Multi-Attack penalty with spells ?


Rules Discussion


A player of mine has picked up the focus spell
"Draconic Barrage"
You shape energy into one incorporeal tiny dragon (or
serpentine creature) that flits around you. The specific dragon
is random; roll 1d6 on the table below for each dragon evoked
to determine which type of dragon you create. While the spell
persists, you can command one of your dragons to spit a missile
of energy at a creature within 60 feet by using a single action,
which has the concentrate trait. This is a ranged Strike that
uses your spell attack bonus and deals 1d6 damage plus your
spellcasting ability modifier, with the damage type depending
on the dragon. A dragon’s breath Strike uses and contributes to
your multiple attack penalty. Once a dragon has used its breath
Strike, it winks out of existence; when you have no dragons
remaining, the spell ends.
Heightened (+1) You shape 1 additional dragon, and the Strike
damage increases by 1d6.

My question is, what is the multiattack penalty if you fire more than one 'dragon missile' per round?
It says it is a Ranged Strike so I am assuming it it -5 ?


yes, because it's a ranged Strike that isn't specified to be agile it uses the standard MAP penalty of -5 and -10.


The Draconic Barrage spell itself is not an attack spell. Instead, it evokes a tiny energy dragon that is a lot like a familiar and lasts for 1 minute.

When the spellcaster commands the tiny dragon to attack, the dragon attacks with its energy missile. For the spellcaster, that is a command action. For the dragon, that is an attack. Thus, if the spellcaster commanded the dragon to attack three times during one turn, the attacks would have a +0, -5, and -10 multiple attack penalty respectively. The attacks do not have any special properties, such as agile, that would change the multiple attack penalty.

EDIT: Oops, I had overlooked the line, "Once a dragon has used its breath Strike, it winks out of existence; when you have no dragons remaining, the spell ends." Thus, an individual dragon never gets to attack twice. Ordinarily, it would never suffere a multiple attack penalty, becuase it never makes a second attack.

But another line I overlooked said, "A dragon’s breath Strike uses and contributes to your multiple attack penalty." That is very weird. This is the first time I have seem multiple creatures sharing a multiple attack penalty. The only way to explain this clearly is that the dragons are an aspect of the spellcaster and the spellcaster is the mind behind every attack rather than the dragons having minds of their own. Thus, Kennethray's answer is correct. Treat the dragon attacks as the spellcaster's own attacks for multiple attack penalties. This means that if the spellcaster attacks with two dragon missles followed by a Strike by an agile weapon in his own hand, then the attacks would have multiple attack penalties of +0, -5, and -8, where the -8 is because of the agile weapon trait.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Except it says the dragons strike uses your MAP. So I do not think that each could attack at no map.


So you generally should never shoot more than 2 dragons per round unless you have something going on (such as a flurry ranger sharing his prey).

Once you have some levels on you, it is actively hard to use up all of the dragons in a fight.

Sczarni

Mathmuse wrote:
That is very weird. This is the first time I have seem multiple creatures sharing a multiple attack penalty.

Also happens when you're Mounted.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
That is very weird. This is the first time I have seem multiple creatures sharing a multiple attack penalty.
Also happens when you're Mounted.

And you arent summoning real tiny dragons anyway. Nothing about the spell suggests that.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Malk_Content wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
That is very weird. This is the first time I have seem multiple creatures sharing a multiple attack penalty.
Also happens when you're Mounted.
And you arent summoning real tiny dragons anyway. Nothing about the spell suggests that.

It has the evocation tag, not the conjuration tag. The dragons are just stores of the spell's energy and a stylistic thing.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
lemeres wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
That is very weird. This is the first time I have seem multiple creatures sharing a multiple attack penalty.
Also happens when you're Mounted.
And you arent summoning real tiny dragons anyway. Nothing about the spell suggests that.
It has the evocation tag, not the conjuration tag. The dragons are just stores of the spell's energy and a stylistic thing.

That's what I meant, there isnt any independent entity to share MAP with in the first place.


Between the beautiful smoky dragons in the art on page 118 of Gods & Magic, the sentences such as, "While the spell persists, you can command one of your dragons to spit a missile of energy ...," and being half-asleep at 10:30pm last night, I was fooled into thinking of the dragons as little entities. Little dragons fit the theme of the wyrmkin domain elegantly, little bundles of energy fit less well.

Nevertheless, the actual mechanics of the spell acts as if these little dragons are nothing more than bundles of energy shaped like dragons. They are evoked rather than summoned, they cease to exist when the energy is expended, and the multiple attack penalty acts as if the spellcaster conducted the attacks him- or herself. The dragon theme is merely a colorful wrapper on an evocation spell about the spellcaster shooting energy missiles.

I apologize for misinterpreting the spell before my edits.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Rules Discussion / Multi-Attack penalty with spells ? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.