Spell ranges are quite short, what do blaster war wizards do on a battlefield?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

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Squiggit wrote:
For my tastes I feel like even that's a little bit extreme. It strikes me as a bit of an uncomfortable stretch that Joe Monarch just ends up being comparable to an Adult Dragon or several flavors of major demon.

Inherited monarchs are usually lower, often by quite a bit. The assumption seems to be that you rise to a position of power by being high level, rather than that you gain high level by having a high position.

Squiggit wrote:
Are you just going through their post history so you can make snide comments? That's a little weird.

Yeah, that's distinctly odd.

Squiggit wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
I'm not sure why we consider anyone able to keep power as "joe monarch" in a world in which personal power can be so extreme.
I mean that's why it bugs me, because personal power and executive power are often pretty different things and I've never been a big fan of the trope of the leader of an organization always happening to be one of its strongest members.

Well, they aren't necessarily the strongest, but particularly in PF1, someone of 4th level just couldn't be as competent at the actual 'ruling' part of being a ruler as one who was 14th level.

Squiggit wrote:
I think stories about power systems work better when those power systems are entrenched politically, economically and socially more than when every nation is essentially ruled by a dragon who could probably just solo the underclass if they got uppity.

Well, firstly, those with inherited monarchs tend to be a lot more like this. Any meritocracy, whether a democratic one or one by the sword, is simply gonna have high level people in positions of power because they're better at stuff than lower level people. And most nations in the Inner Sea region are meritocracies to some degree.

Secondly, the underclass is just as likely to produce high level people as the traditional ruling elite, which is a large part of why so many Inner Sea nations are largely meritocratic to some degree. And those high level people can and do get to either join the elites of their society, leave, or do something about them. All of which show up in the world.

And thirdly, this is actually a lot more doable and likely to show up in PF2 given the differences in how NPCs work. All the stuff above about level mattering to a ruler mostly matters in terms of social and knowledge related stuff, not combat, so a level 3 King (Level 15 in social encounters) is absolutely doable now in a way they weren't in PF1.

Squiggit wrote:
I concede this is absolutely just a matter of personal preference, though.

Yeah, fair enough, I just don't think the world is as far away from your preferences as it might look at first glance.


Worth noting that not every Inner Sea nation is governed by an upper-level ruler. A few examples I could find:

Brevoy's King-Regent is level 8 in combined NPC classes.
Post-AP Korvosa is listed with a level 10 ruler
The Steward of Isger is level 9
Ravounel's lord-mayor is level 9
Many of the rulers of the River Kingdoms range between 6 and 10.

These are not low levels necessarily, but also mind that this is a world in which an experienced village priest may be as high as 8th level on his own. Also relevant is that nobility would generally have easier access to the kind of training necessary to achieve a modest level of power and skill, doubly so for nobility groomed for the throne.

If you didn't earn your throne by virtue of your skill and general competence, it's rather probable you achieved your skill and competence by virtue of the considerable resources afforded you by said throne. Failing those two, it's just a fact that some places are governed by a ruler who could be taken down with a well-coordinated fireball rush, which shows in their relative instability.


Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
Post-AP Korvosa is listed with a level 10 ruler

Does it ever list that characters level in a post-AP place? Or is this your assumption that that character would have the same level as they appear in the AP?


Temperans wrote:

I am guessing its more a result of A person level X would get manipulated and out politiqued by B person level X+Y.

So a level 1 leader who is trained in deception and things would not be able to control people as well as someone who is level 5 and experts. Those would lose to people who are level 10 and masters. While all of those would lose to people who are level 15 and legendary. Of course its also possible for there to be a level 1 NPC with really high level in those skills, but a high level NPC will have both the power to not get assassinated and a similar amount of skills (thanks to level to proficiency).

If not using level to proficiency it becomes a lot easier for a low level but highly skilled to be able to keep power. But still runs the risk of just being killed off.

Power is often hereditary - the level 5 noble knew and had relationships with all of the people who make up the apparatus of power from early childhood, on top of having the legal right to their position, they know all of the right people. Political power is all about having all of the people who hold the keys to power be familiar with you and on your side - you can be the most charismatic person on the planet, but the police chief and the general and the billionaire financier might still prefer to back the guy they went to boarding school with.

Liberty's Edge

I did specifically note hereditary monarchs as often much lower level. They are also, of course, the exception rather than the rule in Golarion.


It's also a lot easier for a Noble Scion to become a fighter, since Daddy Dearest can hire the best swordsman in the kingdom to train you from a young age, whereas the farm boy from middle-of-nowheresville is running around with his grandpa's rusty sword that he found in a chest in the attic.

Both can go out and adventure and gain levels, but it's a lot easier to stay alive when you can afford to buy proper equipment, and be trained in its use since you were school age.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

It's also worth noting that Golarion is at its core a meritocracy in many ways.

Personal power IS executive power because high level characters are smarter, more charismatic, and wiser than low level characters.


vagrant-poet wrote:
Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
Post-AP Korvosa is listed with a level 10 ruler
Does it ever list that characters level in a post-AP place? Or is this your assumption that that character would have the same level as they appear in the AP?

Fair point. Spoilers under the cut

PathfinderWiki wrote...:
I'm getting my information from PathfinderWiki here as CotCT is not an AP I own, but Cressida Kroft is listed as an Aristocrat 1/Fighter 9 and the Queen of Korvosa following the death of Ileosa (18th level Bard + 2 Aristocrat). I can't say where her level is officially stated, though in general it seems unlikely to have changed significantly, since in my experience typically PCs are the only characters who level-up so fast. I might be swayed to say she's up to level 11, maybe 12 now, if she sees a lot of action in the AP but I don't have evidence one way or the other.

Liberty's Edge

Spoiler:
Pre CotCT, Ileosa was level 6 (Aristocrat 2/Bard 4), and Cressida Kroft was level 10. Ileosa gains a lot of levels over the course of that AP, while Cressida's growth, or lack thereof, is unstated since you never fight her.


Spoiler:
Ah yes, I saw that she was listed as having a much lower level in Inner Sea Magic. I took this to be a retcon of her actual level for the purposes of the AP's closer attention to her, much like Irovetti's level adjustment from the Kingmaker AP, where his alignment shifts and he gains about 8 levels altogether over his previously published stats (also Inner Sea Magic). I did not realize that Ileosa was assumed to have gained those levels in the course of the adventure. That's very interesting!

I suppose that only further supports the premise that being a ruler affords one the kind of resources needed to acquire training that leads to great personal skill and power--even if I assume not all rulers make such a swift ascension without the Fangs.

Liberty's Edge

Spoiler:
I'm not sure it really supports that, it pretty explicitly comes entirely from the Fangs of Kazavon.

I'm also not sure Irovetti is a retcon either, so much as another example of an NPC leveling at almost PC speeds during an AP, which can happen even if Ileosa isn't exactly an example.


Are the level guidelines the same since Pathfinder 1?

Inner Sea World Guide was something like 1-5 commoners with NPC classes, 6-10 leaders and heroes, 11-15 a handful per nation, 16+ GM fiat.

I'd guess 6-10s wouldn't be found in typical villages because of population density and the inability to access high level trainers or magic schools.

When you train competitively for a pvp-type thing, you're only as good the opposition you practice against. There are no secret tennis masters because who are they training against to get better? A whole network of secret undiscovered players? If your small village was continually raided providing endless combat, it (or the raiders) would all be killed after a while.

Liberty's Edge

The demographics seem much the same from everything we've seen thus far, with the proviso that 'Level' in PF2 translates to 'CR' in PF1, so 'NPC Class' people are inevitably lower 'Level' in PF2 than they were 'Level' in PF1.

For example, in PF1, the default 'Farmer' was a Commoner 1/Expert 1 and thus CR 1/2...in PF2, they're Level 0. That's a direct CR conversion despite dropping in 'Level' from 2 to 0.

As for leveling, NPC leveling occurs at the speed of plot, which is to say sometimes it occurs only with exhaustive training, and sometimes with no training at all, depending on what's going on in the world.


I wouldn't attribute too much care to trying to use PF2e as simulationist rules. Like PF1e it just doesn't work out with a believable world structure.

Which is why we will 100% get a separate battle system in the future.

Taken to extreme silly levels, when a wizard with 8str can stand naked in a field and come out victorious against 2,000 orc brutes easily by level 13 and not use single spell or take a single point of damage... it becomes quite obvious that the system is less about simulation and more about handling normal conflict scenarios a player will actually engage in :)

Liberty's Edge

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Golarion 100% is a world where a high enough level Wizard can do exactly that (13th isn't actually high enough to do it sans spells...I think you need another several levels). I mean, this is basically Razmir's whole backstory: He's a bog standard 19th level Wizard and he goes around calling himself a God because nobody can easily contradict him as well as conquering a country, y'know, by himself.

So PF2 simulates Golarion pretty well, really. It doesn't simulate the real world very much at all, but then it isn't really supposed to...


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Wouldn't those become Swarms of a higher creature level than the individual orcs anyway?


Gorbacz wrote:

In Pathfinder, it would take several direct hits from a longbow to get you down, in real life one would suffice.

There goes the comparison.

One arrow is more than enough to take down your average peasant.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Strill wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

In Pathfinder, it would take several direct hits from a longbow to get you down, in real life one would suffice.

There goes the comparison.

One arrow is more than enough to take down your average peasant.

You don’t play peasants though.

And you’re responding to a month old post.

Liberty's Edge

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Strill wrote:
One arrow is more than enough to take down your average peasant.

The standard Commoner in PF2 (a level -1 creature, mind you) has 10 HP. A single arrow can kill them only on a crit.

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