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As I was doing some thinking about a new PC for a 1E game, I realized two big holes in archetype genres in 2E that I really miss, and thought I’d put a post up to see if others felt the same. The first kind, which I don’t think 2E can do, is when it would be an amalgam of the class with some other class feature(s). Archeologist Bard, Phantom Blade Spiritualist, Sanctified Slayer or Sacred Huntmaster Inquisitor, Sacred Fist Warpriest, and so forth . I guess MC Archetypes now fulfill this, but it just doesn’t feel as fun to me.
The other thing I miss, and that I think 2E could do really well, is object-oriented archetypes. So here I am thinking of things like the Black Blade Magus, Namekeeper Shaman, Cartomancer Witch – anything that has an interesting object that provides story/RP opportunities. Would love to see such things in future products.
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If Class Archetypes don't truly show up eventually I think the designers will be making a huge mistake. The best part about PF1e was how you could have meaningful mechanical differences while maintaining some aspects of the class that fit this new concept.
Granted, some archetypes were just the min-max players' wet dream, while ohers were too janky to work well and some even did nothing (Totem Barbarian), but many of them were very interesting both mechanically and flavor-wise. My favorite archetypes were those that allowed me to fundamentally change the type of character I could make with that class, things like Urban Barbarian, Watersinger Bard, Holy Gun Paladin , Tattooed Sorcerer, Dervish Dancer Bard, Archaeologist Bard, Ecclesitheurge, Zen Archer Monk, Warrior Poet Samurai, Sword-Saint Samurai, Mindblade Magus, Eldritch Archer and so many other amazing archetypes that I don't even know about. These were all great even if not all of them fully realized what they were going for or had issues with their implementation.
Currently, most archetypes aren't that interesting mechanically, for me. Although they haven't been lacking in the flavor department at all. But as long as they need to be designed with all classes in mind, they will pay with mechanical impact.
I don't know exactly how they will work in this edition since a lot of what the archetypes did before are done by this new edition's class paths, class feats and other normal archetypes (even more so with how multiclassing works), but I think those that fit the requirements for a true archetype will feel even more special than before.
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Class archetypes will typically be for when you need to remove something from the core chassis to get the concept to work. Lightning Raven, you're right that at least half your examples would probably be even easier to just add in as instinct/muse style options or class feats in PF2, allowing more versatility and customization. Look at what you couldn't get without subtracting a feature that needs to be gone for that concept to work: that needs to be a class archetype. Theoretically it would be possible to write a class archetype that didn't need to remove class features, but in that case, the other tools are more flexible for character-building and allow a bigger diversity of characters, since anyone could take the options, not just someone with the archetype.
That all said, back to the OP, having cool items is always good fun. And relics from GMG are one way to get a scaling item without an archetype.
We are still pretty early in the lifecycle of this system still. I expect both of these things to be solved I'm the future. They have already set some precedent for how to handle hybrid abilities with the Magical Trickster rogue feat. It does not require "Minor Magic" to function, so it plays very nice with multiclassing.
To be honest I doubt that we will see Class Archetypes in the APG and it will instead in focusing in common archetypes to increase the number of options for all characters.
In the Pathfinder discord we are counting the archetypes revealed from small spoilers and streams and pretty much already passed 20 without the 4 multiclass ones and none of them screams class archetype.
To be honest I doubt that we will see Class Archetypes in the APG and it will instead in focusing in common archetypes to increase the number of options for all characters.
In the Pathfinder discord we are counting the archetypes revealed from small spoilers and streams and pretty much already passed 20 without the 4 multiclass ones and none of them screams class archetype.
I'm fairly certain class archetypes have been confirmed already. Plus, those 20 archetypes you've counted are only half of what will be in the book.
I'm fairly certain class archetypes have been confirmed already. Plus, those 20 archetypes you've counted are only half of what will be in the book.To be honest I doubt that we will see Class Archetypes in the APG and it will instead in focusing in common archetypes to increase the number of options for all characters.
In the Pathfinder discord we are counting the archetypes revealed from small spoilers and streams and pretty much already passed 20 without the 4 multiclass ones and none of them screams class archetype.
They have not been confirmed. Folks were thinking the kyudo themed monk archer options would be a class archetype, but I have confirmed that they are not (any monk can use them!)
They have not been confirmed. Folks were thinking the kyudo themed monk archer options would be a class archetype, but I have confirmed that they are not (any monk can use them!)I'm fairly certain class archetypes have been confirmed already. Plus, those 20 archetypes you've counted are only half of what will be in the book.To be honest I doubt that we will see Class Archetypes in the APG and it will instead in focusing in common archetypes to increase the number of options for all characters.
In the Pathfinder discord we are counting the archetypes revealed from small spoilers and streams and pretty much already passed 20 without the 4 multiclass ones and none of them screams class archetype.
Ah, my bad then! Still hoping we see them soon (primarily so I can see how they work and get to homebrewing my own) but I'll temper my expectations a bit
My guess is that the monk with 10th level spells is going to be a class archetype!
I also am waiting with baited breath for a class that has a weapon that levels with them or they can summon, like black blade magus or spirit blade spiritualist. I do realize that relics exist, but they feel so unofficial, like I didn't earn them. Besides I'm sure they're impossible or near impossible to get in pfs. I just like the kind of stuff you want to build your character around in the hands of the players, rather than the GM. I know that's not really what second edition is about and I probably shouldn't bring that topic up though.
Stuff like relics definitely feels like it needs to be the whole group or nobody. It'll be nice when we get some archetypes that allow getting some item stuff as part of the character's individual kit.
My guess is that the monk with 10th level spells is going to be a class archetype!
My bet is that it’s a level 20 monk feat.
My guess is that the monk with 10th level spells is going to be a class archetype!My bet is that it’s a level 20 monk feat.
This, especially since it seems to only be a single ability (akin to a Polymorph Battle Form from what I can tell) rather than spellcasting.
Monks low-key are a full-caster class now.
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They have not been confirmed. Folks were thinking the kyudo themed monk archer options would be a class archetype, but I have confirmed that they are not (any monk can use them!)I'm fairly certain class archetypes have been confirmed already. Plus, those 20 archetypes you've counted are only half of what will be in the book.To be honest I doubt that we will see Class Archetypes in the APG and it will instead in focusing in common archetypes to increase the number of options for all characters.
In the Pathfinder discord we are counting the archetypes revealed from small spoilers and streams and pretty much already passed 20 without the 4 multiclass ones and none of them screams class archetype.
*cue wailing and gnashing of teeth from me*
I know this isn’t confirmation that they aren’t in, and I don’t read it as such, but it does sound like expectation management ahead of us finding that out.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
They have not been confirmed. Folks were thinking the kyudo themed monk archer options would be a class archetype, but I have confirmed that they are not (any monk can use them!)I'm fairly certain class archetypes have been confirmed already. Plus, those 20 archetypes you've counted are only half of what will be in the book.To be honest I doubt that we will see Class Archetypes in the APG and it will instead in focusing in common archetypes to increase the number of options for all characters.
In the Pathfinder discord we are counting the archetypes revealed from small spoilers and streams and pretty much already passed 20 without the 4 multiclass ones and none of them screams class archetype.
*cue wailing and gnashing of teeth from me*
I know this isn’t confirmation that they aren’t in, and I don’t read it as such, but it does sound like expectation management ahead of us finding that out.
I'm gonna be more interested in class archetypes once we have a good selection of general archetypes to draw on and plenty of class paths.
To be honest I doubt that we will see Class Archetypes in the APG and it will instead in focusing in common archetypes to increase the number of options for all characters.
In the Pathfinder discord we are counting the archetypes revealed from small spoilers and streams and pretty much already passed 20 without the 4 multiclass ones and none of them screams class archetype.
Do you have a list? I'm curious!
I'm gonna be more interested in class archetypes once we have a good selection of general archetypes to draw on and plenty of class paths.
Agreed. I love class archetypes, and I'm super stoked for them, but other parts need fleshing out pretty badly.
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Do you have a list? I'm curious!To be honest I doubt that we will see Class Archetypes in the APG and it will instead in focusing in common archetypes to increase the number of options for all characters.
In the Pathfinder discord we are counting the archetypes revealed from small spoilers and streams and pretty much already passed 20 without the 4 multiclass ones and none of them screams class archetype.
Pirate, acrobat, duelist, beast master, bounty hunter, poisoner, scout, assassin, archaeologist, archer, eldritch archer, cavalier, dragon disciple, shadowdancer, vigilante, familiar master, iron wall, armored sentinel, dandy and diva.
Dandy and Diva take with a grain of salt because it was a offhanded comment from a developer when mentioning designing cool abilities and reviewing the freelancer works with archetypes.
With Eldritch Archer as an Archetype and Trickster as a Racket we kinda expect Knight be there in a way too.
With Duelist and Archer looking like combat archetypes for one handed and archery we can kinda expect archetypes for two handed and dual wield as well.
Most of the information was taken from the Gencon from last year when they revealed the APG, the closing of the playtest stream and the product page.
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Somehow Class archetypes weren't even on my radar as a possibility since so much of the classes comes in the form of feats, I just assumed they weren't needed/likely - glad to hear I'm wrong.
Well, I feel like this thread is a win since I know Mark has at least read and responded. Just wanted to voice the desire and have designers take notice.
Do you have a list? I'm curious!To be honest I doubt that we will see Class Archetypes in the APG and it will instead in focusing in common archetypes to increase the number of options for all characters.
In the Pathfinder discord we are counting the archetypes revealed from small spoilers and streams and pretty much already passed 20 without the 4 multiclass ones and none of them screams class archetype.
Pirate, acrobat, duelist, beast master, bounty hunter, poisoner, scout, assassin, archaeologist, archer, eldritch archer, cavalier, dragon disciple, shadowdancer, vigilante, familiar master, iron wall, armored sentinel, dandy and diva.
Dandy and Diva take with a grain of salt because it was a offhanded comment from a developer when mentioning designing cool abilities and reviewing the freelancer works with archetypes.
With Eldritch Archer as an Archetype and Trickster as a Racket we kinda expect Knight be there in a way too.
With Duelist and Archer looking like combat archetypes for one handed and archery we can kinda expect archetypes for two handed and dual wield as well.
Most of the information was taken from the Gencon from last year when they revealed the APG, the closing of the playtest stream and the product page.
Ooh some of these are news to me! Thanks for summarizing. I didn't know they revealed more when they initially revealed the APG. Acrobat, duelist, bounty hunter and scout are all archetypes I had no idea about.