The rogue level 1 feat seems almost useless in my eyes.
It's 2 actions but incurs map normally.
First attack is soley to setup the second Wich can sneak attack.
This issues I have is it seems so niche in use I'm not sure when I'd ever use it.
Flat footed is incredibly common. Most maneuvers of various kinds result in it and each rogue racket has an additional way to achieve them. Plus by level 8 you should really never have to worry about not getting sneak attack unless your literally fighting by yourself against an enemy you have no business fighting by yourself.
Is there some kind of synergy or use I'm not seeing right now? Even if it just didn't incur map until after both strikes I'd understand it more. As it is I'm struggling.
Because, against many enemies, spending 2 actions to get two attacks with the second one gaining the benefit of the enemy being flat-footed is better than spending an action moving first.
Rogue weapons very often benefit from being agile, so it is a trade off you have to evaluate based upon the enemy you are facing.
Not sure what's hard to understand, it's a way to gaurantee the target is flat footed on your second attack at level 1.
A Rogue isn't always going to be adjacent to an ally and can often find themselves solo with an enemy.
What better option for flat footed does a level 1 rogue have?
Rogue wins initiative, moves into range, twin feint and gets to sneak attack right away.
Consider that the MAP on your second attack will only be -2 with an agile weapon. And that 2nd attack will add sneak attack damage on a hit, which it otherwise won't, because presumably you did not use Twin Feint from a position where you could already sneak attack.
Contrast and compare to a Fighter's Double Slice: Both attacks at full attack bonus and damage added before applying resistances. If you start your attack being able to sneak attack, investing two feats into a Fighter dedication might be worth it.
Contrast and Compare to a Ranger's Twin Takedown: Only works on the hunted prey, does not mitigate MAP, but does add both attacks' damage for overcoming resistances.
Fighters just do damage, Rangers rely on their companion for bonus damage to make up for the lost damage potential through MAP, and Rogues rely on adding sneak attack damage. Twin Feint is a surefire way to get that on your second attack, if you have no other means of getting it.
Remember that moving into a flanking position yourself opens you up to becoming the squishy filling in a damage sandwich, when your target's buddies now flank and focus fire on you...
I use it all the time on my rogue for when he wouldn't otherwise get sneak attack.
It's great being able to move, attack, and attack vs flat-footed. Especially since being able to apply debilitation means I can apply various conditions/penalties to the enemy as befits the situation. That includes applying the flat-footed condition (once you have precise debilitation) which last until the end of your next turn, so you can keep the pain train going on the enemy. Or if someone moves into position to help you flank you can get additional damage/enfeebled/speed penalty (assuming thief racket).
The other rackets have methods of generating sneak attack, but thief is likely the most popular rogue racket.
Also, the rogue doesn't have any other options that avoid MAP, so it's not exactly like you have better options. The other options to help get sneak attack are restricted to other rackets.
Not sure what's hard to understand, it's a way to gaurantee the target is flat footed on your second attack at level 1.
A Rogue isn't always going to be adjacent to an ally and can often find themselves solo with an enemy.
What better option for flat footed does a level 1 rogue have?
Rogue wins initiative, moves into range, twin feint and gets to sneak attack right away.
Rogue's have Surprise Attack at Level 1. If they win Initiative, all of their Attacks get Sneak Attack that turn.
It's a poor feat because it adds nothing if you can flank or otherwise get your opponents flat-footed. If you can't though, then it's a boost in damage to your second attack.
I'd avoid it since I'd rather not bother with two weapons & the ring and fully expect to get flanking and/or want to skirmish in & out of danger anyway.
Rogue's have Surprise Attack at Level 1. If they win Initiative, all of their Attacks get Sneak Attack that turn.Not sure what's hard to understand, it's a way to gaurantee the target is flat footed on your second attack at level 1.
A Rogue isn't always going to be adjacent to an ally and can often find themselves solo with an enemy.
What better option for flat footed does a level 1 rogue have?
Rogue wins initiative, moves into range, twin feint and gets to sneak attack right away.
My experience thus far is that the majority of turns of combat Surprise Initiative doesn't apply.
There has also been a non-trivial number of times when combat started when I wasn't using stealth or deception before hand. Though nowhere near a majority, it's probably been about 10% of combats where as a party we're doing something and then we're found and combat starts.
It's a poor feat because it adds nothing if you can flank or otherwise get your opponents flat-footed. If you can't though, then it's a boost in damage to your second attack.
I'd avoid it since I'd rather not bother with two weapons & the ring and fully expect to get flanking and/or want to skirmish in & out of danger anyway.
In a traditional 4 person party I've always found flanking to be not that common, and mostly dependent on terrain. If there was a natural choke point between you and your enemy you could get it. But otherwise enemies would kind of split apart and putting 2 of your 4 party members in melee range of 1 enemy just wasn't that likely.
If you have larger parties, or a party composition where everyone is melee it can be different. But counting on flanking to get sneak attack hasn't worked well for me in the past.
Not sure what's hard to understand, it's a way to gaurantee the target is flat footed on your second attack at level 1.
A Rogue isn't always going to be adjacent to an ally and can often find themselves solo with an enemy.
What better option for flat footed does a level 1 rogue have?
Rogue wins initiative, moves into range, twin feint and gets to sneak attack right away.
Rogue delays initiative to flank the fighters target? That way you get both sneak attacks? This seems potentially better use of your turn. Why would the d8 martial want to run in first?
Edit: I agree if the d8 martial class enters into solo combat it has use. In my group experiences that's usually only happening with an NPc/enemy rogue though
Because, against many enemies, spending 2 actions to get two attacks with the second one gaining the benefit of the enemy being flat-footed is better than spending an action moving first.
Rogue weapons very often benefit from being agile, so it is a trade off you have to evaluate based upon the enemy you are facing.
Wich enemies? Outside of making a mistake and ending up in single combat by yourself I can't think of a situation where you wouldn't just flank with another marital, even delaying your initiative for it.
Consider that the MAP on your second attack will only be -2 with an agile weapon. And that 2nd attack will add sneak attack damage on a hit, which it otherwise won't, because presumably you did not use Twin Feint from a position where you could already sneak attack.
Contrast and compare to a Fighter's Double Slice: Both attacks at full attack bonus and damage added before applying resistances. If you start your attack being able to sneak attack, investing two feats into a Fighter dedication might be worth it.
Contrast and Compare to a Ranger's Twin Takedown: Only works on the hunted prey, does not mitigate MAP, but does add both attacks' damage for overcoming resistances.
Fighters just do damage, Rangers rely on their companion for bonus damage to make up for the lost damage potential through MAP, and Rogues rely on adding sneak attack damage. Twin Feint is a surefire way to get that on your second attack, if you have no other means of getting it.
Remember that moving into a flanking position yourself opens you up to becoming the squishy filling in a damage sandwich, when your target's buddies now flank and focus fire on you...
The comparison still makes it very lackluster. Plus by level 8 I see no reason to not train out of it entirely.
In my experience as a caster it's incredibly clunky getting 2 action melee range spells off without going into death saves next round. Rogue isn't much tankier and really should be relying on teamwork and running away when it can't. So I feel like it's just clunky and asking to die if you go in first regardless of the gauranteed sneak attack.
Combine that with it's overall seeming underpar mechanics I'm struggling to see the value.
As far as that flanking from enemies is considered that's only effective vs intelligent or pack animals but yes it's a risk. One that makes more sense in my mind.
I use it all the time on my rogue for when he wouldn't otherwise get sneak attack.
It's great being able to move, attack, and attack vs flat-footed. Especially since being able to apply debilitation means I can apply various conditions/penalties to the enemy as befits the situation. That includes applying the flat-footed condition (once you have precise debilitation) which last until the end of your next turn, so you can keep the pain train going on the enemy. Or if someone moves into position to help you flank you can get additional damage/enfeebled/speed penalty (assuming thief racket).
The other rackets have methods of generating sneak attack, but thief is likely the most popular rogue racket.
Also, the rogue doesn't have any other options that avoid MAP, so it's not exactly like you have better options. The other options to help get sneak attack are restricted to other rackets.
So you often have situations where you don't get sneak attack? Hasn't been my experience I guess. Thief is popular for dex to damage. It's good I prefer the other two though.
It's a poor feat because it adds nothing if you can flank or otherwise get your opponents flat-footed. If you can't though, then it's a boost in damage to your second attack.
I'd avoid it since I'd rather not bother with two weapons & the ring and fully expect to get flanking and/or want to skirmish in & out of danger anyway.
Kinda my thoughts. My groups tend to rely heavily on setup. So flat footed is rarely a concern.
Rogue's have Surprise Attack at Level 1. If they win Initiative, all of their Attacks get Sneak Attack that turn.Not sure what's hard to understand, it's a way to gaurantee the target is flat footed on your second attack at level 1.
A Rogue isn't always going to be adjacent to an ally and can often find themselves solo with an enemy.
What better option for flat footed does a level 1 rogue have?
Rogue wins initiative, moves into range, twin feint and gets to sneak attack right away.
My bad should've just said going first in a round
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Kinda my thoughts. My groups tend to rely heavily on setup. So flat footed is rarely a concern.
Then don't take it.
It's not supposed to be the ultimate go-to ability for Rogues, it's a way of guaranteeing a Sneak Attack when you have no other alternative available. And its fine for doing that.
Kinda my thoughts. My groups tend to rely heavily on setup. So flat footed is rarely a concern.
Then don't take it.
It's not supposed to be the ultimate go-to ability for Rogues, it's a way of guaranteeing a Sneak Attack when you have no other alternative available. And its fine for doing that.
If you say so. I still don't see it. Could use it for a assassin type NPC though.
Kinda my thoughts. My groups tend to rely heavily on setup. So flat footed is rarely a concern.It's a poor feat because it adds nothing if you can flank or otherwise get your opponents flat-footed. If you can't though, then it's a boost in damage to your second attack.
I'd avoid it since I'd rather not bother with two weapons & the ring and fully expect to get flanking and/or want to skirmish in & out of danger anyway.
I've never experienced a group that plays as tactically and consistently organized as you describe so a rogue being isolated for a turn happens rather often.
I've never experienced a group that plays as tactically and consistently organized as you describe so a rogue being isolated for a turn happens rather often.Kinda my thoughts. My groups tend to rely heavily on setup. So flat footed is rarely a concern.It's a poor feat because it adds nothing if you can flank or otherwise get your opponents flat-footed. If you can't though, then it's a boost in damage to your second attack.
I'd avoid it since I'd rather not bother with two weapons & the ring and fully expect to get flanking and/or want to skirmish in & out of danger anyway.
Alchemist with debuffs or buffs. Couple martials both Athletics focused. Sorcerer with intimidation. Snagging strike. Trip. Grapple. Flank. Intimidation. Various spells. Etc.
The fighter player thinks building soley for damage is a trap option since he's already +2 ahead on to hit and has all these class feats that strike+Rider effects.
So you often have situations where you don't get sneak attack? Hasn't been my experience I guess. Thief is popular for dex to damage. It's good I prefer the other two though.I use it all the time on my rogue for when he wouldn't otherwise get sneak attack.
It's great being able to move, attack, and attack vs flat-footed. Especially since being able to apply debilitation means I can apply various conditions/penalties to the enemy as befits the situation. That includes applying the flat-footed condition (once you have precise debilitation) which last until the end of your next turn, so you can keep the pain train going on the enemy. Or if someone moves into position to help you flank you can get additional damage/enfeebled/speed penalty (assuming thief racket).
The other rackets have methods of generating sneak attack, but thief is likely the most popular rogue racket.
Also, the rogue doesn't have any other options that avoid MAP, so it's not exactly like you have better options. The other options to help get sneak attack are restricted to other rackets.
I wouldn't say I didn't get sneak attack, but I had to generate the flat-footed condition to get it.
If you meant I didn't get flanking, then yes. I would say the majority of the time I'm not getting flanking.
I've never experienced a group that plays as tactically and consistently organized as you describe so a rogue being isolated for a turn happens rather often.Kinda my thoughts. My groups tend to rely heavily on setup. So flat footed is rarely a concern.It's a poor feat because it adds nothing if you can flank or otherwise get your opponents flat-footed. If you can't though, then it's a boost in damage to your second attack.
I'd avoid it since I'd rather not bother with two weapons & the ring and fully expect to get flanking and/or want to skirmish in & out of danger anyway.Alchemist with debuffs or buffs. Couple martials both Athletics focused. Sorcerer with intimidation. Snagging strike. Trip. Grapple. Flank. Intimidation. Various spells. Etc.
The fighter player thinks building soley for damage is a trap option since he's already +2 ahead on to hit and has all these class feats that strike+Rider effects.
My experience had been that the fighter is engaging another target most of the time, unless as I mentioned previously terrain creates a natural choke point.
So you often have situations where you don't get sneak attack? Hasn't been my experience I guess. Thief is popular for dex to damage. It's good I prefer the other two though.I use it all the time on my rogue for when he wouldn't otherwise get sneak attack.
It's great being able to move, attack, and attack vs flat-footed. Especially since being able to apply debilitation means I can apply various conditions/penalties to the enemy as befits the situation. That includes applying the flat-footed condition (once you have precise debilitation) which last until the end of your next turn, so you can keep the pain train going on the enemy. Or if someone moves into position to help you flank you can get additional damage/enfeebled/speed penalty (assuming thief racket).
The other rackets have methods of generating sneak attack, but thief is likely the most popular rogue racket.
Also, the rogue doesn't have any other options that avoid MAP, so it's not exactly like you have better options. The other options to help get sneak attack are restricted to other rackets.
I wouldn't say I didn't get sneak attack, but I had to generate the flat-footed condition to get it.
If you meant I didn't get flanking, then yes. I would say the majority of the time I'm not getting flanking.
...I've never experienced a group that plays as tactically and consistently organized as you describe so a rogue being isolatedKinda my thoughts. My groups tend to rely heavily on setup. So flat footed is rarely a concern.It's a poor feat because it adds nothing if you can flank or otherwise get your opponents flat-footed. If you can't though, then it's a boost in damage to your second attack.
I'd avoid it since I'd rather not bother with two weapons & the ring and fully expect to get flanking and/or want to skirmish in & out of danger anyway.
All those things I listed grant flat footed. Other character's actions can allow you to sneak attack.
Each racket has its own way to generate it as well.