|
I know that "If your class would make you trained in a skill you’re already trained in (typically due to your background), you can select another skill to become trained in."
But I can't find anything similar for Feats.
A Cliffscale Lizardfolk with the Ruby Phoenix Enthusiast Background gains the Combat Climber Feat twice.
Are they just stuck with a dead Feat?
If they are, can they Retrain one of them? I don't see a restriction on Retraining your Background or Ancestry Feat...
Per RAW, you would have a dead feat unless you retrained.
A reasonable GM might give you a different climb-related or athletics related feat to compensate, but that wouldn't happen in, say, Society play.
|
|
By which I mean pick a different heritage or a different background and you'll be fine, rather than deliberately seeking out the same element from multiple sources.
That's easy to say now, in the infancy of Pathfinder 2, but as more options become published, this possibility increases whether the player is being "deliberate" or not .
If you can Retrain those feats, then you're truly never stuck with a dead option.
And that answers another question I was mulling over. All Lizardfolk gain Breath Control as a bonus General Feat. It's useful, but rather circumstantial. Toughness would definitely come up more often. They're both General Feats, so that satisfies the "replace it with another of the same type" requirement.
Looks like I'll have a lot of Retraining in my near future...
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If a player wants to create an Anvil Dwarf with the Artisan Background because it fits the stereotypical dwarven blacksmith theme, I don't think "responsibility" has anything to do with it.
It sounds like your main argument is intentionality.
Also, some Backgrounds matter beyond what Feats and Skills they give you. The Wavetouched Background matters for selecting the Wavetouched Paragon Feat, which increases the likelihood of being shoehorned into a future Ancestry/Background/Class combination as more material is published.
|
So it's possible to Retrain the Feats you gain from your Ancestry or Background?
I mean I can't find anything against it. Maybe I'm still stuck in a PF1 mindset.
No, you generally can't: Retraining rules require your 'new choice' to have been a valid option when you made your 'original choice' and since most options granted from Ancestry or Background are very specifically 'feat x' and 'skill y' there are no other valid options to retrain into.
I think there are a handful of 'x or y' options sprinkled in there that you might technically be able to retrain, but obviously those are not the ancestry/background options we are discussing as you could just take those options at character creation...
|
|
Downtime
Retraining offers a way to alter some of your character choices, which is helpful when you want to take your character in a new direction or change decisions that didn’t meet your expectations. You can retrain feats, skills, and some selectable class features. You can’t retrain your ancestry, heritage, background, class, or ability scores. You can’t perform other downtime activities while retraining.
Retraining usually requires you to spend time learning from a teacher, whether that entails physical training, studying at a library, or falling into shared magical trances. Your GM determines whether you can get proper training or whether something can be retrained at all. In some cases, you’ll have to pay your instructor.
Some abilities can be difficult or impossible to retrain (for instance, a sorcerer can retrain their bloodline only in extraordinary circumstances).
When retraining, you generally can’t make choices you couldn’t make when you selected the original option. For instance, you can’t exchange a 2nd-level skill feat for a 4th-level one, or for one that requires prerequisites you didn’t meet at the time you took the original feat. If you don’t remember whether you met the prerequisites at the time, ask your GM to make the call. If you cease to meet the prerequisites for an ability due to retraining, you can’t use that ability. You might need to retrain several abilities in sequence in order to get all the abilities you want.
|
|
Isn't that in reference to the above sentence, "You can retrain feats, skills, and some selectable class features"?
A Feat you earn from a Background or Ancestry isn't a "selectable" option. I think that passage refers to taking an X-Level Feat, and being unable to trade it out for an X+N Level Feat.
The examples seem to confirm that, as well, and don't list Ancestry or Background Feats as being restricted.
|
|
Isn't that in reference to the above sentence, "You can retrain feats, skills, and some selectable class features"?
A Feat you earn from a Background or Ancestry isn't a "selectable" option. I think that passage refers to taking an X-Level Feat, and being unable to trade it out for an X+N Level Feat.
The examples seem to confirm that, as well, and don't list Ancestry or Background Feats as being restricted.
Nope, it's a general rule that says 'if you couldn't have made this choice originally, you can't make it now.' As such, you can't retrain into something that wasn't an option in the first place.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, I would say "don't take redundant options." For your stated combination, you could just take a different background and say his experience at said tournament was just a little different from everyone else.
If you feel the need to take redundant options, then it seems like it's pretty much a dead feat.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
What is your opinion on Retraining Skills?
Could you have, to use thenobledrake's example, a Wizard without Arcana?
Nope, Arcana is not a 'choice' for a wizard, so you'd have to end up Trained at the very least.
Assuming you took Elven Lore at level one to get Trained in Arcana, then took another skill (like Crafting) when you became a Wizard, and then retrained your ancestry feat, you would still need to retrain 'Crafting' so that you are at least trained in Arcana as that skill is no longer a valid option.You could argue that the 'prerequisite' for taking Crafting was 'you are already trained in Arcana' and once you no longer are, you can't use your Crafting skill anymore, in which case you end up with neither Arcana nor Crafting until you retrain further...
Basically, if retraining gets you a character that you couldn't possibly have gotten without retraining, then you did it 'wrong'.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, the reason you can't find a general rule for selecting alternate feats, in case of redundancy, is that no such rule exists. Taja is also correct that Retraining never allows you to end up with something that could not have been selected in the first place. That isn't an opinion, it's just what retraining does.
|
|
Wait, what? I see a general rule that you can. I see it in three different locations, in fact. The section Taja quoted does not, to me, appear to restrict Retraining of Ancestry or Background Feats (and the reasoning for being unable to use Crafting is lost on me, since Skills do not have any requirements or prerequisites).
Pathfinder is a permissive rules system. You need text that tells you can do something. I see that here. I've linked to it. What I was looking for was clear evidence of any exceptions. All I've seen of that is Taja's interpretation that a restriction on level-based prerequisites somehow restricts Retraining of Ancestry and Background Feats.
I disagree that is a clear exception. It, by definition, is an opinion. It's an opinion I have noted, but it's still an opinion that lacks support for being clear or concrete.
I must be blind, or something. I am not seeing a link, anywhere in this thread, to a general rule that says "when you would gain a feat you already have, you can select another feat of the same type."
Where are these 3 locations?
|
|
"You can't retrain your ancestry, heritage, background, class, or ability scores." - this one makes it clear that you can't swap your background for another
Absolutely agree.
or even swap choices that the background happens to have given you for other choices you could have made within that background.
Cannot agree, but I can recognize why someone would think that.
From the original example of Cliffscale Lizardfolk and Ruby Phoenix Enthusiast: No you can't retrain either of those. The one is a heritage and the other is a background. Neither qualify for retraining.
Yes, they both grant your character the effects of the Combat Climber skill feat. Among other things. But you didn't actually select the Combat Climber skill feat. So you can't retrain Combat Climber, since you didn't select that feat in the first place.
Now, that being said, I see no reason that a reasonable player and GM couldn't homebrew up a nearly identical heritage or background that replaces the skill feat that it provides with something equivalent and thematically appropriate. That seems completely reasonable. But probably not something that you could do for PFS. For that either make sure that you either don't pick character build options that grant the same things, or just live with duplicated abilities.
|
|
Cannot agree, but I can recognize why someone would think that.If you believe that you can, to put a specific example to it, change the lore skill you chose with your Animal Whisper background, what other than "retraining your background" would you think the rules refer to that as?
Most Backgrounds consist of 4 things:
• The Background itself
• A Skill Feat
• Trained in a Skill
• Trained in a Lore
We know you can't Retrain Backgrounds. That's an explicit example. We know you can Retrain Skills. No exceptions listed there. And we know you can Retrain Feats. Exceptions are listed, with the examples including Level-based prerequisites and the like.
You can Retrain 3 of those 4 things. But you can't Retrain the Background itself. This does matter in a handful of cases, such as the Wavetouched Paragon I mentioned earlier. I believe there is another Background related to content from the new Legends book as well.
Any of those 3 things would take 7 days each to Retrain, which of course eats into your other Downtime activities.
Ask yourself this: Does it make sense that you can swap out your Background skills when you've already become Trained in them from your Ancestry/Class, but not Retrain them as the rules allow?
And does it make sense that an Anvil Dwarf can't be an Artisan without being stuck with a dead Feat they can't Retrain? Those are Core options, and rather iconic.
Pathfinder 2 is liberal with its Retraining. I was initially hesitant to believe this myself when I created this thread, but it's becoming more and more apparent (to me) the more we discuss it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I suggest altering your thinking on the selection. Think of it more as say i'm a Anvil Dwarf but I didn't train as a artisan because instead I was trained well enough as a anvil dwarf. Training with a artisan to be a artisan was unnecessary (They guy just kept telling me stuff I already knew) so instead I used that time to do X.
Cannot agree, but I can recognize why someone would think that.If you believe that you can, to put a specific example to it, change the lore skill you chose with your Animal Whisper background, what other than "retraining your background" would you think the rules refer to that as?Most Backgrounds consist of 4 things:
• The Background itself
• A Skill Feat
• Trained in a Skill
• Trained in a LoreWe know you can't Retrain Backgrounds. That's an explicit example. We know you can Retrain Skills. No exceptions listed there. And we know you can Retrain Feats. Exceptions are listed, with the examples including Level-based prerequisites and the like.
You can Retrain 3 of those 4 things. But you can't Retrain the Background itself. This does matter in a handful of cases, such as the Wavetouched Paragon I mentioned earlier. I believe there is another Background related to content from the new Legends book as well.
Any of those 3 things would take 7 days each to Retrain, which of course eats into your other Downtime activities.
Ask yourself this: Does it make sense that you can swap out your Background skills when you've already become Trained in them from your Ancestry/Class, but not Retrain them as the rules allow?
And does it make sense that an Anvil Dwarf can't be an Artisan without being stuck with a dead Feat they can't Retrain? Those are Core options, and rather iconic.
Pathfinder 2 is liberal with its Retraining. I was initially hesitant to believe this myself when I created this thread, but it's becoming more and more apparent (to me) the more we discuss it.
While you can split up how a background works that way, the point is that those trained skills and feats are what make the background, you know, the background. If you change any of those things, they are no longer that background, which means you are, in fact, changing the background itself. Which the rules do not allow.
The same can be said with Ancestries, Heritages, Class Choices, and Ability Scores. If you change any of the options or benefits of those things, you are in fact changing what those things are and what they give, which is a no-no for Retraining.
Ask yourself this: Does it make sense that you can swap out your Background skills when you've already become Trained in them from your Ancestry/Class, but not Retrain them as the rules allow?
You don't swap out your background skill. You swap out your class skill. Background comes before class in the character creation order of go.
|
The very first words in the retraining section are: "Retraining offers a way to alter some of your character choices." To me, it seems pretty clear that if you didn't choose it, you can't retrain it. You didn't choose the Skill Feats that came with your Background or Heritage, nor for that matter did you choose Breath Control for your Lizardfolk. None are valid choices for retraining.
|
|
Ask yourself this: Does it make sense that you can swap out your Background skills when you've already become Trained in them from your Ancestry/Class, but not Retrain them as the rules allow?You don't swap out your background skill. You swap out your class skill. Background comes before class in the character creation order of go.
"Each time after the first that you would gain the trained proficiency rank in a given skill, you instead allocate the trained proficiency to any other skill of your choice."
This character took Lizardfolk Lore as his Ancestry Feat. That grants trained proficiency in Nature and Survival. His current Background is Hunter (I say "current" because I haven't played him above 1st Level yet and might change it), which also grants Survival. His Class is Ranger, which also grants Nature and Survival.
The net result is three Skills of my choice.
|
|
Ask yourself this: Does it make sense that you can swap out your Background skills when you've already become Trained in them from your Ancestry/Class, but not Retrain them as the rules allow?You don't swap out your background skill. You swap out your class skill. Background comes before class in the character creation order of go."Each time after the first that you would gain the trained proficiency rank in a given skill, you instead allocate the trained proficiency to any other skill of your choice."
This character took Lizardfolk Lore as his Ancestry Feat. That grants trained proficiency in Nature and Survival. His current Background is Hunter (I say "current" because I haven't played him above 1st Level yet and might change it), which also grants Survival. His Class is Ranger, which also grants Nature and Survival.
The net result is three Skills of my choice.
This seems fine (so far)...
Now, if you try to retrain your character, you still need to end up at least trained in both Nature and Survival: There is simply no legal way to end up with a ranger without these skills. If you change your ancestry feat, the 'three skills of my choice' become 'Survival (from the background), Nature (from Ranger) and 1 skill of my choice (from Ranger)'.
Ask yourself this: Does it make sense that you can swap out your Background skills when you've already become Trained in them from your Ancestry/Class, but not Retrain them as the rules allow?You don't swap out your background skill. You swap out your class skill. Background comes before class in the character creation order of go."Each time after the first that you would gain the trained proficiency rank in a given skill, you instead allocate the trained proficiency to any other skill of your choice."
This character took Lizardfolk Lore as his Ancestry Feat. That grants trained proficiency in Nature and Survival. His current Background is Hunter (I say "current" because I haven't played him above 1st Level yet and might change it), which also grants Survival. His Class is Ranger, which also grants Nature and Survival.
The net result is three Skills of my choice.
In your example, the Hunter background gives you Survival. You then get a free choice from Ranger because your background already gave you Survival (in other words, swap out your CLASS skill, not the background skill). Then you get the free choices from the Lizardfolk Lore skill because of the language in that feat (in other words, you swap out the skill from the Ancestry Feat, not the background). At the end of the day, the Survival skill is still from your Hunter background.