Sword & Board Riposting

[EKruze]

For the Fighter the Dueling and Two Weapon Fighting styles have have a Riposte feat allowing a strike to be made against a foe that critically fails an attack roll. In addition to this there exists 'Improved Twin Riposte' which grants an additional reaction to make a Twin Riposte and which can be used even if the Fighter is not benefiting from Twin Party, the first of the three-feat chain it comes from.

Could a Sword & Board Fighter take all three feats in this chain to enable Riposting with Shield in hand? They would meet the criteria of wielding a weapon in each hand so long as they use a Shield Spike and while Twin Party would be a little bit wasted as a feat for the Fighter who will be relying on raise a shield instead of the parry action the wording of Improve Twin Riposte would seem to allow this.

Am I overlooking something in my reading or should this work?

[Aratorin]

If you have a Shield Spike or Shield Boss, yes that works fine.

[ChibiNyan]

Even the regular shield with no spikes or Boss counts as a weapon (I believe)! So if you want to use it, yep! Aciton economy might be tight even with extra reactions if you wanna raise shield + TWF and then also Shield Block and Riposte.

[Nefreet]

In this edition, a shield is not a weapon until you "weaponize" it with a spike or a boss.

[HammerJack]

A shield is not a weapon, and a shield bash, while it has stats on the weapon table, is also not actually a weapon (pee the description of shield bash). So you would need the boss or spikes.

[EKruze]

HammerJack wrote:

A shield is not a weapon, and a shield bash, while it has stats on the weapon table, is also not actually a weapon (pee the description of shield bash). So you would need the boss or spikes.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=217

This would seem to suggest that a shield can be used as a weapon independent of shield spike or boss.

As to that even being necessary I wonder if it's the case. The trigger for Twin Riposte is that an enemy critically fail an attack and the requirement is that the Fighter be benefiting from Twin Parry. Improved Twin Riposte removes that requirement. Reading exactly as written could you say that it's not even necessary to wield two weapons to activate Improved Twin Riposte? Perhaps it could even be activated by a two-hand fighter?

[Nefreet]

You can bash with a shield.

It is not a weapon.

Shield Spikes and Shield Bosses are weapons.

This is one of the most misunderstood topics in Pathfinder 2. If you don't believe us, simply search the Rules Forum for confirmation. It need not be debated in yet another thread.

[EKruze]

Thank you for trying to keep the thread on topic Nefreet. There are indeed many threads which seem to go both ways on the topic of shields as weapons.

It seems plain that they can be used as weapons when attacking which qualifies them for use with feats such as Double Slice. I think the pertinent questions here are:

1) Does a Shield count as a weapon when not attacking, such as to fulfill the requirements of Twin Parry? - So far the consensus seems to be yes.

2) Is it necessary to fulfill the requirements of Twin Parry in order to use the reaction granted by Improved Twin Riposte?

As to the second question that seems a little harder. Improved Twin Riposte states that it removes the requirement that a Fighter be benefiting from Twin Parry in order to activate Twin Riposte with the extra granted reaction. Removing the requirement from Twin Riposte the feat is left with only the Trigger (a foe critically fails an attack) and the Effect (allowing a strike). This would seem contrary to the intended reading of the feats but I can see nothing that specifically contradicts this.

If the answer to question 2 is yes then the same argument might be applied to Improved Dueling Riposte potentially allowing a S&B Fighter or even 2-Hand Fighter to use two extra reaction Ripostes in a turn if multiple attacks against them critically fail (by spending six feats on both the Dueling Parry and Twin Parry lines).

What do you think?

[Nefreet]

If you put spikes or a boss on your shield, you can do those things.

Without a boss or spikes, you cannot, because a shield is not a weapon.

[voideternal]

2) is an interesting question. I don't see anything that immediately denies your claim. From just the base reading, it seems like a fighter can improved dueling / twin riposte with a greatsword. It sounds wrong though.

[Aratorin]

voideternal wrote:

2) is an interesting question. I don't see anything that immediately denies your claim. From just the base reading, it seems like a fighter can improved dueling / twin riposte with a greatsword. It sounds wrong though.

That also means you have dead Feats at 2 and 8, or 4 and 10, to enable a fairly meh Feat at 12 or 14. So while almost definitely not Intended, it's not really OP either, especially considering all the Feats you'd be skipping are much better if you are going 2HW.