Question in the title.
While I think that RAW you might not be able to copy a spell from a divine scroll as divine scrolls are written as prayers while arcane scrolls are written as some kind of magic formula, maybe there are other ways to do this that I just haven't found yet. Hoping for some input.
The reason is that we have a divine caster in our group that has a lot of Wizard spells on his spell list and I would like to write down some of them because we haven't been in a settlement larger than a village for about 3 levels now.
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Question in the title.
While I think that RAW you might not be able to copy a spell from a divine scroll as divine scrolls are written as prayers while arcane scrolls are written as some kind of magic formula, maybe there are other ways to do this that I just haven't found yet. Hoping for some input.The reason is that we have a divine caster in our group that has a lot of Wizard spells on his spell list and I would like to write down some of them because we haven't been in a settlement larger than a village for about 3 levels now.
General consensus tends to be that no, it has to be Arcane. But most of the arguments for that are centered around the use of the word “copy” in the wizards spellbook rules. If you reference the Arcane Magical Writings rules however, as instructed to by the spellbook rules, it actually seems pretty clear that by RAW you can do this. It has two very specific things to say on the subject. Firstly that only the person who wrote the scroll in the first place can understand it and use it without first deciphering it via spellcraft, which that on its own creates issues with if it is straight copied. Secondly, it says that once deciphered, wether through spellcraft or read magic, the reader has a full understanding of the spells function and how to use it, this means that a Wizard has the knowledge to rewrite the spell in their own format for their spellbook.
Of course this comes specifically from the Arcane Magical Writing rules, emphasis on Arcane... so if you then look at Divine Magical Writing rules it reads “ can be written and deciphered like arcane spells (see Arcane Magical Writings)”... so it uses the exact same rules... it does have one limiting factor however... “Only characters who have the spell (in its divine form) on their class spell list can cast a divine spell from a scroll.” Do note however, the restriction only applies to casting the spell from the scroll, you can still decipher it just fine and deciphering it is what grants you the knowledge needed to rewrite it in your spellbook.
Your divine caster does not have any wizard spells on his list. What he has are spells that is very similar to a wizard’s spell that belongs to whatever divine caster he has levels in. If they were wizard spells he would not be able to cast them.
Many of the spells also have different components or other restrictions. The M/DF is fairly common and is a clear example that how the affect is achieved is different. This just illustrates that the spells are not the same.
The fact that in the book they are listed in the same spot is just a way to keep the size of the books down. If each spell had to be printed up for every class that could cast them it would be impractical. Very few spells are exclusive to a single class.
At 1st level, the living grimoire’s holy book contains all 0-level inquisitor spells plus three 1st-level inquisitor spells of his choice. He also selects a number of additional 1st-level inquisitor spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to his holy book. At each new inquisitor level, he gains two new inquisitor spells of any spell levels he can cast (based on his new inquisitor level) for his holy book. At any time, he can learn inquisitor spells from scrolls or other written sources and add inquisitor spells he finds to his holy book.
It certainly seems like a divine class can learn spells from arcane written sources, since there aren’t very many divine written sources.
I feel pretty sure a wizard could learn a spell from a divine scroll if it is on his own spell list. A scroll is meant to be more general purpose, and easier to use than a spell in a spell book. And other than the living grimoire, I can’t think of any other divine written sources that the wizard would want to copy from anyway.
But wouldn't that imply that if you had one arcane and one divine spellcasting class you could just write your divine spells into your arcane spellbook as long as they are on both lists without needing to do it via scrolls?
The other written source of divine spells would be other Living Grimoires holy books. That is obviously to allow other of the same archetype to trade spells. And notice that is specifically states that you can add other inquisitor spells to their book. Since inquisitor spells are by definition divine spells that means they cannot add arcane spells to their books.
Just because you have a spell book does not mean you can learn spells from another class. Alchemists are specifically allowed to learn spells from wizards spell book if it is on their formula list, but the reverse is prohibited. A magus and wizard can learn from each other’s books because it is specifically allowed.
Alchemist is kind of the point. They specify that they can copy from wizards but wizards can’t copy from them. This implies that inability to copy is a limitation that has to be imposed from other text.
If the living grimoire, could only copy from other living grimoires, then it would have just said that, instead of “other written sources”. And realistically, there aren’t enough other living grimoires in the world to source your spellbook needs.
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Basically per the rules yes but it wont do them any good.
As Chell Raighn said only a person with the divine spell or use magic can use the spell. There is per the rules no reason a wizard can't copy a divine spell into their spellbook however once they've done so what they've done is create a written record of a divine spell which they can't memorize/cast. Depending on how you treat spellbooks even a divine caster may not be able to use it from the book.
That said I would personally use this as the first step in researching an arcane of a divine spell e.g cure light wounds. We know this is possible as Baba Yaga is specifically noted as having researched arcane versions of many divine spells. Its just that the rule on reserching new spells is "speak to your DM." So that said I'll leave debate on researching new spells to another thread.
Basically per the rules yes but it wont do them any good.
As Chell Raighn said only a person with the divine spell or use magic can use the spell. There is per the rules no reason a wizard can't copy a divine spell into their spellbook however once they've done so what they've done is create a written record of a divine spell which they can't memorize/cast. Depending on how you treat spellbooks even a divine caster may not be able to use it from the book.
That said I would personally use this as the first step in researching an arcane of a divine spell e.g cure light wounds. We know this is possible as Baba Yaga is specifically noted as having researched arcane versions of many divine spells. Its just that the rule on reserching new spells is "speak to your DM." So that said I'll leave debate on researching new spells to another thread.
Actually, the spell should be completely usable by the wizard still... the reason why they can’t use the scroll is because scrolls act as partially completed spells, reading the scroll to activate it completes the casting. Because of how they function if you don’t use the same type of magic, you can’t activate it (without a high UMD check). But the knowledge of the spells function is universal. Despite MysterousStrangers claims, nowhere in the rules does it ever state that the spells are intrinsically different, only the source of the magic power that fuels the spell. That source is only important for spell failure and activation of scrolls, wands, staves, and similar magic items. While each class may have their own rituals and practices for the casting of spells, the actual knowledge and concepts remain the same, and that is what the Wizard uses. If there is an actual rules quote that says otherwise I would love to see it, but until someone finds such a rule, by RAW a wizard can copy a spell from any source and then use it, so long as the spell is on the wizard spell list.
While RAW I agree with Chell Raighn, I've always pictured the difference between arcane and divine magic this way:
Arcane prepared casters understand the inner workings of magic and thus their writing is of a very analytical style, precisely describing components, gestures and words to shape the fabric of reality to their will.
Divine prepared casters do not have that understanding of magic and they can't practice it on their own without first communing with powerful entities (the reason why some people call divine casters "spellbeggers").
A cleric or paladin would pray for guidance from their god, while a shaman or druid would become one with the ancient spirits around them, seeking guidance. This way, a divine writing would rather describe prayers, shamanic chants, extatic dances and offerings to the spirits.
Concerning spontaneous casters of either sort, from a fluff perspective I find it almost impossible to explain how they would create magical writing or even scrolls, since their magic basically just happens.
Regarding all this, it sounds unreasonable to me that everyone can read and understand anyone's magical writing, even though the RAW might say otherwise.
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@Chell Raighn
You decipher and copy the spell that is on the scroll or in the magical writing. Getting a Divine version of a spell has no use for an arcane spellcaster.
Unless you can show a rule that supports your interpretation, changing the nature of the spell can't be done.
Just to point out how "universal" are the principles:
Divine Focus (DF): A divine focus component is an item of spiritual signif icance. The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character’s faith. The divine focus for a druid or a ranger is a sprig of holly, or some other sacred plant.
If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash).
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The nature of the spell itself is not tied to Arcane or Divine, only the nature of the power that fuels the spell. As I have stated already, the power source only matters for hindrances to casting (such as armor) and spell completion magic items (activating a scroll) as such items are partially completed spells that require the finishing touches. An Arcane caster can't complete a spell that was started by a Divine caster and vice-versa. At no point do the rules ever define the nature of the spells themselves just the power that fuels them.
As for Material/Focus/Divine Focus, This again plays into the source of power that fuels the casting. An Arcane caster uses primal forces either drawn from themselves, ambient energy in the world around them, or a powerful (and potentially malevolent) patron. The Material components and foci used harken to the ritualistic nature of some spells, pulling aspects from said component or focus to channel and shape the arcane energy into the desired spell effect. Divine casters subvert that aspect by drawing power from a deity in the case of clerics, paladins, and similar. They channel that energy through a holy symbol, the spell has already been shaped they just need a focus for the power to channel through. Druids, rangers, and other nature focused Divine spellcasters still follow a more ritualistic nature to their casting, but they channel power from the world around them or wild spirits, the sprig of holly or other sacred plant serves the same function as a Holy Symbol in this regard though it seems outwardly more primal. Basically, arcane casters use components like a Witch brewing a potion, deific divine casters are like a priest performing an exorcism, and natural divine casters are like a shaman performing a rain dance. All three could cast the same spell, their methods may appear foreign and strange to each other, but there are enough similarities that the spell can still be identified and understood before the effect is readily apparent.
All of the pertinent rules:
To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in his own way. Another person’s magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until he takes time to study and decipher it.
To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in another’s spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.
Once a character deciphers a particular piece of magical writing, he does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing is a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, he can attempt to use the scroll.
Divine spells can be written and deciphered like arcane spells (see Arcane Magical Writings). A Spellcraft check can decipher divine magical writing and identify it. Only characters who have the spell (in its divine form) on their class spell list can cast a divine spell from a scroll.
A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until one week has passed. If the spell was from a scroll, a failed Spellcraft check does not cause the spell to vanish.
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.
Wizards, sorcerers, and bards cast arcane spells. Compared to divine spells, arcane spells are more likely to produce dramatic results.
Clerics, druids, experienced paladins, and experienced rangers can cast divine spells. Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces. The divine force of nature powers druid and ranger spells, and the divine forces of law and good power paladin spells. Divine spells tend to focus on healing and protection and are less flashy, destructive, and disruptive than arcane spells.
This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell’s casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
You are skilled at the art of casting spells, identifying magic items, crafting magic items, and identifying spells as they are being cast.
Check: Spellcraft is used whenever your knowledge and skill of the technical art of casting a spell or crafting a magic item comes into question. This skill is also used to identify the properties of magic items in your possession through the use of spells such as detect magic and identify. The DC of this check varies depending upon the task at hand.
Action: Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors. Learning a spell from a spellbook takes 1 hour per level of the spell (0-level spells take 30 minutes). Preparing a spell from a borrowed spellbook does not add any time to your spell preparation. Making a Spellcraft check to craft a magic item is made as part of the creation process. Attempting to ascertain the properties of a magic item takes 3 rounds per item to be identified and you must be able to thoroughly examine the object.
Very important thing to note: Spellcraft has absolutely no distinction or qualification of Arcane or Divine spells. If the nature of the spell itself were dependant on Arcane or Divine, then there would be a modifier to the DC for being of the corresponding class and/or casting type. Afterall if the nature of the spell is so vastly different then someone who can cast the spell the same way should be able to identify it easier, right? But they don't, which means only one thing. The nature of the spell is the same regardless of power source.
A scroll is a scroll is a scroll. It doesn't matter who wrote it. If it's on your spell list, you can read it and copy it into your spellbook. If not, you can't (and would have to UMD to try to cast it).
Same thing with a wand or staff. It doesn't matter who made a wand of CLW; a bard could use it just as well as a cleric or druid, just like it doesn't matter what religion or alignment the caster or user might be. You can't use it to write into a spellbook though.
A scroll is a scroll is a scroll. It doesn't matter who wrote it. If it's on your spell list, you can read it and copy it into your spellbook. If not, you can't (and would have to UMD to try to cast it).
Same thing with a wand or staff. It doesn't matter who made a wand of CLW; a bard could use it just as well as a cleric or druid, just like it doesn't matter what religion or alignment the caster or user might be. You can't use it to write into a spellbook though.
This is incorrect. Both the sections on divine magical writings and arcane magical writing specifically state you have to be of the proper caster type to use the scroll of that type.
Divine Magical Writings
Divine spells can be written and deciphered like arcane spells (see Arcane Magical Writings). A Spellcraft check can decipher divine magical writing and identify it. Only characters who have the spell (in its divine form) on their class spell list can cast a divine spell from a scroll.
Arcane Magical Writings
Once a character deciphers a particular piece of magical writing, he does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing is a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, he can attempt to use the scroll.
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To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll
user must meet the following requirements.
• The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine).
Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
• The user must have the spell on her class list.
• The user must have the requisite ability score.
Mysterious Stranger is right.
PFS removed the divine and arcane restriction on scrolls, so people may be misremembering that. It’s honestly a great house rule in general and almost necessary in a game where all loot gets “bought”.
Regardless, the arcane and divine restriction is for casting. Copying a spell from a scroll is not “casting”, so it is not restricted.
When it comes to casting from the scroll, yes. Your casting type matters then. When it comes to deciphering the scroll and copy the spell into a spellbook, no. As far as using spellcraft is concerned there is no difference between a divine scroll of fireball and an arcane scroll of fireball, it is merely a scroll of fireball. A wizard who gets their hands on a scroll of fireball doesn’t care if it is arcane or divine if they just want to study it to add the spell to their spellbook. They may be incapable of activating a divine scroll of fireball to cast the spell, but they don’t need to cast it to glean the understanding they need from it.
Heck, if you want to look at some RP perspectives to it even, a wizard who learns a spell from a divine scroll or book might have some prayer passages in their incantation for said spell. Part of why wizards spellbook a are so foreign to each other even if they have the same spells is because there is no telling where one may have sourced some spell knowledge from. Wizards are archivers of spell knowledge, they don’t care what the source is so long as they can manage to harness the power of the spell.
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It’s not a divine spell when the wizard prepares it though.When a wizard copies a spell, it’s not an exact copy of the source. Instead it’s the wizard using spell craft on the writing to interpret the general mechanics of the spell and then writing down how the spell should work in his own opinion. It’s why no wizard can automatically use the spellbook of another wizard. It’s why a wizard with alchemical affinity can still copy from an alchemist’s spellbook. The source writing is just a jumping off point to learn the spell and the only limit is ability to understand that written source.
From the section on Arcane Magical writing
Once a character deciphers a particular piece of magical writing, he does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing is a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, he can attempt to use the scroll.
Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
The first paragraph clearly states that to use an arcane scroll the caster must be able to cast arcane spells. Note that it says use, not cast the spell. The second paragraph states that a spell copied from a scroll disappears from the scroll. That sounds like the scroll was used.
Since the rules for divine magical writing reference the arcane section to save space it would be logical to assume that the restriction of having to be able to cast divine spells replaces that of being able to cast arcane spells. If you don’t go by that assumption it means that arcane casters cannot use divine scrolls, but divine casters can use arcane scrolls. That is pretty obviously wrong.
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Studying and copying from a scroll is not using the scroll.
The writing on a scroll must be deciphered before a character can use it or know exactly what spell it contains. This requires a read magic spell or a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). Deciphering a scroll is a full-round action.
Deciphering a scroll to determine its contents does not activate its magic unless it is a specially prepared cursed scroll. A character can decipher the writing on a scroll in advance so that she can proceed directly to the next step when the time comes to use the scroll.
The spell vanishes simply because of balance concerns. Imagine how broken wizards would be if they could buy one of every scroll transcribe them into their spellbook and then turn around and cast from the scroll afterwards.
True deciphering a scroll is not using it, but copying it to a spell book does. That section simply means you have to decipher it before you can use it for any purpose.
In any published adventure I can think of, a scroll given as treasure is just listed as a scroll of that spell. There's nothing about whether it's arcane or divine. One might argue that it's often implicit, based on who owns it (a wizard will have an arcane scroll) but it's often not and Paizo are usually pretty pedantic on this.
I don’t run published adventures or AP so I could not say. I suspect that in most cases it will not be that hard to figure out. If the scroll was looted from a cleric it is probably divine, if it came from a wizard chances are it is arcane. If it is not immediately obvious the GM can just decide for himself.
As was brought up earlier PFS has a house rule in place and a lot of people go by this. But this is the rules forum not the homebrew forum. If a GM want to hose rule it so any caster can use any scroll that is of course his right, but again that is a hose rule.
Just like adventure writers tend to forget that a certain percentage of magic weapons are supposed to glow, they forget that scrolls are supposed to be arcane or divine. It’s really one of those vestigial rules that got left behind as the game matured.
The reason is that we have a divine caster in our group that has a lot of Wizard spells on his spell list and I would like to write down some of them because we haven't been in a settlement larger than a village for about 3 levels now.
In any case, you need to have an ability to properly write magic. You can't just take a piece of paper and write down the spell. In practise, this means unless the divine caster is a Living Grimoire (from which a Wizard can not copy spells), the only way for them to write down their divine spells is via the feat Scribe Scroll.
I've always pictured the difference between arcane and divine magic this way:
Arcane prepared casters understand the inner workings of magic and thus their writing is of a very analytical style, precisely describing components, gestures and words to shape the fabric of reality to their will.
Divine prepared casters do not have that understanding of magic and they can't practice it on their own without first communing with powerful entities (the reason why some people call divine casters "spellbeggers").
It's not that clear cut in Pathfinder. Witches draw their prepared arcane casting from "a vague and mysterious force, granting the witch power for reasons that she might not entirely understand", while the sponatneous divine casting Oracles "are granted power without their choice, selected by providence to wield powers that even they do not fully understand". Sounds similar, doesn't it? A Witch must commune with their familiar to prepare spells, a Shaman must commune with their spirit animal - which is de facto a familiar. The two are so similar that the Shaman description actually points out the differences! There's prepared arcane full casting keying off Charisma (Seducer Witch) and spontaneous arcane full casting keying off Intelligence (Sage bloodline Sorcerer and Ley Line Guardian Witch). There's both prepared and spontaneous intelligence based divine casting (Living Grimouire Inquisitor and Reliquarian Occultist, respectively), and of course said Inquisitor archetype behaves almost exactly like a Wizard. The only thing that doesn't exist is wisdom based prepared arcane casting. Division regarding which spell is on which "side" is almost nonexistent anyway, almost every spell in the game can be cast as both arcane and divine (ignoring psychic spells).
The other written source of divine spells would be other Living Grimoires holy books. That is obviously to allow other of the same archetype to trade spells. And notice that is specifically states that you can add other inquisitor spells to their book. Since inquisitor spells are by definition divine spells that means they cannot add arcane spells to their books.
That's not what the rules say. "inquisitor spells" is shorthand for "spells on the inquisitor spell list". Spells don't have a type until you actually cast them (or craft with them). RAW, any written spell (in a form capable of containing magic writing, e.g. a scroll or spellbook) works, and I'm very sure that's intended, too.
Can Wizards use Divine Foci? Because that's needed for every divine spell.
No it's not. First, only ~35% of Cleric spells require a divine focus. Second, most of these are replaces by a material component of regular focus for the arcane verison, and when a Wizard casts the spell, it's always the arcane version. And third, nothing says a Wizard can't use a Divine Focus, and indeed, some regular Wizard spells like Resist Energy require a Divine Focus.
Just to throw out another example of how applying this rule strictly causes problems. Take a blood arcanist with the psychic bloodline, prepares psychic caster with a spell book. Where would he find the "psychic" type scrolls that he need to put spell in his spell book? If you strictly enforce the rule they don't even exist as there's only arcane and divine.