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So... I've always hated the way multiclassing works in D&D 3.X and Pathfinder. I've been trying to fix it, nearly consistently, for the past fifteen years and I've gotten into a lot of stupid and pointless arguments with people who don't think it needs to be fixed.
Luckily, I am now in possession of Tipsy Tabby Publishing's Overhauling Multiclassing rules, which use a much more elegant implementation of fixed-progression Gestalt than my own-- you may select one secondary class, you take multiclass feats (with ability prerequisites a la 5e) to upgrade your chassis, and when you're at least 5th level with at least 2 multiclassing feats, you can take the Cross-Training feat that gives you all of the class features of your secondary class at your character level -4.
This is leagues better than the original system, and likewise leagues better than anything I ever came up with.
But there are still four major problems that I think can be improved, and that I'd like to address.
- Cost versus Benefit: Three feats for all of the class features of a secondary class just feels too good. Compare five feats for all of the "benefits" of Variant Multiclassing. Being multiclassed needs to detract something from the primary class, as well. (But my previous attempt to use Level Adjustment were awful.)
- Low Level Characters: You don't get any of the class features of your secondary class until 5th level. Many games don't even last that long.
- Triple-Class Characters: Not supported. This probably isn't much of a problem, because you can approximate most classic AD&D triples with the right Archetypes and Hybrids.
- Prestige Classes: Not supported, and this is the reason I'm starting this thread.
Cost Versus Benefit
I think I've got this one licked, as long as I don't try to implement Triple-Class characters. Also, for the record, I am an idiot sandwich. Pathfinder already has a mechanism for encouraging characters to stay single-class: Favored Class Bonuses. Single-class characters get Favored Class Bonuses; the level they take a multiclass feat, they stop.
Low-Level Characters
Just add a multiclass feat that grants the 1st-level features of the chosen class. This is your entry-level multiclass feat, overwritten by Cross-Training later.
Triple-Class Characters
I've got nothing, and I'm honestly half-convinced that I shouldn't even attempt this. On the other hand, I really want to.
Prestige Classes
This is a real sticking point because a lot of cool concepts in 3.X and PF are gated behind the Prestige Class system. Also, a lot of the later "multige" classes did unique things beyond just +1 spellcaster level/+1 spellcaster level that... should be available to multiclass characters in some capacity, but probably aren't worth a whole class with fixed progression.
And there's the rub: most Prestige Classes are obviously designed to replace the class features of the base class, not co-exist with them. +1 spellcaster level is only the most obvious example... but in a fixed progression game, it's meaningless. Easy enough to ignore, but suddenly a 5/10 casting PrC is the exact same as a 10/10 casting PrC.
I'm generally thinking that your first (and only) Prestige Class should just be "free": meet the prerequisites, choose it, and advance. Prestige Classes would not count against being single-classed for the purposes of FCBs. There's a part of me that wants to support having more than one Prestige Class, but I'm pretty sure that would lead to nothing but shenanigans and ruination.
So that's where I'm at. Any ideas?
I don't allow multiclassing, VMC or otherwise, with Gestalt at my table. As if having two full classes somehow isn't enough.
Anyways, I don't see what it is you are trying to fix. You said you have been trying to fix multiclassing for 15 years, but you didn't say what it is about multiclassing you are trying to fix.
What do you find inherently wrong with the current multiclassing system?
You said that multiclassing should take something away from the original class, and it does in the current system. Denying of the capstone ability, lower caster level...
VMC also already exists and your proposed method makes VMC completely useless, but you have already mentioned the unbalanced nature of 3 feats for all the class features versus 5 feats for the VMC class features.
I, personally, do not see what it is you are trying to change.
Why make it any more complicated than it has to be?
For multiclassing, if you want a class feature from another class, you take levels in that class until you have the feature you want. Or pay the feat price of VMC, either way, it's simple.
For Gestalt, pick two classes, and combine them... simple.
Prestige classes are also simple... you either meet the requirements or you don't... why should they ever be "free"?
I don't allow multiclassing, VMC or otherwise, with Gestalt at my table. As if having two full classes somehow isn't enough.
... I really think you missed the point. This system uses a limited form of Gestalt as multiclassing-- it is not trying to allow Gestalt and multiclassing.
The entire rest of your post is you trying to tell me there's nothing wrong with the current rules and to just use the existing rules-- or an existing rules variant-- instead. This is the exact thing I was referring to as "stupid and pointless" in literally the second sentence of my post.
What do you find inherently wrong with the current multiclassing system?
Everything. It doesn't make narrative sense and it encourages character builds that don't make narrative sense. It forces class design to delay iconic class features until mid-level or later. It does not support classical AD&D multiclass character archetypes, nor any archetype in which a character progresses equally in two or more classes.
It doesn't support multiclassing, period.
But I have already had all of these arguments on these forums, and I am not interested in having these arguments again.
The system in the book that I linked to, that I have partially described in the OP, solves most of the problems I have with multiclassing-- in fact, the only problems it does not solve are the ones I have specifically listed in the OP.
This is the system I am planning to use. If you would like me to describe it in further detail, I would be happy to-- but telling me there's nothing wrong with the rules and that I don't need to fix them is a waste of time.
“Current multiclassing is fine.” I mean, with your dismissive and antagonistic tone, you’re basically asking for posts like this.
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Ok.
As for 3+ classes in your quasi-gestalt multiclassing madness, it is exactly the same as two classes...
You choose your main class.
Take 3 feats for a 2nd class at -4 levels.
Take 3 feats for a 3rd class at -4 levels.
You can take 3 more feats and add a 4th class at -4 levels if you want.
Prestige classes are equally simple to incorporate into your system...
The prestige class replaces your main class... just like it does when you single class into a prestige class.
Your multiclassing classes continue unaffected because they are "bought" with the 3 feats (each)... just like VMC continues through a prestige class.
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Your multiclassing classes continue unaffected because they are "bought" with the 3 feats (each)... just like VMC continues through a prestige class.
Thank you. I know I came back at you a little too hot, and I really appreciate you responding in good faith.
The idea of the Prestige Class replacing the main class has merit... it bothers me on some level, but I'll have to think about it further.