Goblin Squad Member
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What other challenges in dungeons/instances would you like to see other than obvious of combat?
I would like to see instances with no mobs, perhaps riddled with traps or better yet, riddles and/or puzzles.
By riddles I do not necessarily mean language or even just symbolic riddles, I mean apparent dead ends with ledges that can only be reached by someone with a climb of > x then of course we have Nihimon's rope to get the rest of the team up. Possible limiters of this type would include skills in linguists, climbing, acrobatics, etc.
Any other ideas?
To me a puzzle requiring the coordination of 5-10 members could be just as difficult as a combat oriented challenge. Especially if it required various levels of skills.
Point being, I understand the importance of combat in an MMO, it is an easy entertainer. I would like to see some PvE that allows those who have not specialized in combat to excel and contribute...perhaps even taking the lead in certain situations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What other challenges in dungeons/instances would you like to see other than obvious of combat?
I would say this concept is twofold, on one hand I do have to give huge props to DDO for having these type challanges, rotating puzzles, jump challanges, traps etc... Even things like boss fights on top of a puzzle of rotating tiles, in which the boss is invincible but able to harm you, until you solve the puzzle while being attacked... fun stuff.
On the other hand... I'm not 100% sure it fits, the problem it had in DDO was, the puzzles were really good and fun... the first time, in a party of all first timers. They loose all value and entertainment if anyone else has gone a second or 3rd time, then they pretty much lose all value. Second... at least the way I've been picturing the game from the descriptions, I don't see the dungeons as scripted. Traps and enemies can be made random for every dungeon encounter to be unique. Puzzles riddles etc... not so much, now in the modules I suppose that can work, though it still runs into the problem of more or less most puzzles rather than being a supprise, it just winds up coming to, get the person who has seen it before to do it, the other members of the party watch and learn it to do it on sight the next time they run into it.
Short of making 2,000 unique puzzles, which involves a huge quantity of developer time. I can't quite see it working.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I realize I might be hoping for the PFMMO to be too much like the PFP&P. At the least they can make situations that require skills to progress rather than combat skill. Make doors that really require high skill in lock picking to pass...and if the explorers do not bring someone who can pick locks at a high enough level...their loss (especially considering the instance then disappears).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I realize I might be hoping for the PFMMO to be too much like the PFP&P. At the least they can make situations that require skills to progress rather than combat skill. Make doors that really require high skill in lock picking to pass...and if the explorers do not bring someone who can pick locks at a high enough level...their loss (especially considering the instance then disappears).
That I am in favor of, I'm not sure what percentage I am in favor of say doors that you cannot progress past unless they offer multiple options (say knock spells, lock picking or breaking the door down), note with multiple options that dosn't mean each way dosn't have drawbacks. Smashing the door down could say damage a weapon and cause a large ambush to appear further down the road. Knock spells might not be nearly as inexpensive as lockpicking etc...
Now for bonus extras, say an additional 10-25% extra loot, I have 0 complaints of a chest that can only be opened via a rogue, or a forcefield only breakable by a mage etc... The only note I would have to that, is it may need something close to balanced, mainly it can't just be 2 or so classes that have a chance to be the sole route for a bonus, every archtype needs a route to shine. In general when games make one class/archtype as the sole means to enter somewhere, it is compensating for the class being so gimp nobody would take it otherwise. IMO that is the wrong type of fix for such an issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Short of making 2,000 unique puzzles, which involves a huge quantity of developer time. I can't quite see it working.
Actually, I think it can work, but would require a component system of generating puzzles, where the individual pieces would be designed, then combined in order to generate a much larger number of puzzles than could possibly be individually designed.
I've tried to do something similar with logic puzzles before. Things like where Adam is shorter than Bob, Bob is taller than Chuck, Chuck is shorter than Dave, and Dave is shorter than Adam, now put them in order of height. That's really simple in one dimension with just 4 facts. It should be possible to extend this in multiple dimensions with a much larger number of facts, where each fact can actually be discovered by itself in the game. When a group is able to analyze enough of the facts to solve the logic problem, then they finally have enough information to defeat the traps and challenge the evil wizard in his tower.
That's more of a long-term thing, though, rather than the kind of thing that you would be exposed to and defeat in a single dungeon.
But I have high hopes that a game system will one day support something like this, where scouts and spies gather intelligence over a long period of time through a large number of encounters, and then smart players analyze the intelligence to solve a puzzle that prepares them for the encounter with a powerful boss. That seems so much better than reading up on the encounter and watching it on YouTube.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is what I was thinking Nihimon. Especially since instances will be randomly generated...the modular content would mix and match. Yeah, for example, climbing might give access to a ledge...and might be found in a given instance, but might be missed in another since the appearance and layout of everything is completely different.
I assume once the instance is cleared it will disappear. So the repeating aspect found in other games will never occur.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I realize I might be hoping for the PFMMO to be too much like the PFP&P. At the least they can make situations that require skills to progress rather than combat skill. Make doors that really require high skill in lock picking to pass...and if the explorers do not bring someone who can pick locks at a high enough level...their loss (especially considering the instance then disappears).That I am in favor of, I'm not sure what percentage I am in favor of say doors that you cannot progress past unless they offer multiple options (say knock spells, lock picking or breaking the door down), note with multiple options that dosn't mean each way dosn't have drawbacks. Smashing the door down could say damage a weapon and cause a large ambush to appear further down the road. Knock spells might not be nearly as inexpensive as lockpicking etc...
Now for bonus extras, say an additional 10-25% extra loot, I have 0 complaints of a chest that can only be opened via a rogue, or a forcefield only breakable by a mage etc... The only note I would have to that, is it may need something close to balanced, mainly it can't just be 2 or so classes that have a chance to be the sole route for a bonus, every archtype needs a route to shine. In general when games make one class/archtype as the sole means to enter somewhere, it is compensating for the class being so gimp nobody would take it otherwise. IMO that is the wrong type of fix for such an issue.
A locked door should have as many different ways of passing it as a room full of goblins.
Goblinworks Founder
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If we look back over some of the older generation RPGs or even FPS games like Doom there are plenty of options to use. For example, DOOM had probably some of the best dungeon designs and it was a FPS, they were truly 3-dimensional dungeons with secret doors and keys hidden away that were required to unlock further sections. I've read in a few game designer blogs over the years that they removed these things for being cliche or just bad design but in all honesty it's simple things like this, when combined with other simple mechanics that can really flesh out a good dungeon.
A list of things I would love to see would be:
- Key requirements to unlock section. ie; Get portcullis key from goblin shaman in order to access unrelated section of dungeon.
- Disarmable Traps
- Pressure Plate traps
- Monster Activated Traps
- Pit Traps
- Secret Doors
- Illusionary walls (or floors)
- Hidden submerged passageways that might lead to a key or lever to open another section
- Puzzle Traps (Non-disarmable
- Hieroglyphic puzzles (Can be RNG'd)
- Circuit board puzzles (Can be RNG'd)
- Word Riddles (Can be RNG'd)
- I definitely want to see Doors that can be unlocked, bashed down or opened via spells. This means that even if you don't have a Rogue with the group it can still be accessible. Albeit a little slower.
Most importantly of all I want to see:
Multi-Sectioned Dungeons
Something that might have a whole level that can be soloed with a scripted mini-boss and a level boss, but the second level of the dungeon and the deeper you go the more people you need to bring along. You might need a specific class or ability to open a section of one of the later levels, be it through a dispel magic, open locks, feat of strength, bard song or even something as simple as a healing spell. The ability is the key that opens the section and it can be as random as the instance itself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mazes, riddles, puzzles, traps...
Treasure!
I think DDO has done instances better than any MMO I've personally seen. They seriously put a lot of effort into them. Most of their raids are far more than just figuring out who's the tank and who's the healer. The warforged titan raid is probably the best example of just how ridiculously intricate one can make a quest: maze after puzzle after puzzle, and when you finally get to the boss you can't kill him by just straight fighting, you have to use controls to line up everything in the room to damage him after someone topples a pillar onto him. And agro? Forget it. The titan is constantly picking new targets.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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If we look back over some of the older generation RPGs or even FPS games like Doom there are plenty of options to use. For example, DOOM had probably some of the best dungeon designs and it was a FPS, they were truly 3-dimensional dungeons with secret doors and keys hidden away that were required to unlock further sections. I've read in a few game designer blogs over the years that they removed these things for being cliche or just bad design but in all honesty it's simple things like this, when combined with other simple mechanics that can really flesh out a good dungeon.
A list of things I would love to see would be:
- Key requirements to unlock section. ie; Get portcullis key from goblin shaman in order to access unrelated section of dungeon.
- Disarmable Traps
- Pressure Plate traps
- Monster Activated Traps
- Pit Traps
- Secret Doors
- Illusionary walls (or floors)
- Hidden submerged passageways that might lead to a key or lever to open another section
- Puzzle Traps (Non-disarmable
- Hieroglyphic puzzles (Can be RNG'd)
- Circuit board puzzles (Can be RNG'd)
- Word Riddles (Can be RNG'd)
- I definitely want to see Doors that can be unlocked, bashed down or opened via spells. This means that even if you don't have a Rogue with the group it can still be accessible. Albeit a little slower.Most importantly of all I want to see:
Multi-Sectioned Dungeons
Something that might have a whole level that can be soloed with a scripted mini-boss and a level boss, but the second level of the dungeon and the deeper you go the more people you need to bring along. You might need a specific class or ability to open a section of one of the later levels, be it through a dispel magic, open locks, feat of strength, bard song or even something as simple as a healing spell. The ability is the key that opens the section and it can be as random as the instance itself.
I could see puzzle/riddle/logic trap/locks that provided additional information to the player based on the player's merit badges: Give the player with the 'standard' relevant ability just enough information to solve the problem. Players who have abilities superior to the puzzle would get more information (and therefore an easier puzzle), while those without the relevant abilities would be required to guess rather than being able to solve it; skilled players might be able to make better guesses.
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Goblinworks Founder
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I think DDO has done instances better than any MMO I've personally seen. They seriously put a lot of effort into them.
I agree. Although I think they can be done better. Out of all the modern MMO's I would hold DDO in my favorite for dungeon designs. Even the low level Waterworks was an absolute blast to play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just brainstorming some on-combat ways to overcome obstacles:
-Skill/ability/merit-based checks to understand a diagram, statue, painting, rune, etc. to open a door
-Size-based entrance. Someone size S to crawl into an opening to then unlock a door/passage.
-Jump skill to reach a ledge or span a pit to get to an opening device.
-Balance skill to tightwalk a rope.
-Climb skill to get to a ledge as above.
-Disguise check to walk past sentries. Stealth past sentries.
-Slight of hand to get key from powerful opponent.
-Use rope check to create a temporary line/bridge.
-Performance check to soothe a beast/magical guardian.
-Profane/blessed ward that needs a bless/consecrate or bane/desecrate spell cast to temporarily open the ward.
-Natural area that requires "Speak with Animals" or animal empathy to find path/remove obstacle.
-Dense forest that requires Know Direction/Diminish Plants/Find the Path/Commune w/ Nature to navigate
-A broken mechanism that requires a mending spell or a profession check to repair in order to open the way.
-Alignment restriction must be overcome either through "Undectable Alignment" or UMD
-Siren (or other sound based obstacle) that can be overcome with counter-song or "Silence" spell.
-Checks that are high enough to require morale/competence boosts (i.e. need a bard's help).
-Psychic/mental obstacles (a mind-numbing fog, a magical aura of confusion) that requires arcane mental protection or slippery/still mind-type of feat.
-Deep pit that requires rope use, climb, or slow-fall to negotiate.
I'm sure there are a lot more--suggestions?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think a dungeon/instance may have a probability of something very dangerous in any form appearing. This would lead to a party making moment by moment decisions to analyse the risk of moving forwards: "I vote this is too risky/dangerous; we've got some gains this could be very dangerous, let's finish and head back now" type of consideration vs "I can make it/kill it!" charging always forwards.
IE not 100% balanced, maybe throw in the odd spanner every 5% of the time?
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Goblin Squad Member
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One suggestion I might make is that these skill-locked objectives could be better implemented as bonuses.
I think it'd be frustrating to stumble upon one of the randomly-generated dungeons, work halfway through it, and find that you can't complete the dungeon without <X> skill. Or perhaps if the traps are single-attempt situations, to miss it on the first try.
But bonuses could be hidden away for detailed explorers, folks who are good at puzzles, or characters who possess certain skills.
I'm not sure if the randomly generated dungeons will have a main objective besides exploration, but this way, you don't end up wasting an hour on something that was impossible for you to complete (for one reason or another) from the start. I don't want to reward mediocrity, but at the same time, I'd hate to see folks who try something new get punished for doing so.
Alternatively, as some folks have touched upon, you can make the 'main objective' of a dungeon accessible via dozens of paths. I think this would be harder to randomly generate though. Also, if it doesn't matter what skills you use to get to the end, chances are folks will use the skill that's fastest or easiest to level up, making the alternatives obsolete.
This becomes less a problem when there are some objectives included as bonuses (perhaps, with better rewards than the 'main' objective), because as long as all the skills are used in /some/ dungeons on a fairly equal basis, you need not design (or randomly generate) every dungeon to make use of every skill.
And a kudos to DDO from me as well. I haven't played as much of it as I should, but I think they've done a great job mixing up the formula you see in dungeon design these days.
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The punishment for failing a noncombat portion of the dungeon should be similar in scope to failing a combat portion.
Well, trap-based punishments can be harsh if a party fails to complete a noncombat portion, such as spikes falling from the ceiling, lava flowing into the room, etc. Yet I foresee that the most common form of implementing this will be the increase of difficulty in subsequent combat encounters. For example, if you fail a puzzle, it could cause the mummies in the next room to awaken and join their fellow undead in their crypt. Or, if you bust down a door, it could alert the cultists inside to an intrusion and have them call a demon to their help protect their hidden shrine. So on and so forth.
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Goblinworks Founder
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The punishment for failing a noncombat portion of the dungeon should be similar in scope to failing a combat portion.Well, trap-based punishments can be harsh if a party fails to complete a noncombat portion, such as spikes falling from the ceiling, lava flowing into the room, etc. Yet I foresee that the most common form of implementing this will be the increase of difficulty in subsequent combat encounters. For example, if you fail a puzzle, it could cause the mummies in the next room to awaken and join their fellow undead in their crypt. Or, if you bust down a door, it could alert the cultists inside to an intrusion and have them call a demon to their help protect their hidden shrine. So on and so forth.
I think traps can be punishing without being save vs death. They could also add much more flavour to standard dungeon battles. Spikes falling from the ceiling is an example of something that could be used in conjunction with alerting nearby Goblins or awakening mummies as you suggested. Pit traps could force a split party if the pit leads to another section of the dungeon and is unable to be climbed/roped out of.
A puzzle trap could seal off the room (and possibly split the party) and begin to flood the room with the puzzle, putting more stress on the players that are trying to decipher the puzzle. Flame Traps or Glyphs might be more punishing to slow reactions, if a player isn't paying attention it might kill them if they continue to stand in the fire for 3 seconds or more. A Gelatinous Cube might dwell in the bottom of a pit trap and the player lands on top of it being automatically paralysed and subsequently absorbed while his team mates try to free him. There are so many possibilities for content like this.|
Goblin Squad Member
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The punishment for failing a noncombat portion of the dungeon should be similar in scope to failing a combat portion.
I agree with that sentiment, under the condition that a noncombat portion is possible with similar sets of classes as a combat portion.
IE a fight could be completed with a combination of virtually any 4 classes, assuming they eliminate the trinity as it sounds like they intend to do.
I strongly would not like them to re-invent the trinity in a different form for non-combat encounters. IE instead of being screwed if you don't have a cleric + a tank with minimum X defense, instead you are screwed if you don't have a rogue with rank 4 lockpicking, or a monk with rank 5 climb.
I am absolutely fine and in favor of puzzles assuming they are plausible to handle the needed randomization that I believe the dungeons will need etc... I am fine with specific classes or builds being able to earn extra bonuses, IE allowing the party to skip past certain combat challenges, gaining an extra 10-20% treasure etc...
I am opposed to any archetype or build being absolutely necessary to complete dungeons, for either the combat or non-combat portions.
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Goblinworks Founder
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I personally would rather have dungeons big enough that you might need a specific class to unlock a portion. The mindset that you aren't going to be able to conquer it all in one go. I'm thinking undermountain or ToEE. Smaller linear dungeons that a party of any class is fine too but I really would love to see a true maze of a dungeon that is solo friendly but might require you to gather some friends for some sections or to access some.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I personally would rather have dungeons big enough that you might need a specific class to unlock a portion. The mindset that you aren't going to be able to conquer it all in one go. I'm thinking undermountain or ToEE. Smaller linear dungeons that a party of any class is fine too but I really would love to see a true maze of a dungeon that is solo friendly but might require you to gather some friends for some sections or to access some.
Why make it solo friendly if you are going to need to gather people anyway? That kind of leaves 3 options, run first half of dungeon, jog 30 minutes back to town to find someone who wants to make a 30 minute trip just to do one tiny part before being dismissed, repeat multiple times?
Or 2. Bring in the 4 people you are going to need anyway, and breeze through challenges that are made for 1.
3. Don't bother with dungeons until you have mixed and taken enough of each archetype that you will need for any of the challenges.
Personally I'm not a huge fan of solo anything in an MMO, call it my quirk but to me playing an MMO to solo is kind of like inviting friends over to play solitaire. That being said I am aware that there are people who either 1. are very particular about who they want to team up with, and would like something semi-productive to do while waiting on their friends to sign on, and 2. Anti-social MMO players who more or less consider other players as competition to their high score.
Because of that I perfectly understand and respect desires to have solo portions of the game, I far prefer for them to be optional, (my biggest pet peeve in MMOs is games where it is so inefficient to party outside of instances, which are only productive to do once every 10 levels or so, that you pretty much can't rationally spend more then 5-10% of your playing time in a group, I want a game that if I want to spend 95% of my time in groups, I should be able to without bringing myself to a very low reward, and having to force someone else to do the same). But I do believe that if that is the case, some activities should be solo-able, some group-able, but I absolutely can't see the value in solo difficulty challenges, that will require gathering groups to complete, that seems to me to be the worse of both worlds. Doubly so in a game without instantaneous travel where getting too and from a dungeon, is a danger.
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Goblinworks Founder
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Try not to think of my post as a solo dungeon that requires a group. Instead think of it as a dungeon that caters to solo, group and raids depending on which area of the dungeon you are Delving into. Take the Dungeons below Thornkeep for example, depending on how deep you decide to venture, you might not need more than two people to explore the first level, as you delve deeper you might discover that an ancient laboratory and it's occupants are too powerful for just two people so you call some friends. Maybe you need a thief to unlock; warrior to bash down or mage to dispel the door to a new unexplored section. You might know ahead of time that climbing is required, it doesn't necessarily need a certain class but might require climbing gear. The idea is that the dungeon is not intended to be completed in one half hour session by going from point A to B to C killing generic boss at each point for loot. Instead the intention is to have a dungeon the equivelant size of an MMo zone that is filled with content for various groups of players to explore, without a goal of winning or beating the dungeon but instead the goal being to explore it in bite size chunks with the knowledge that you can't do it all or you might fail. Something that might challenge us by having more traditional PnP dungeon in a MmO environment
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Goblin Squad Member
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Instead the intention is to have a dungeon the equivelant size of an MMo zone that is filled with content for various groups of players to explore, without a goal of winning or beating the dungeon but instead the goal being to explore it in bite size chunks with the knowledge that you can't do it all or you might fail. Something that might challenge us by having more traditional PnP dungeon in a MmO environment
So more or less a forgotten realms undermountain style of area... interesting concept though it leads one huge question. Would this be instanced, or open... As open I see a huge issue, IE you hit a roadblock, there is no point in going back to the same spot you found, as odds are someone else will have cleared it before you get back. Not to mention I am kind of hoping the game stays away from regular respawns etc... that would be pretty necessary to prevent 3/4ths of the top level from having been half way stripped by large groups on their way to the later levels.
As an instance... well now it's even more akward and kind of against most of their plans for the dungeons. namely them not being in the same place, despawning etc... and the huge majorly immersion breaking concept of the same dungeon appearing different each time you go into it in a different group. The general ideas behind lairs/dungeons etc... from the blogs, is more or less dungeons that aren't the same and once they are cleared they are gone. I could certainly see with the system the average dungeon run is far more diverse, you have no idea where point C is, you may have absolutely no clue the power of what is inside of the dungeon before you enter. I have heard virtually nothing to imply the dungeons you find are guaranteed to be "Level appropriate", with the system it has, many dungeon crawls may already be a "lets go in and see how far we can get"
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Goblinworks Founder
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I would imagine it being instanced and public. The reason for instancing would be so you could dedicate a whole zone worth of content into it. Being instanced/public would be so you could meet people within the dungeon, whether you team up to get past certain sections or just kill each other would be part of the fun.
This idea would not be the regular spawning/despawning dungeons that are going to be in PFO. It would be an epic feature just like the T1-4 Temple of Elemental Evil was or Ruins of Myth Drannor, Castle Greyhawk (or the unreleased PFRPG Thornkeep). There can be ways to find holes in any idea, and I appreciate being pointed out what the flaws are, try to think of solutions at the same time, I solve problems for a living so I enjoy it even if it is clearly hypothetical. The respawns for example, if a group of players had cleared a section, instead of the same monsters respawning, have the monsters that weren't cleared nearby fill the void. Or better yet, allow the players the option to establish a small camp and fortify that section if they want. The fortification would only be temporary though, if they log off, monsters will break it down and once again fill the void.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I truly hope that Encampments and the Type 3 Dungeons (multiple entrances, allow multiple parties, impacts area encounters) both have final challenges in them that require a significant amount of work to build up to. It would be my Holy Grail if there were other encounters where intelligence was gathered that, if properly analyzed, would reveal the clues necessary to defeat the final encounter.