Lamia's missing athletics

[CraziFuzzy]

The Lamia has no athletics score listed in its statblock, which implies it is Untrained in Athletics. This, however, makes its Grab ability have a very easy DC15 escape DC - quite low for a Creature 6.

Is this an oversight, and should they actually be Trained in Athletics (+13, so DC-23)? What makes me say this is that the Lamia Matriarch appears to be Expert in Athletics, with its +18 Athletics modifier.

[thenobledrake]

Monsters don't exactly use the trained/expert/master/legendary levels of proficiency, they just have modifiers relevant to their role with a skill.

However, yes, a Lamia should have a DC somewhere in the realm of relevant to its level (so in the territory of 22) to escape it since monsters are meant to be "good at" the things listed in their stat blocks.

[RJGrady]

Considering it's a freebie on every claw attack, I think it's fine it's easy. They already have a ton of skills and complex abilities.

[Aratorin]

RJGrady wrote:

Considering it's a freebie on every claw attack, I think it's fine it's easy. They already have a ton of skills and complex abilities.

It's not Free. The Lamia has to spend an extra Action. However, no matter the DC, you're either fine staying Grabbed, because you're a Melee character and have no intention of withdrawing, or your wasting an action to Escape. Either way works for the Lamia.

[RJGrady]

I think it's actually better thematics for the lamia to not lock down characters pretty much every claw attack. Pouncing and grabbing really isn't their main schtick.

[thenobledrake]

How are you defining what is or is not a creature's "main schtick" if not by looking at what abilities are present in its stat block?

Any other creature with a "plus grab" attack it is part of their "main schtick" so why is the Lamia supposedly different?

[Syri]

In lieu of a trained Athletics DC, I would use a Grabbing creature's Fortitude DC. Fortitude is also used as the DC of the check to move an immobilized creature.

Aratorin wrote:

However, no matter the DC, you're either fine staying Grabbed, because you're a Melee character and have no intention of withdrawing, or your wasting an action to Escape. Either way works for the Lamia.

Well, the vast majority of characters, even melee fighters, will be attempting to Escape, even if only with their third actions. No one wants to keep the flat-footed condition on them; that's -2 AC against all creatures' attacks, not just the lamia's.

[RJGrady]

thenobledrake wrote:

How are you defining what is or is not a creature's "main schtick" if not by looking at what abilities are present in its stat block?

Any other creature with a "plus grab" attack it is part of their "main schtick" so why is the Lamia supposedly different?

They cast spells and use weapons, none of which is helped much by grabbing. I've never even thought about them grabbing before. They didn't have that ability in D&D 3e at all.

[Syri]

Oh, by Jove, I've got it!! It's been staring us in the face this whole time! Escape says that you roll "against the DC of the effect"--the effect that the lamia uses to Grab you is its claw, and its claw's attack modifier is +17, so if you feel that Fortitude DC isn't RAW, you can instead elect to use its claw attack DC, 27!
And hm, if the claw Strike that qualified for the Grab was made at -4 MAP, you might even apply that penalty to reduce the Escape DC to 23 in that situation.