Cavalier's Charge and Horse Support Benefit

[Lanathar]

Can anyone see a way that these can synergise?

Cavalier's charge is 2 actions and basically combines a "Command" for two moves and a strike from the rider (with a +1 bonus).

Incidentally is the important part of this feat that you can attack at any point and keep moving which you wouldn't normally be able to do

To get the Support benefit for the horse you would need to command it to support (and one other action I assume)

So can these be combined? I assume it would have to be a command action to move and support and then two actions to "Cavalier's Charge". Does this work?

Or would a cavalier only benefit from the horse support benefit when not using the Cavalier's Charge feat?

[Michael Grate]

The way I understood everything to work with an animal companion is that when you use "Command an Animal" you use a single action with no die roll, giving your Animal Companion 2 actions that they can use freely leaving yourself with 2 more actions. The basic intent is that the horse uses it's support benefit, then strides and you attack using one of your 2 actions.

The way I think this is meant to work then is that the rider uses Command an Animal, the horse uses the support action then the Rider uses their last 2 actions on Cavalier's Charge. However, it feels like a bit of a stretch and I'm not sure it's supported by RAW (plus, going by this interpretation, the horse would get 4 actions with 2 of them being Strides from Cavalier's Charge).

The issue here (in my opinion) is that Cavalier's Charge is a 2 action Flourish feat. While it's hard to say what's an appropriate power level, looking at other actions with the Flourish trait, I don't think just a +1 attack roll bonus and the ability to attack in the middle of the horse's movement (something I thought was already possible to be honest) warrants said trait.

Normally something with this trait can allow for fairly high end actions that either save actions, negate penalties normally present, or both and tends to even include benefits on top of this. In this case and assuming you already couldn't attack while your mount was moving, it does negate a penalty but because of it's required action use, it also removes a benefit which costs 3-9 damage only giving back a +1 attack roll bonus. All things considered, it seems very underwhelming for a Flourish feat so while I don't know if RAW allows for the use of the Cavalier's Charge along with the Horse's support ability, I feel like RAI would.

That could just be my bias opinion though, since my first character from 1E was a cavalier.

All that said, my suggestion is if you're playing a home game, ask the GM if they would allow one of the 2 Strides to be replaced by a Support action.

[Lanathar]

This is kind of why I am asking - because the feat seems a bit underwhelming as written (if I am reading it correctly)

And it occupies the same level as one that makes your animal better

Also if the horse support benefit is not allowed then it reduces the incentive to pick a horse

So I was wondering if I had misread or misunderstood the usefulness

[beowulf99]

After re-reading the relevant feats, I don't think you could use the Horse Support benefit with Cavalier's Charge.

APG PG. 164 "Cavalier's Charge" wrote:

You Command an Animal to order your mount to Stride twice.

The feat does not indicate that this command is in any way different to the one command you can give your Animal Companion on your turn.

CRB PG. 634 "Minion Trait" wrote:

A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn and can’t use reactions. Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands.

Since you can only command the companion once, and Cavalier's Charge clearly states that you do so as part of the activity going so far as to state exactly what actions the companion takes, there is no available action for the horse to support you.

Honestly it is a different tool for a different job in my opinion. This effectively allows the Cavalier to charge 80 feet, making it's attack at any point during that movement, with a bonus. This can be used to effectively kite an enemy with less than 40 speed practically indefinitely. Even more so if you use the shiny new Riding Drake companion instead of the horse for that juicy 45 base speed.

And the bonus it grants is circumstance, which is nice in and of itself.

[Lanathar]

Missed the cap on minion actions. So you can't use the feat and support which was my initial thought anyway

[Ravingdork]

I didn't think the minion action cap applied when mounted, since you spend your actions with the mount on a 1 for 1 basis.

Now, if you were unmounted...then I think it would be limited to the normal two actions of a minion animal companion.

[beowulf99]

Ravingdork wrote:

I didn't think the minion action cap applied when mounted, since you spend your actions with the mount on a 1 for 1 basis.

Now, if you were unmounted...then I think it would be limited to the normal two actions of a minion animal companion.

Where do you see anything about a 1 for 1 basis on actions for mounted minions?

Nothing about mounting a minion changes the number of actions they gain, or when they gain them. That would be 2 actions when you spend an action to command them.

For reference:

CRB PG. 214 "Riding Animal Companions" wrote:

You or an ally can ride your animal companion as long as

it is at least one size larger than the rider. If it is carrying a
rider, the animal companion can use only its land Speed, and
it can’t move and Support you on the same turn. However, if
your companion has the mount special ability, it’s especially
suited for riding and ignores both of these restrictions.

That is the entire section on riding an animal companion. No mention of altering the way Animal Companions gain actions.

[shroudb]

The part about sharing actions is in "command an animal action" and isn't only about your mounts but in general for all Animals you "command".

Quote:

Most animals know the Leap, Seek, Stand, Stride, and Strike basic actions. If an animal knows an activity, such as a horse’s Gallop, you can Command the Animal to perform the activity, but you must spend as many actions on Command an Animal as the activity’s number of actions. You can also spend multiple actions to Command the Animal to perform that number of basic actions on its next turn; for instance, you could spend 3 actions to Command an Animal to Stride three times or to Stride twice and then Strike.

It doesn't apply to Animal companions, since

Quote:

Your animal companion has the minion trait, and it gains 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command it; this is in place of the usual effects of Command an Animal, and you don’t need to attempt a Nature check

What does apply for Animal Companions that you are Mounted is that you both Share MAP though since that's part of the general mounted combat rules and not part of the modified command action.

[Ravingdork]

Hm. Seems I'm used to non-animal companion mounts, like phantom steed, or regular horses.

Can someone give me an example of what a typical round on a mounted animal companion might look like? I'm having some difficulty wrapping my head around it.

EDIT:

So I can command my animal companion mount (1 action for me) to Stride twice (consuming all my AC's actions and moving up to 100 feet). I then have two actions left myself to Cast a Spell, make two Strikes, etc.

OR

I can use Cavalier's Charge (2 actions) to have my AC Stride twice (moving only 80 feet), consuming all its actions, and allowing me to make a single Strike. I then still have one action remaining.

Is that correct? The only benefit to Cavalier's Charge is being able to make a Strike during the move actions rather than having to wait until after the AC's actions?

[shroudb]

you can't break up the AC actions.

So, you can't as an example go "command->move to enemy with 1st AC action, strike, strike, move Away with 2nd AC's action"

The benefit of Cavalier's charge is that it breaks that, so you can keep attacking and moving away from the enemy in the same round.\

[Ravingdork]

I do believe I addressed that in my post. :)

[shroudb]

Ravingdork wrote:

I do believe I addressed that in my post. :)

yeah, i just answered to the "is this all it does" of your post by basically saying what it does instead of "yes"

i prefer it that way because another reader seeing a "yes" doesnt have to search what the yes was for but simply see it.