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Community,
Looking to compare various Full Casters of different Traditions with different starting Ability Scores who use Transformation magicks to Polymorph into Forms to make Physical Attacks.
That is the general premise / question. I think the following three cases can be compared / contrasted below:
The Specialist
This character completely forgoes prioritizing their Casting Ability Modifier (INT, WIS, or CHA @ 12ish) in lieu of applying (nearly) all of their Ability Boosts towards Physical Stats. They focus their spell selection of Polymorph spells first, followed by spells that don't offer saving throws, spell attack rolls, or interact meaningfully with counteract.
Sample: ST 16, DX 14, CON 14
The Generalist
This character places their Casting Ability Modifier at the highest priority (INT, WIS, or CHA @ 18ish) and distributes their remaining Ability Boosts without heavily prioritizing Physical Stats. They spread their spell selection across the entire spectrum of spells afforded them by their spell list, casually adding Polymorph spells to their versatility.
Sample: ST 10, DX 12, CON 12
The Hybrid
This third case sits somewhere between these two extremes.
Sample: ST 14, DX 14, CON 12
...
Questions:
1) Is what the Specialist sacrificing worth the improvement they get in being able to use Polymorph spells with higher Ability Scores compared to the Generalist?
2) Does the Hybrid even occupy a meaningful space between these two extremes?
3) What role does Tradition play in the above questions?
Cheers!
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Man, stop deleting your topics while I'm typing an answer. :P
I get the Con, but what do you need Strength and Dex for? Unles you're casting polymorph below your level (bad idea because of their low AC and stats), the spell's attack bonus will nearly always be better than your own unarmed attack bonus. At least that's roughly what I remember the last time I checked. My memory might be off, mind you.
But as far as I know, even at a starting strenght of 16, you'll hardly ever get a better attack bonus than what the spell provides. Might be slightly different if you're using Wildshape, though.
But yeah, if I wanted to fight using Polymorph spells, I'd go full caster (i.e. 18 casting ability) and just memorize/learn a few of them. The investment in Strength is simply not worth it. Unless you want to play a gish anyway and use weapons outside of polymorph, of course.
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Man, stop deleting your topics while I'm typing an answer. :P
Sorry!
I get the Con, but what do you need Strength and Dex for? Unles you're casting polymorph below your level (bad idea because of their low AC and stats), the spell's attack bonus will nearly always be better than your own unarmed attack bonus.
How much better?
But as far as I know, even at a starting strenght of 16, you'll hardly ever get a better attack bonus than what the spell provides. Might be slightly different if you're using Wildshape, though.
How so?
But yeah, if I wanted to fight using Polymorph spells, I'd go full caster (i.e. 18 casting ability) and just memorize/learn a few of them. The investment in Strength is simply not worth it. Unless you want to play a gish anyway and use weapons outside of polymorph, of course.
Why?
Remember that Aerial Form uses Dexterity for attack. So you can focus on this one (it's the first you get as a Wizard and it gets up to level 7) if you want minimal investment.
Well, the polymorph spells overwrite your strength completely unless your unarmed attack bonus in your natural form is higher than the one granted by the spell.
Let's assume a Wizard starts with Str 16 and increases it at every opportunity. When he gets Elemental Form at level 9, his unarmed attack will be +15, maybe +16 if he has Handwraps. The spell grants a +18 attack bonus instead, making the investment in strength pointless*.
*Again, this asumes you only melee in melee while polymorphed. It's obviously a different story if you also use melee weapons in your natural form.
The same is true for Dragon Form. The wizard gets it at level 11, putting his unarmed attack bonus at +17 (maybe +19 with handwraps), while the spell grants a much better +22 attack.
If you happen to use Elemental Form at its original level as a 5th level spell at character level 11, you might get some mileage out of your strength by increasing your attack bonus in the form by +1. But you'd still be stuck with the level 5 version of all other statistics (damage, AC, Athlectics, temp HP), so using a polymorph spell that is not hightened as much as possible is usually a bad idea.
I haven't done a detailed analysis on all spells but for the few I've loked at, having more base strength didn't do much, if anything at all.
This of course is mostly true for casters. If you play a fighter who gets some polymorph spells via multiclassing, your own attack bonus will likely be much higher than that of the spell. But the stunted spell progression of a multiclass makes the use of Polymoph spells questionable.
Using the druid's Wild Shape instead of actual spell slots might change the numbers slightly since Wild Shape can provide an additional +2 status bonus if you use your own attack bonus, which will push it over your spell's bonus at some levels if you have high strength. But even then we're talking about a rare +1 or +2 attack. And since that's a status bonus, it won't stack with any buffs you might have available.
Druid wildshape with max str & items for max unarmed attack is always same or higher than same level battleforms. Even the best BFs fall behind quickly, 0 to 4 points.
Druid wildshape with max str & items for max unarmed attack is always same or higher than same level battleforms. Even the best BFs fall behind quickly, 0 to 4 points.
Care to give a few examples?
By my math, Wizard seems behind by AT LEAST 2 points most of the time and druid has the same attack bonus. Even if you add the +2 from Wild Shape (which is a bit unclear on how exactly it's applied in the first place), I don't see how you get 4 attack over a max level polymorph spell.
Druid wildshape with max str & items for max unarmed attack is always same or higher than same level battleforms. Even the best BFs fall behind quickly, 0 to 4 points.Care to give a few examples?
By my math, Wizard seems behind by AT LEAST 2 points most of the time and druid has the same attack bonus. Even if you add the +2 from Wild Shape (which is a bit unclear on how exactly it's applied in the first place), I don't see how you get 4 attack over a max level polymorph spell.
I've calculated Att and AC for wildshapes, all forms. It's not difficult to check the max Att value for the character.
Some examples:
Max char att vs Animal form, starting at lvl 3 up to 9:
1 2 0 1 0 1 0 2 (pos number mean better value for char).
char attc vs dragon form, level 11-16:
1 2 3 4 0 2 (again much better values for character att).
To be clear, this is max unarmed attack + max bonus for handwraps (based on level) + 2 for wildshape.
Some examples:
Max char att vs Animal form, starting at lvl 3 up to 9:
1 2 0 1 0 1 0 2 (pos number mean better value for char).
Shouldn't that be 2 3 0 1 0 1 0 2?
char attc vs dragon form, level 11-16:
1 2 3 4 0 2 (again much better values for character att).
Well, the +4 only happens because Dragon Shape as such a huge level gap between inital level and the level it can be hightened to. If you use the best available form at level 13 (dinosaur or Elemental Shape at +25), you'll actually be at a difference of 0 including Wild Shape's +2. Dragon Form also has has a worse attack bonus than elemental form at levels 11 and 12. So with an optimized spell choice, those number become a much less impressive 0 1 0 1 0 2.
To be clear, this is max unarmed attack + max bonus for handwraps (based on level) + 2 for wildshape.
Yeah, the problem with that +2 of Wildshape is that strictly by RAW, it only applies if your attack bonus is already higher without it. The Polymorph spells say you can use your unarmed attack bonus if it is higher and the Wildshape bonus only applies if you use your normal attack bonus. So - by RAW, even though most likely not RAI - you can't apply the +2 to any of your numbers below +3 in your examples.
I do agree that always being able to use your own bonus +2 makes much more sense, mind you.
But even so, starting at character level 3, always using the best possible form for attack bonus, you get
no benefit from high strength at seven different levels
+1 at six levels
+2 at four levels
+3 at one level.
That's slightly less than +1 attack on average AND you're basically immune to most buffs the party might provide. I would only go high strength on a Wild Druid if I plan to use a melee weapon (or the wild morph claws, I guess) regularly. For a character who relies on wildshape for all melee needs, base strength and high caster ability is probably the better choice overall.
For all non-Wild Shape Polymorph users, high strength is worthless UNLESS you frequently use lower level spell slots, which is probably not a great idea because you'll fall behind in AC and damage.
Yeah, the problem with that +2 of Wildshape is that strictly by RAW, it only applies if your attack bonus is already higher without it. The Polymorph spells say you can use your unarmed attack bonus if it is higher and the Wildshape bonus only applies if you use your normal attack bonus. So - by RAW, even though most likely not RAI - you can't apply the +2 to any of your numbers below +3 in your examples.I do agree that always being able to use your own bonus +2 makes much more sense, mind you.
No, that is not true. From the text in Wild shape: When you choose to use your own attack modifier while polymorphed instead of the form's default attack modifier, you gain a +2 status bonus to your attack rolls.
There is nothing here that says your attack already needs to be higher.
But even so, starting at character level 3, always using the best possible form for attack bonus, you get
Yeah, always using the best form, you might be right. But you not only need to consider the best form for attack, but also for AC/dam/movement(flying)/size, if you're going for wildshape. Plus, all forms, means that you have all those feats or retrain often. But, almost a +1 per level is quite a lot.
I'm no fan of wildshape, by the way. Just saying that an optimized wildshaper is always at least the same and usually better. But there are so many drawbacks to wildshape, that I'm not going to even try. Plus in my opinion you need to start as leaf or storm for that second focus point.
I've settled on an Animal companion druid. AC is tough, and druid can still be a caster. It's actually a storm/animal.
No, that is not true. From the text in Wild shape: When you choose to use your own attack modifier while polymorphed instead of the form's default attack modifier, you gain a +2 status bonus to your attack rolls.
There is nothing here that says your attack already needs to be higher.
Not in Wildshape, no. But every Polymorph spell I checked says
If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead.
So having a higher attack gives you the choice which you then can choose to get Wildshape's bonus. With no higher attack in the first place, you don't even get to choose.
Again, this is stricly RAW and most likely not RAI. Neither is it how I would run it.
Yeah, always using the best form, you might be right. But you not only need to consider the best form for attack, but also for AC/dam/movement(flying)/size, if you're going for wildshape.
True, I was looking only at attack bonus since that's the one thing a high strength has a chance to affect (well, that and Athletics, I guess). As I said before, if you use anything but the optimal form for attack on any given level, high strength does become more impotant.
But, almost a +1 per level is quite a lot.
Well, you still have 1 third of your adventuring career where it does literally nothing. Another third is wasted if you frequently have someone using a buff on you, which can happen somewhat frequently if you have a bard or cleric in your party.
I'm no fan of wildshape, by the way. Just saying that an optimized wildshaper is always at least the same and usually better. But there are so many drawbacks to wildshape, that I'm not going to even try. Plus in my opinion you need to start as leaf or storm for that second focus point.
I've settled on an Animal companion druid. AC is tough, and druid can still be a caster. It's actually a storm/animal.
That's an entirely dfferent discussion. I agree that Wildshape leaves much to be desired and would personally most likely default to the Storm circle if I ever get around to play a druid :)
Not in Wildshape, no. But every Polymorph spell I checked saysIf your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead.
So having a higher attack gives you the choice which you then can choose to get Wildshape's bonus. With no higher attack in the first place, you don't even get to choose.
Sorry, wrong again. Wildshape is it's own spell, the druid feats ADD forms from the spells to wildshape.
For example Insect shape: Your understanding of life expands, allowing you to mimic a wider range of creatures. Add the forms in insect form to your wild shape list.
So you don't cast the spells, you only use wild shape.
True, I was looking only at attack bonus since that's the one thing a high strength has a chance to affect (well, that and Athletics, I guess). As I said before, if you use anything but the optimal form for attack on any given level, high strength does become more important.
One of the strengths of Wildshaping is Form Control, forms last an hour. With char strength as attack value and AC growing with level, you actually don't loose too much, so the Char Att option is suddenly a LOT more important.
Meaning the actual value of Char Att is more than just the previously mentioned +1. A lot more.
Sorry, wrong again. Wildshape is it's own spell, the druid feats ADD forms from the spells to wildshape.
For example Insect shape: Your understanding of life expands, allowing you to mimic a wider range of creatures. Add the forms in insect form to your wild shape list.
So you don't cast the spells, you only use wild shape.
Except nowhere does Wildshape itself say it alows you to choose your own attack bonus. It only tells you what happens IF you choose to do so. But the choice is part of the Polymorph spell.
Wildshape even says
When you transform into a form granted by a spell, you gain all the effects of the form you chose from a version of the spell heightened to wild shape's level.
So being able to choose your own attack bonus is one of the effects of the spell you're emulating with Wild Shape.
That's how I read it, anyway.
But no matter, since it's (hopefully) not RAI, we should probably leave it at that.
One of the strengths of Wildshaping is Form Control, forms last an hour. With char strength as attack value and AC growing with level, you actually don't loose too much, so the Char Att option is suddenly a LOT more important.
Meaning the actual value of Char Att is more than just the previously mentioned +1. A lot more.
AC still seems a very good reason to stick with the highest level spell you can muster. A 6th level dragon shape is a whole 4 levels behind a 7th level elemental shape when it comes to AC, which is a HUGE difference. And since focus points are cheap to regain, there's not much keeping you from using dragon form for travel and Elemental form for combat. There's always surprise attacks, of course.
I'm not saying high strength isn't useful. Just that it doesn't do too much if you want your character to perform at their peak in polymorph melee.
lets agree to disagree on the first item, RAI is clear.
In some cases, yes AC depends on level, like Dragon. Some forms, no, like animal. Form control has two uses: 1) lasts an hour, 2) Circumvents size sometimes (one size smaller).
So for a wildshape druid specifically, it helps a whole lot to have an optimized str (or dex, as unarmed works for both), for a whole lot of levels, specifically if combined with Form Control. I'd say, almost a must.
Now if only you could have the option to use spell slots to heal yourself (heal self, use a spell slot, same effect as heal). If only they could add that as a feat, all of a sudden the Wild shape druid gets to be a lot more interesting.
In some cases, yes AC depends on level, like Dragon. Some forms, no, like animal.
Not sure I understand what you're saying here. Animal form does get a higher AC when hightened. Well, at 4th and 5th happen to have the same AC, but still both are higher than 3rd level, which in turn is higher than 2nd.
Form control has two uses: 1) lasts an hour, 2) Circumvents size sometimes (one size smaller).
So for a wildshape druid specifically, it helps a whole lot to have an optimized str (or dex, as unarmed works for both), for a whole lot of levels, specifically if combined with Form Control. I'd say, almost a must.
Ok, that's fair. Since Form Control lowers the spell's level by 2, you can much more easily have a higher natural attack bonus then what the lower level spell provides. I hadn't thought abut that. Good point.
it helps a whole lot to have an optimized str (or dex, as unarmed works for both)
The dex part might not be universally true. Aerial form specifically calls out dex-based unarmed strikes because its attacks are dex-based. Other forms list their attacks as strength-based. Not all unarmed strikes have the finesse trait. The most basic one "Fist" just happens to have it. But if a shape like Dragon Form refers to your unarmed attack bonus, it should still be Strength-based.
Now if only you could have the option to use spell slots to heal yourself (heal self, use a spell slot, same effect as heal). If only they could add that as a feat, all of a sudden the Wild shape druid gets to be a lot more interesting.
Let's hope the upcoming APG bings us many new shiny things like that :)
Character unarmed combat value -> hand stands for unarmed combat -> can be either str or dex.
As said earlier: druid feats add forms to the wildshape list. You're NOT casting the polymorph spell, you're casting the wild shape spell. The wildshape spell just uses some of the same forms. Not even all of them, so clearly a separate list. For example if you have soaring shape, you can add the flying dino to the list. If you don't have both, you can't add the same forms as with the spell.
Wild shape spell clearly states: use the druid unarmed combat value. Which is either str or dex.
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I'm 100% positive that you're wrong about the attacks. There is no rule saying that an unarmed strike always has the finesse trait. In fact there's plenty of examples without that trait in the book. The "unarmed attack bonus" basically just means use your armed proficiency.
Beyond that, an unarmed melee strike is primarily just that: a melee attack. And those are rolled with strength unless they specifically have the finesse trait.
Yes, the most common unarmed strike "fist" is finesse. But it's also agile and none lethal. Surely you wouldn't apply the latter two to all wildshape attacks? So why would you add finesse?
You could argue the RAW is that you never use your Dex, because substituting Dex for attack rolls is a unique feature of the Finesse trait, but battle form spells just reference your generic unarmed attack bonus, which doesn't mention any specific weapon and therefore would use default values (i.e. strength).
Either way kind of taking over the OP's thread a bit unfortunately with this back and forth.
Fist
Source Core Rulebook pg. 280
Price —; Damage 1d4 B; Bulk —
Hands 1
Category Unarmed
Group Brawling; Traits Agile, Finesse, Nonlethal, Unarmed
Unarmed Attacks
Source Core Rulebook pg. 278
Almost all characters start out trained in unarmed attacks. You can Strike with your fist or another body part, calculating your attack and damage rolls in the same way you would with a weapon. Unarmed attacks can belong to a weapon group (page 280), and they might have weapon traits (page 282). However, unarmed attacks aren’t weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifically say so.
Table 6–6: Unarmed Attacks lists the statistics for an unarmed attack with a fist, though you’ll usually use the same statistics for attacks made with any other parts of your body. Certain ancestry feats, class features, and spells give access to special, more powerful unarmed attacks. Details for those unarmed attacks are provided in the abilities that grant them.
That's saying if you're choosing to say you're kicking or headbutting instead of punching with your fists, as a regular humanoid PC, just use the same statistics. It is not saying all unarmed attacked are finesse or agile, etc.
You quoted, but didn't bold, the part that does apply
"Certain ancestry feats, class features, and spells give access to special, more powerful unarmed attacks. Details for those unarmed attacks are provided in the abilities that grant them." Those attacks list precisely what traits apply, no more, no less.
Seriously? Which specials apply to a simple unarmed druid attack? Simple unarmed druid attack value is str or dex. If by any chance the druid does have a special, by any means, apply that. But if that is not the case, you default to mentioned rules.
Ahh, sorry, had a bit of knee-jerk reaction there to people who have been claiming all unarmed/natural attacks are agile and finesse. That's not what you were saying.
What you are saying is that since a normal humanoid unarmed attack is finesse, you can calculate your 'own attack modifier' using either Str or Dex, to determine if its higher than the modifier provided by the form. There's no listed requirement for the attribute used to match the attribute underlying the form's bonus. You aren't saying that the traits on the fist get propagated to the form's attacks.
Yup, I buy all that. I can see why people might disagree, but I don't see a rule to hang that disagreement on.
To go back more on point to the initial question, I am wondering how well do the Battle forms from the Divine list fare versus the Primal & Arcane ones?
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Community,
To summarize the substantive contributions so far, in light of OP's questions, it looks as though:
Arcane
There is no appreciable difference between a Specialist and a Generalist. As in, there is no ST or DX combination that will yield a higher Attack Bonus or AC than what the various Form spells offer as a baseline.
Primal
A Specialist who prioritizes ST will be able, through the Wild Shape feat, to improve upon base Forms statistics for several levels. It is unclear whether this is true for the Hybrid as well.
Cheers,
Z
The baseline is not "fist". The baseline is your proficiency with unarmed strikes. The latter does not have any abilities associated with itself (other than the unarmed trait, of course).
If you use that proficiency for a melee strike, you always add strength UNLESS either the specific attack or the baseline has the finesse trait. Since the baseline doesn't have the trait and neither have most wildshape attacks, you use strength.
I'll say again that if you'd apply the fist's finesse trait, you would also apply their agile trait to all wildshape attacks since that's also a trait that affects the attack bonus.
In addition, what about a lizardfolk druid using a racial bite attack without finesse as his basic unarmed strike intead of his fist. Would finesse apply to his wildshape attacks?
And why are there polymorph spells like aerial form that specifically call out being dex based while others say they are strength based? Seems a bit redundant if you could simply apply either one all the time. And yes, I know they are affected by different debuffs (enfeebled vs clumsy) but that only strengthens my point since a finesse dragon bite should be affected by clumsy, not enfeebled.
Put me in the Con > Str camp.
Unless, as mentioned, Str is also being used for normal combat, which I wouldn't recommend. The spells make you viable in most areas except h.p. (or Fort Saves vs. all those monstrous effects!).
I think Form Control will get you killed in combat. It may aid in some extended noncombat tasks, yet you can usually recharge your Focus Points in that sphere anyway.
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I think Form Control will get you killed in combat. It may aid in some extended noncombat tasks, yet you can usually recharge your Focus Points in that sphere anyway.
Is your point here that you think investing in ST 14+ (the requirement for Form Control) is at the expense of doing so in either Primary Casting Stat or DX and CON?
I think Form Control will get you killed in combat. It may aid in some extended noncombat tasks, yet you can usually recharge your Focus Points in that sphere anyway.Is your point here that you think investing in ST 14+ (the requirement for Form Control) is at the expense of doing so in either Primary Casting Stat or DX and CON?
Nope. 14 Str isn't that taxing (and is likely only competing w/ Int & Cha for boosts).
The problem is in taking an inferior form and mistaking your PC for an at-level martial. You may survive as a poor-mediocre skirmisher, yet why invest a feat to be subpar? IMO it also tilts your options toward melee a tad much for a full caster. One shouldn't want to be reluctant to cast!
Form Control w/ max Str gives some good results on attack bonus, yet the lack of AC and a caster's h.p./saves will leave your PC vulnerable (despite the "I'm a ferocious beast!" feeling, perhaps w/ appropriate mini for further self-deception).
14 Str for MCD Barb (& Barb Resiliency, Master Fort, etc.) would serve better if focused on this route. Or Animal/Dragon Barbarian if one realizes "beast in melee" is one's primary wish.
The baseline is not "fist". The baseline is your proficiency with unarmed strikes. The latter does not have any abilities associated with itself (other than the unarmed trait, of course).
The rules say unarmed attack bonus in some places, unarmed attack modifer in others. These terms are vague and not precisely defined. However to calculate the total attack bonus or total attack modifer you have to take a specific instance to do that. It doesn't seem fair to not use the total modifer to the d20. Fist is the one universal example for a humanoid druid, and as we now is allowed to fill in for any standard unarmed attack on the basic humanoid form.
If you use that proficiency for a melee strike, you always add strength UNLESS either the specific attack or the baseline has the finesse trait. Since the baseline doesn't have the trait and neither have most wildshape attacks, you use strength.I'll say again that if you'd apply the fist's finesse trait, you would also apply their agile trait to all wildshape attacks since that's also a trait that affects the attack bonus.
In addition, what about a lizardfolk druid using a racial bite attack without finesse as his basic unarmed strike intead of his fist. Would finesse apply to his wildshape attacks?
No because the battle form spells ask specifically for the attack bonus, not any other property of the unarmed attack. The polymorphed druid is not attacking with their fist, just using that attack modifer. But if the druid has a specific bonus with a different particular unarmed attack you could probably use that in the calculation instead. (not aware of an example)
And why are there polymorph spells like aerial form that specifically call out being dex based while others say they are strength based? Seems a bit redundant if you could simply apply either one all the time. And yes, I know they are affected by different debuffs (enfeebled vs clumsy)
This is the only point you have raised that I feel is in your favour
The spell Aerial form mentions If your attack modifier for Dexterity-based unarmed attacks is higher. Elemental form mentions If your corresponding unarmed attack modifier is higher when talking about STR or DEX
I have vacillated a bit on this one. A specific mention in a two spells does not logically define the rule in the general case. It is however an inference.
Personally I'd like Paizo to come up with a precise ruling, because 1 or 2 points to hit make a big difference to tha viability of certain builds. This could be 3 or 4.
For myself I always will tend to interpret in the way than enables a build, not makes it pointless. But balance is a judgement call.
You get four stat boosts. Is this for starting stats? You can end up with a good str, dex, con, and spellcasting stat. Look at the progression of your class and what you want to do, plan accordingly while realizing your stats will be very good even if you don't start with an 18.
If you're planning to use mostly polymorph spells for attacking, you don't need a super high caster stat. You need enough to cast the spell and support spells to maximize your attack power. So focus on the stats that will allow you to maximize your ability to attack while polymorphed.
I would say Con, Str, then caster stat. AC appears set in battle form spells. Con is hit points. Str can be used for attack. Caster stat can be lower. And know they should all be good by the time you get caster forms good for battle.
If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead.
"Unarmed attack". Not "Fist".
Ignoring ability scores, your basic attack bonus is determined by your proficiency. You're not proficient with "Fist". You're proficient with "Unarmed Attacks" and use this proficiency for all unarmed attacks before applying each indvidual attack's traits. This does not include the finesse trait by default. Melee Unarmed Attacks allow you to add Strength as a baseline, not Dex. Period.
The form spells even specifically say "These attacks are Strength based". Trying to use Dex does not make an sense.
Anyway, Polymorph spells have a lot of weird issues like their unclear interaction with striking runes. I kind of doubt we'll ever have the design team sort those out because in the grand scheme of things, they are minor problems. I don't think discussing this any further will give any results.
As always: When in doubt, talk to your GM.
If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead."Unarmed attack". Not "Fist".
Yeah we are just not going to agree on that.
The form spells even specifically say "These attacks are Strength based". Trying to use Dex does not make an sense.
That quote is often followed by
"(for the purpose of the enfeebled condition, for example)"Not really helpful. Certainly not definitive Also they are a sequence of short sentences that aren't directly related to the next statement.
There are even some Form Spell like Avatar which give you no option to use your own attack bonus. Admittedly I think it would be very hard to get a higher attack value with casting a level 10 spell anyway.
For a pure Wildshape Druid is makes a small to hit difference. For a Fighter or Monk multiclassed into a Druid it is major.
Anyway, Polymorph spells have a lot of weird issues like their unclear interaction with striking runes. I kind of doubt we'll ever have the design team sort those out because in the grand scheme of things, they are minor problems. I don't think discussing this any further will give any results.As always: When in doubt, talk to your GM.
Yes each GM is going to have to sort it out for themselves.
Striking runes. Yeah not real clear either. The polymorph rules probably do stop them from working. But things like flaming handwraps probably do work as it is just additional damage.
When Druid use wild shape, you should realize that you're casting the wild shape spell, not the form spell.
From Wild shape:
Wild shape allows you to use your own shapeshifting training more easily than most polymorph spells. When you choose to use your own attack modifier while polymorphed instead of the form's default attack modifier, you gain a +2 status bonus to your attack rolls.
This clearly overwrites the text from the morph spell, for example the text included in the Dragon form:
One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to the battle form you choose, which are the only attacks you can use. You're trained with them. Your attack modifier is +22, and your damage bonus is +6. These attacks are Strength based (for the purpose of the enfeebled condition, for example). If your unarmed attack modifier is higher, you can use it instead.
The bolded part in the wild shape description clearly says that wild shape att modifier trumps the own form text.
As the text for Wild shape should than be leading, it means the druids own attack modifier can be used.
To take it one step further: I can even make a point that the text specifically mentions ATTACK MODIFIER, without any reference to UNARMED, which might indicate that druids shapeshifting is so good that they can incorporate their weapon into their shapeshift, and thus can use any weapon they are also using in normal form. At 18th level, my +3 greater flaming, holy, keen, major striking sickle would work wonders (except for the striking part...).
We're running in circles now. We have different interpretations of the same text. This'll most likely be my last post on the matter, just to make my point clear one last time (not that I expect to convince anyone).
When Druid use wild shape, you should realize that you're casting the wild shape spell, not the form spell.
From Wild shape:
Wild shape allows you to use your own shapeshifting training more easily than most polymorph spells. When you choose to use your own attack modifier while polymorphed instead of the form's default attack modifier, you gain a +2 status bonus to your attack rolls.
First of all, the bolded part is fluff and simply explains in-world why you can get an additional +2.
And you left out the most important part of Wild Shape:
When you transform into a form granted by a spell, you gain all the effects of the form you chose from a version of the spell heightened to wild shape's level
Wildshape specifically tells you that you use the effects of the spell. Yes, you're casting Wild Shape, not animal form, but all Wild Shape does is giving you the same effects as casting the spell.
This clearly overwrites the text from the morph spell, for example the text included in the Dragon form:
One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to the battle form you choose, which are the only attacks you can use. You're trained with them. Your attack modifier is +22, and your damage bonus is +6. These attacks are Strength based (for the purpose of the enfeebled condition, for example). If your unarmed attack modifier is higher, you can use it instead.The bolded part in the wild shape description clearly says that wild shape att modifier trumps the own form text.
Wild Shape does not say you can choose to use your attack bonus. The ability to choose is one of the form spell's effects, which Wild Shape duplicates. And when you choose to do so via the spell's effect, then you can get a +2 bonus. But the choice comes from the Form Spell, not Wild Shape.
To take it one step further: I can even make a point that the text specifically mentions ATTACK MODIFIER, without any reference to UNARMED, which might indicate that druids shapeshifting is so good that they can incorporate their weapon into their shapeshift, and thus can use any weapon they are also using in normal form. At 18th level, my +3 greater flaming, holy, keen, major striking sickle would work wonders (except for the striking part...).
Wild Shape doesn't need to reiterate that it's talking about the unarmed attack bonus because the effect which the choice is based on (i.e. the form spell) specifically calls it out to be your unarmed attack.