great thing is that if you want to do something more, there is a whole host of additional content out there that can really supplement the game. One of the hardest things to do as a DM is to get the information that you have (as DM) to the players. I find all the supplemental articles in Dragon (Wormfood, Ecologies, main articles, etc.) to be quite helpful with this. Take Dragon 326 for instance. It has a main article on dungeoneering that is quite helpful for the low levels. Then immediately afterwards there is a good article on adventuring in sewers that is helpful for the HoHR. Plus even a handful of the Class Acts sections are useful (the one on the Sorcerer I passed out to one of my players).

Bottom line answer to the original post is that none of it is needed. But your game can be better with it, no doubt about that. I've never met a player who didn't like getting handouts.

Actually its two potions (one on Filge and one in his desk). The problem, of course, is the entirely fair perspective of the players- "If he can do it, why can't I?"

I'm getting that from the description of how magic items are made. You can't just look at the feat description, that doesn't tell you the whole process.

Check out this link:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041214a

Or the read the section on creating magic items in the DMG. In any event, here's the relevant part of the article:

"A potion is somewhat similar to a scroll because it is a stored spell in drinkable form (or in spreadable form in the case of an oil). Unlike a scroll, only certain kinds of spells can be made into potions or oils. The spell must be 3rd level or lower, and it must have a casting time of less than 1 minute. The spell stored in the potion or oil must have a target entry in its spell description (see Reading Spell descriptions) and be a spell that the caster can target upon herself or upon an object she touches. A spell with a personal range cannot be made into a potion or oil, and neither can a spell with an area or effect entry."

Putting spells with a personal range into potions seems to be a common misunderstanding that even the authors of the modules have....

So I'm preparing for the encounter with Filge, and I noticed that one of his syringes is a potion of false life. Umm...how??? The rules for Brew Potion don't let you create potions for spells with a range of personal (so false life is out).

I realize that the syringes are a nice variation on potions, but I've got a player that when they see this is going to be screaming up and down about this. I think this will get changed to a potion of aid, which although it isn't a wizard spell, its still a valid choice for potions.

I'm finding the supplemental material in Dragon very helpful. My players love getting handouts and swag, and Dragon has done a good job of packaging that up for you already. For the first session, I gave them handouts of the Mine Office. This has been useful because they now use the office as their base of operations. I then gave them the second article (mining equipment) for some extra gear that they found at the mining office. One of the players has made good use out of the stuff, such as the miner's helmet.

As a side note, the ecologies series in Dragon also parallels the major encounters in each issue very nicely. This is also VERY helpful. For Blackwall Keep, I'll be giving those with Knowledge Nature the article on the lizardfolk. Those with Knowledge religion know more about the Spawn of Kyuss, etc.

Crazy Duck

You can find a download of Chris Wissel's excellent background on Koramado's RPGenius website. There's also a lot of other goodies available for you as well.

Hope this helps.

M@

I've also got a variant of that write-up that is taken from the perspective of characters who grew up in Diamond Lake (as the adventure suggests). I wasn't able to load it to the RPGenius website so let me know if anyone is interested. My players found this very helpful, BTW.

Crazy Duck

I got my group hooked using the above plot, plus I sent around the first two Wormfood articles as "homework" to read. When I asked people to make characters, I told them they should all come from Diamond Lake. Five of seven of them are from town, and the two that aren't have ties to other characters. To instigate the plot, I picked my three best role-players and told them they should convince their other friends (characters) to come along. In the end, I had three groups of two. The seventh was a druid who for a mission for the Bronzewood lodge was looking for the missing soldier who's body appears in the mine office.

It worked out well. The group started working together from the start, but still role-played while they are there. I keep reminding them that its just a matter of time before Auric and crew shows up...

Thanks! Here's the link to the thread with the mine office encounters. Note that these are pretty tough because I've got seven experienced players to challenge.

Crazy Duck

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dungeon/ageOfWorms/whisperingCairnVari antMineOfficeStarterAdventure&page=1#84125

Taking some inspiration from people who came before me, this is the mine office variant I put my players through two weeks ago. Two key notes about it:

1) It focuses on lizardfolk in an attempt to foreshadow Blackwall Keep and tighten up the story (goblins really didn't help advance the ball).

2) This is pretty tough because I have seven players. They made it through without any casualties, but I dropped several of them into the negatives.

Crazy Duck

Age of Worms- Introductory Mine Office Adventure
Located on the outskirts of the Diamond Lake community, a ruined mine office and dwelling sits unoccupied, without an owner. This crumbling office is the site of the PCs’ first meeting in “The Whispering Cairn”. The previous owner of the building, the mining manager Ulgo Fant, abandoned the place more than fifty years ago when his mine ran dry. When he died over a decade ago, the property was left without an owner. Few have bothered to visit this wreck since its abandonment. Young children from the town often come up to the building on a dare and a few years back an inexperienced thief took up residence here before moving onto more lucrative trade routes.

The Yard (EL 2)

A modest dwelling squats upon the crown of a small hill. Although the rough stone walls of the first floor look mostly intact, the second floor has completely collapsed. A half height wall rings the house, but it too is in a state of severe disrepair. Rubble and dense weeds choke the yard.

The entire yard is considered difficult terrain except for the small path leading up to the building. Behind the building, a stone well rises up out of the weeds. Although the bucket is gone, the water is clean, if a bit brackish. In the back, the remains of a wooden outhouse lie in an unrecognizable heap.

Stirges (4) CR 1/2
N Tiny magical beast (Monster Manual 236-37)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Spot +4, Listen +4
AC 16, touch 16, flat-footed 12
hp 5 (1 HD)
Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +1
Spd 10 ft., fly 40 ft. (average)
Melee attach +7 touch (attaches)
Base Atk +1; Grp -11 (+1 when attached)
Abilities Str 3, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 6
Feats Alertness, Weapon Finesse*
Skills Hide +14, Listen +4, Spot +5
Attach (Ex): If a stirge hits with a touch attack, it uses its eight pincers to latch onto the opponent’s body. An attached stirge is effectively grappling its prey. The stirge loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 12, but holds on with great tenacity. Stirges have a +12 racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).
An attached stirge can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached stirge through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the stirge.
Blood Drain (Ex): A stirge drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage in any round when it begins its turn attached to a victim. Once it has dealt 4 points of Constitution damage, it detaches and flies off to digest the meal. If its victim dies before the stirge’s appetite has been sated, the stirge detaches and seeks a new target.

1- OOOOO
2- OOOOO
3- OOOOO
4- OOOOO

The Building

Made of smooth stone blocks, this building stands in shambles. Thick vines creep up the side and most of the windows are broken. The front door hangs open, barely on its hinges, under a sagging and partially collapsed porch.
Part of the front porch has collapsed but it still allows entry to the building. The two exterior doors are damaged but are still sound and easily repaired with an hour’s worth of work and a successful DC 15 Craft (carpentry) skill check. The locks on the doors are rusted beyond repair and must be replaced (see page 128 of the Player’s Handbook for prices). The walls and doors have the following statistics.
Wooden Doors: 1½ in. thick; hardness 5; hp 15; Break DC 18.
Stone Walls: 1 ft. thick; hardness 8; hp 90; Break DC 35; Climb DC 20 (15 with vines).

The Interior

Small mounds of debris litter the floor of the building’s interior. Loose stones, dead weeds, and grime cover virtually every surface. Paintings must have once adorned the place as indicated by the particular stain patterns marring the walls. The only light comes from thin shafts sneaking in from outside illuminating clouds of dust dancing through the stale air.

The Living Room (EL 3)

The first floor of the manor consists of five chambers. The largest of these is the living room, part of which has completely collapsed. A staircase in the living room is chocked with debris and leads to the remains of the second floor.

Four of Ssyath’s lizardfolk troops claim this room as their quarters. Three will fight anyone who enters the manor while the fourth will run to the office to alert Ssyath.

Lizardfolk (4) CR 1
NE Medium Humanoid (Reptilian) (Monster Manual 169)
Init +0; Senses Spot +0; Listen +0
Languages Draconic
AC 15, touch 10, flat-footed 15
hp 11(2 HD)
Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +0
Spd 30 ft.
Melee 2 claws +2 (1d4+1) and bite +0 (1d4)
Base Atk +1; Grp +2
Abilities Str 13, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 10
SQ hold breath
Feats Multiattack
Skills Balance +4, Jump +5, Swim +2

1- OOOOO OOOOO O
2- OOOOO OOOOO O
3- OOOOO OOOOO O
4- OOOOO OOOOO O

The Office (EL 2)

Directly to the right of the living room space is what an office was once. The bookshelves and desk have thoroughly rotted and what few tomes and mine maps remain are ruined and illegible. Now this room serves as the quarters for the lizardfolk scout leader, Ssyath. Ssyath has been tasked by Shukak, at the suggestion of the dragon Ilthane, to spy upon the town of Diamond Lake. Shukak plans on sacking the town after the fall of the Blackwall Keep garrison.

Ssyath CR 2
Male lizardfolk ranger 1
NE Medium Humanoid (Reptilian) (Monster Manual 169)
Init -1; Senses Spot +3, Listen +3
Languages Draconic
AC 16, touch 9, flat-footed 16
hp 25 (3 HD)
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +0
Spd 30 ft.
Melee club +7 (1d6+3) and bite +1 (1d4+1) or 2 claws +2 (1d4+1) and bite +0 (1d4)
Base Atk +2; Grp +4
Attack Options favored enemy humanoid (human) +2
Combat Gear masterwork club, 3 potions of cure light wounds and a potion of remove paralysis
Abilities Str 17, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
SQ hold breath, wild empathy +3
Feats Multiattack, Track, Weapon Focus (club)
Skills Balance +4, Jump +5, Listen +3, Spot +3, Swim +2
Possessions combat gear, heavy shield made from a large turtle shell, masterwork club

1- OOOOO OOOOO OOOOO OOOOO OOOOO

Treasure: Carefully hidden in the desk are two scrolls in watertight cases (DC 20 search). The first is an arcane scroll containing detect secret doors, grease and darkvision. The second is a divine scroll with shillelagh, cure light wounds, and hold person.

The Dining Room (EL 4)

Adjoining the living room is a sizable dining room. Any furniture that remains in the room is completely soiled and worthless. Ssyath has brought with him two monitor lizards that he uses as guards for this room. The hungry lizards attack any non-lizardfolk who enters.

Lizard, monitor (2) CR 2
N medium animal (Monster Manual 275)
Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Spot +4, Listen +4
AC 15, touch 12, flat-footed 13
hp 22 (3 HD)
Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +2
Spd 30 ft., swim 30 ft.
Melee bite +5 (1d8+4)
Base Atk +2; Grp +5
Abilities Str 17, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Feats Alertness, Great Fortitude
Skills Climb +7, Hide +6 (+8 forest), Listen +4, Move Silently +6, Spot +5, Swim +11

1- OOOOO OOOOO OOOOO OOOOO OO
2- OOOOO OOOOO OOOOO OOOOO OO

Treasure: Ssyath uses the monitor lizards to guard the treasure he has acquired during his campaign. Underneath the debris in this room he has hidden a locked chest (DC 15) containing 477 gp and 345 sp. Also underneath the debris is a suit of banded mail, a longsword, and a heavy steel shield that Ssyath took from a garrison member he ambushed and killed. If the remains are returned to the Diamond Lake garrison, the characters will be rewarded with 25 each and given a small medal worth 5 gp for their service.

The Kitchen

The kitchen contains an actual fire pit, but the chimney is blocked and must be cleared before it can be used. A staircase chocked with debris leads downstairs to a crude cellar.

The Pantry (EL 2)

The pantry, attached to the kitchen, has a number of empty and broken shelves along with two empty barrels.

Ssyath keeps the groups food stores in this location. He keeps the pantry locked at all times, but as an extra measure to discourage his troops from sneaking rations, he keeps three medium vipers as well. The vipers will spring forth and attack when the pantry door is opened.

Snake, medium vipers (3) CR 1
N medium animal (Monster Manual 280)
Init +3; Senses scent; Spot +5, Listen +5
AC 16, touch 13, flat-footed 13
hp 9 (2 HD)
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +0
Spd 20 ft., climb 20 ft., swim 20 ft.
Melee bite +4 (1d4-1 plus poison)
Base Atk +1; Grp +0
Abilities Str 8, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Balance +11, Climb +11, Hide +12, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +7
Poison (Ex): Injury, DC 11, 1d6 Con/1d6 Con.

1- OOOOO OOOO
2- OOOOO OOOO
3- OOOOO OOOO

Treasure: The pantry contains 16 days worth of trail rations, and four waterskins. Also cleverly hidden among some refuse is a potion of resist energy (acid).

Second Story

The second story of the manor is in complete ruins. Although there is no roof in its current state, the floor above prevents most of the rainwater from leaking into the first floor.

Cellar (EL 2)

The cellar is partially collapsed, but appears to be stable at the current time. Along one wall, a crumbling wine rack still stands, although others have already plundered it, leaving a pile of empty and broken bottles at its base. Ominous squeaking sounds can be heard coming from the basement with a Listen check (DC 10).

Numerous rats live in the cellar. Most are harmless, but a few dire rats are also present. They will attempt to swarm any characters that disturb the cellar.

Dire rats (6) CR 1/3
N Small animal (Monster Manual 64)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, scent; Spot +4, Listen +4
AC 15, touch 14, flat-footed 12
hp 5 (1 HD)
Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +3
Spd 40 ft., climb 20 ft.
Melee bite +4 (1d4 plus disease)
Base Atk +0; Grp -4
Abilities Str 10, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Feats Alertness, Weapon Finesse
Skills Climb +11, Hide +8, Listen +4, Move Silently +4, Spot +4, Swim +11
Disease (Ex): Filth fever—bite, Fortitude DC 11, incubation period 1d3 days, damage 1d3 Dex and 1d3 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Skills: Dire rats have a +8 racial bonus on Swim checks. Dire rats have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.
Dire rats use their Dexterity modifier for Climb and Swim checks.

1- OOOOO
2- OOOOO
3- OOOOO
4- OOOOO
5- OOOOO
6- OOOOO

Treasure: Hidden away among the refuse are some old mining items that the characters may find useful in the future, including a climber’s kit, a hooded lantern, 3 flasks of oil, a miner’s pick, 6 torches and 50 feet of hemp rope. Also included are a breathing mask, two miner’s helmets and miner’s outfits, a pickaxe and a rockhammer (see Wormfood Dragon 334). A careful search also turns up a small wooden chest containing 140 gp, 341 sp, an elixir of swimming, a scroll of burning hands, and a potion of reduce person.

I started the Whispering Cairn last week and so far my players are loving it. Last week we started with a variant of the mine office side trek (that I'll post in another thread) and this week the players went through the false tomb. We ended with the encounter with the acid beetle swarm. It was tough, but they made it through with only the loss of an animal companion.

For those who may be curious as to how to get the whole thing started, here's the text from the handout I gave to my instigators as suggested by the module:

The Latest Gossip in Diamond Lake

Amazing news is flowing through the streets of Diamond Lake. Adventurers have come to town! And not just any adventurers, these were real champions from the Free City of Greyhawk itself!
A man named Auric was the leader of the small group. He is a dashingly handsome man with well-coiffed blonde hair and a very muscular build. He has made no secret of the fact that he is the greatest gladiator from the Free City arena. He wears a unique red and black leather belt topped with the representation of a haunted female face. Those people who had been to the Free City games instantly recognized this as the Champion’s Belt of the Free City Arena.
A beautiful elven rogue seems to be the marksman of the group. She wears a blue cloak, red top, and black leather pants accented by black elbow length gloves and thigh high boots. She has introduced herself as Tirra and she appears very self assured, openly flirting with the rough and tumble crowd of the Feral Dog. She enjoys games of chance, and has challenged anyone who thinks they can take her in a dagger throwing contest.
The last member of the group is the more mysterious man Auric refers to as Khellek. This balding, dark-haired human wears a high collared red cape, clasped with a skull. Khellek is clearly older than Auric, although it was difficult to tell his age in comparison to the elf Tirra.

(Insert picture of Auric and company from the online supplement here).

Speculation runs rampant as to why they are here. This richly dressed trio has been frequenting the Feral Dog, Diamond Lakes’ most notorious (and dangerous) tavern. The small group has been asking a lot of question about the Stirgenest Cairn, one of the many ancient burial sites that are scattered about the Cairn Hills where Diamond Lake is located. Everyone in town, though, knows that there is nothing there of interest. The town’s youth constantly explore the ancient site, and have always found it completely empty of marvel and harmless to say the least.
But that isn’t the only site at which the youth of the town have played. It wasn’t common knowledge, but those children who had recently grown up in Diamond Lake knew of another cairn about a day’s ride outside of the town. The cairn is near an old iron mine that went dry about fifty years ago, and was abandoned a few years later when the manager mysteriously died. About a decade ago, several children found the nearby cairn while camping out by the mine. Since then, the town’s youth have dared each other to venture into the cyclopean entrance to prove their bravery. Most found the place too scary, for when the wind was just right, haunting and almost magical tones would emanate from the depths of the forgotten tomb. Those who have been to the tomb have called it the Whispering Cairn.
Visits to the Whispering Cairn became less frequent about six years ago when a girl mysteriously vanished while sleeping in the cairn. Now children still dare to go to the entrance of the tomb, but none enter. The secrets of the cairn have since remained undiscovered.
It stands to reason that if famed adventurers from the Free City have bothered to come to the inconsequential town of Diamond Lake, they must be in search of some hidden treasure. Right now they’re asking about the wrong place, but it would only be a matter of time before they learn of the Whispering Cairn.
Maybe a group of intrepid youth could investigate the Whispering Cairn first and plunder its hidden secrets? The office to the abandoned mine would serve as a perfect meeting place and base of operations for just such an expedition. Perhaps you should gather your friends and seek fortune and glory in the ancient halls of the Whispering Cairn.

Thanks! This is all helpful. It sounds like the adventures work out just fine for larger groups (just a little less deadly). The major drawback sounds like they lag a little in experience. I guess this can be partially made up with side treks. I know I'm going to start with a variant of the popular mine office side trek (modified to make it revolve around lizardfolk, maybe I'll post it here).

Any thoughts on treasure distribution along the way, or does it work itself out on average since the party is about one level lower than expected (and hence still receiving expected treasure per level because they are lower)?

Crazy Duck

Hi Everyone,

It's my first post here and I have a question about the AOW. I'm getting ready to start the Whispering Cairn this Friday and I need to know how many players the AOW adventures are scaled for. I've of course read the adventures themselves which say they are for four players, but there seems to be some disagreement on this board that they may be written for six players (though I wonder if this is confusion due to the Shackled City hardback).

James Jacobs, any way I could get an official answer to this so I know what to do? I have 7 players so it does matter. If its written for 6 players then I'm just fine, but if its only for 4 players then I need to up the encounters.

BTW, if it is only for 4 players has anyone addressed the issue of handing out extra treasure? Its easy enough to scale the encounters to handle more players (add more minions, etc.) but there isn't much guidance on adding treasure.

Crazy Duck