The invisible condition says that you're undetected, unless someone uses a seek action, or they're tracking your footprints in snow, or something similar.
When failing a stealth check, you're hidden (crit fail makes you observed, but that's not possible with invisible, except for non-sight precise sense).
Which is more specific? Which overrides? If you're unnoticed (starting the fight stealthed, and invisible), and you fail a stealth check, are you detected, or hidden? Do they need to take a seek action to find your square?
Detected isn't a status. You are either Unnoticed (they have no idea you are there), Undetected (they know you are there, but not which square you are in), Hidden (they know which square you are in, but cannot see you), or Observed.
If you're Invisible, and either Fail or Critically Fail your Stealth Check, you become Hidden.
In Exploration Mode, if no PC is using the Search Activity, the Invisible NPC would be Unnoticed.
In Exploration Mode, if no PC is using the Search Activity, the Invisible NPC would be Unnoticed.
Why if I might ask?
In my opinion if you are invisible and not sneaking successfully (or not trying to sneak at all) you will be prone to imprecise senses (e.g. hearing) and will immediately become hidden once in hearing range, even without any active search.
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In Exploration Mode, if no PC is using the Search Activity, the Invisible NPC would be Unnoticed.Why if I might ask?
In my opinion if you are invisible and not sneaking successfully (or not trying to sneak at all) you will be prone to imprecise senses (e.g. hearing) and will immediately become hidden once in hearing range, even without any active search.
Its kinda implied by the invisible condition:
While invisible, you can’t be seen. You’re undetected to everyone. Creatures can Seek to attempt to detect you; if a creature succeeds at its Perception check against your Stealth DC, you become hidden to that creature until you Sneak to become undetected again. If you become invisible while someone can already see you, you start out hidden to the observer (instead of undetected) until you successfully Sneak. You can’t become observed while invisible except via special abilities or magic.
You don't need to sneak while invisible to be undetected. You're undetected to everyone unless they use seek to detect you using your Stealth DC (or you started out visible in front of them, then turned invisible). The invisible one isn't the one rolling, its the seeker. Once you are simply hidden, then you start needing to roll Sneak.
This is of course will interact differently with creatures with precise senses other than sight, but as written, an invisible creature doesn't need to make stealth rolls unless they want to become undetected again.
Thats why a character needs to be using the search activity to make you hidden. Its more of a GM's call if you transition from unnoticed to undetected automatically, or if you need to make stealth checks versus perception, or the GM makes hidden perception checks against your stealth DC. Thats a bit unclear to me.
This is also why Bast is confused. If you are rolling sneak, a failure means you are only hidden. An undetected invisible creature doesn't need to roll to remain undetected. They need to roll sneak only to transition from hidden to undetected. And thats why the failure mode makes sense. If you fail or critical fail sneak trying to go from hidden to undetected, you remain just hidden.
In Exploration Mode, if no PC is using the Search Activity, the Invisible NPC would be Unnoticed.Why if I might ask?
In my opinion if you are invisible and not sneaking successfully (or not trying to sneak at all) you will be prone to imprecise senses (e.g. hearing) and will immediately become hidden once in hearing range, even without any active search.
Its kinda implied by the invisible condition:
While invisible, you can’t be seen. You’re undetected to everyone. Creatures can Seek to attempt to detect you; if a creature succeeds at its Perception check against your Stealth DC, you become hidden to that creature until you Sneak to become undetected again. If you become invisible while someone can already see you, you start out hidden to the observer (instead of undetected) until you successfully Sneak. You can’t become observed while invisible except via special abilities or magic.You don't need to sneak while invisible to be undetected. You're undetected to everyone unless they use seek to detect you using your Stealth DC (or you started out visible in front of them, then turned invisible). The invisible one isn't the one rolling, its the seeker. Once you are simply hidden, then you start needing to roll Sneak.
This is of course will interact differently with creatures with precise senses other than sight, but as written, an invisible creature doesn't need to make stealth rolls unless they want to become undetected again.
Thats why a character needs to be using the search activity to make you hidden. Its more of a GM's call if you transition from unnoticed to undetected automatically, or if you need to make stealth checks versus perception, or the GM makes hidden perception checks against your stealth DC. Thats a bit unclear to me.
This is also why Bast is confused. If you are rolling sneak, a failure means you are only hidden. An undetected invisible creature doesn't need...
From Scrip:
You have to go to Chapter 9's section "Concealment and Invisibility" to learn the "specific" case that:
"If you’re already observing a creature when it becomes invisible, it starts out hidden, since you know where it was when it became invisible, though it can then Sneak to become undetected."
Oh wait a second, that's also stated in the definition of the 'invisible' condition:
"If you become invisible while someone can already see you, you start out hidden to the observer (instead of undetected) until you successfully Sneak."
By that is seems like that text in invisibility shouldn't be there, it does nothing and is just confusing.
I really hope they errata this.
Its kinda implied by the invisible condition:
While invisible, you can’t be seen. You’re undetected to everyone. Creatures can Seek to attempt to detect you; if a creature succeeds at its Perception check against your Stealth DC, you become hidden to that creature until you Sneak to become undetected again. If you become invisible while someone can already see you, you start out hidden to the observer (instead of undetected) until you successfully Sneak. You can’t become observed while invisible except via special abilities or magic.You don't need to sneak while invisible to be undetected. You're undetected to everyone unless they use seek to detect you using your Stealth DC (or you started out visible in front of them, then turned invisible). The invisible one isn't the one rolling, its the seeker. Once you are simply hidden, then you start needing to roll Sneak.
I disagree based on the definition of imprecise senses:
You can usually sense a creature automatically with an imprecise sense, but it has the hidden condition instead of the observed condition. It might be undetected by you if it’s using Stealth or is in an environment that distorts the sense, such as a noisy room in the case of hearing. In those cases, you have to use the Seek basic action to detect the creature.
It is auto-detect and auto-hidden unless the creature uses stealth and only then you have to actively seek to find it.
Question: What is the difference of zombies shuffeling around in a dark room and invisible zombies shuffeling around in a dark room?
Answer: None as far as hearing is concerned.
Edit: The bad thing is that hearing ranges are nowhere defined so I guess this falls under GM decision. An invisible zombie standing still while not using stealth is different to an invisible zombie walking around while not using stealth to an invisible zombie playing trumpet while not using stealth in regards to hearing.
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The way I usually run it is that as soon as you need to sneak within roughly 30 feet of someone (my loosely defined “hearing range” since that tends to be the range for imprecise senses), you need to make a stealth check to remain unseen. If you stay out of that range, you don’t need to stealth at all if no-one knows you’re there.
In my opinion invisibility plays as follows:
1) Out of range of any imprecise sense and while the opposition is relying on sight as a primary sense
Stay unnoticed and undetected indefinitely as far as you don't move, respectively unless somebody uses a successful seek action on your position. If you move you usually don't loose your status but this may also be dependant on external factors, e.g. when moving through a waterfall or dense vegetation a stealth check might be required to avoid indirect detection via the sight primary sense (GM decision).
2) In range of any imprecise sense (GM decision or scent range)
Stay unnoticed and undetected as long as you don't produce any noticable sound (versus hearing) and/or don't produce any noticable scent (versus scent). If you move you need to succeed your stealth rolls while dealing with hearing and/or have a way to deal with and succeed your stealth rolls versus scent.
You know that even if you are invisible if I know you're in the vicinity you are not unnoticed.
Let's say you're sneaking around, then someone see you, in response you enter a room, cast invisibility and move then you are not unnoticed, you are only undetected... ;)
Unnoticed doesn't give you any bonus at all...
You know that even if you are invisible if I know you're in the vicinity you are not unnoticed.
Let's say you're sneaking around, then someone see you, in response you enter a room, cast invisibility and move then you are not unnoticed, you are only undetected... ;)
Unnoticed doesn't give you any bonus at all...
Any enemy that is not unnoticed can be reacted to, even if he is invisible, that is correct.
Being unnoticed gives to the benefit of the initiative* as in you are the only one that can actively decide to act to another ones presence, e.g. when to start hostilities. Once you are noticed and undetected at best, both parties can act to each others presence.
So if you want to follow a NPC rogue to the secret rogue hideout everything is fine as long as you remain unnoticed. Once you are noticed the NPC will probably not lead you to the hideout.
*not the initiative in combat, but who is allowed to make decisions first
Being unnoticed gives to the benefit of the initiative* as in you are the only one that can actively decide to act to another ones presence, e.g. when to start hostilities. Once you are noticed and undetected at best, both parties can act to each others presence.
So if you want to follow a NPC rogue to the secret rogue hideout everything is fine as long as you remain unnoticed. Once you are noticed the NPC will probably not lead you to the hideout.
Any enemy that is not unnoticed can be reacted to, even if he is invisible, that is correct.
*not the initiative in combat, but who is allowed to make decisions first
It also give you the advantage that not everyone passing by will use the seek action to try to find you, but it does not gives you any bonus...
Another example is you sneak in a castle to steal a treasure, but another rogue got the same idea as you... Your Sneak is perfect with the help of invisibility but the other rogue is seen by two guards before moving, hiding and successfully "re-stealthing". One of the guard "chase" the intruder while the other go trigger an alarm shouting "intruder, intruder !!"
You are not Unnoticed anymore... Guards in the castle knows there's an intruder and while they don't know it's you they know there's someone, you are undected but no longer unnoticed... ;)
Your invisibility does not guarantee you to go unnoticed...
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I assume "unnoticed" is being used as more of an informal term to denote that people have no reason to even look for you in the first place. In such a situation you could skulk around with none the wiser while invisible as long as you took no actions that reveal your presence or until someone notices you with a non-vision sense.
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I assume "unnoticed" is being used as more of an informal term to denote that people have no reason to even look for you in the first place. In such a situation you could skulk around with none the wiser while invisible as long as you took no actions that reveal your presence or until someone notices you with a non-vision sense.
Exactly that's why you can't use "unnoticed" as a stealth mechanic, it's not a stealth mechanic, it's a"rp" mechanic.
so if you are invisible+stealth and fail then you are hidden, not undetected, invisibility only give you the assurance to not be "observed" with a critical fail. Well it also give you permanent concealed bonus to stealth while invisible, that's not bad too ;)
I assume "unnoticed" is being used as more of an informal term to denote that people have no reason to even look for you in the first place. In such a situation you could skulk around with none the wiser while invisible as long as you took no actions that reveal your presence or until someone notices you with a non-vision sense.Exactly that's why you can't use "unnoticed" as a stealth mechanic, it's not a stealth mechanic, it's a"rp" mechanic.
Not entirely. It is not a status that you can actively achieve using stealth. However only after somebody has become noticed you can usually start dropping seek checks, see invisibility, true seeing and fairy fire left and right. Unless of course you are John Malkovich R.E.D. level paranoid...
It is a stealth mechanic though, as the invisible condition states that you are automatically undetected until someone starts seeking for you.
"A creature with the invisible condition (by way of an invisibility spell or invisibility potion, for example) is automatically undetected to any creatures relying on sight as their only precise sense.
You can use the Seek basic action to attempt to figure out an invisible creature’s location, making it instead only hidden from you. This lasts until the invisible creature successfully uses Sneak to become undetected again. If you’re already observing a creature when it becomes invisible, it starts out hidden, since you know where it was when it became invisible, though it can then Sneak to become undetected." (CRB 467, concealment and invisibility)
This means "unnoticed" is very much an actual stealth mechanic while a character is invisible. Until someone has reason to believe the invisible person exists (and starts seeking), the invisible person can move around while remaining undetected. This does not require a stealth check as long as they don't do anything that betrays their presence (walk through flour, walk too close to someone (hearing), open a door, etc).
It is a stealth mechanic though, as the invisible condition states that you are automatically undetected until someone starts seeking for you.
"A creature with the invisible condition (by way of an invisibility spell or invisibility potion, for example) is automatically undetected to any creatures relying on sight as their only precise sense.
You can use the Seek basic action to attempt to figure out an invisible creature’s location, making it instead only hidden from you. This lasts until the invisible creature successfully uses Sneak to become undetected again. If you’re already observing a creature when it becomes invisible, it starts out hidden, since you know where it was when it became invisible, though it can then Sneak to become undetected." (CRB 467, concealment and invisibility)
This means "unnoticed" is very much an actual stealth mechanic while a character is invisible. Until someone has reason to believe the invisible person exists (and starts seeking), the invisible person can move around while remaining undetected. This does not require a stealth check as long as they don't do anything that betrays their presence (walk through flour, walk too close to someone (hearing), open a door, etc).
Unnoticed and Undetected are not the same thing, despite being poorly named.
Unnoticed means you have no idea that the creature is there. Undetected means you know they are there, just not exactly where. Because you heard them, or smelled them, or some other thing. You will essentially never be Unnoticed in Encounter Mode, because if nobody has any idea you are there, why are they in Encounter Mode?
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Well, I did recently run a "stealth encounter" where an invisible player was skulking around a mansion. It was pretty tense since he couldn't open doors himself without being noticed, so he had to sneak right by people going through. For the first half of that encounter, he was unnoticed - nobody knew he was around and people were simply going about their business as he snuck around them.
He ended up being cornered by chance, and one failed distraction attempt later he accidentally alerted people who started looking for him. He ended up rushing out a kitchen window - the only things he managed to steal was a kitchen knife and a raw ham.
I assume "unnoticed" is being used as more of an informal term to denote that people have no reason to even look for you in the first place. In such a situation you could skulk around with none the wiser while invisible as long as you took no actions that reveal your presence or until someone notices you with a non-vision sense.Exactly that's why you can't use "unnoticed" as a stealth mechanic, it's not a stealth mechanic, it's a"rp" mechanic.
so if you are invisible+stealth and fail then you are hidden, not undetected, invisibility only give you the assurance to not be "observed" with a critical fail. Well it also give you permanent concealed bonus to stealth while invisible, that's not bad too ;)
What do you mean by concealed bonus to stealth?
What do you mean by concealed bonus to stealth?
Daaang.. Thanks for reminding me, but Cover provide a +2 to Stealth while Concealed provide only a flat 5 check to not be hit... :)
Well, now I know that I've been giving Cover bonus instead of Concealed Bonus to my players... Not that they care... :p
The way I usually run it is that as soon as you need to sneak within roughly 30 feet of someone (my loosely defined “hearing range” since that tends to be the range for imprecise senses), you need to make a stealth check to remain unseen. If you stay out of that range, you don’t need to stealth at all if no-one knows you’re there.
There's an AP where you can skulk around a mine full of enemies, and they say you don't need to make a stealth check unless you come within 60 feet of a creature when the mine isn't on alert. So that might be a better distance to utilize for this, at least in this particular circumstance (open ground surrounded by jungle, probably broad daylight, etc.)
30 feet if you're invisible, I should say. If you're not invisible, it depends on the environment as you say.