My group is struggling to find a way to prebuff before a fight. There are a couple spells we would like to pop before battle and not during battle (Blur, Stoneskin). However, we are finding we just encounter enemies and initiative begins immediately. What are some safe ways to scout, we have a stealthy character and a Wild druid in the party, those are the two best potential scouting options. But how would you recommend we do safe reconnaissance so we have time to prebuff?
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Divinations, such as Clairaudience or Augury, are generally the safest thing. Even a rogue in stealth scouting risks being found and triggering a very bad encounter. Vigilant Eye, in particular, seems the best possible option.
But that's just me being a wizard.
Divinations, such as Clairaudience or Augury, are generally the safest thing. Even a rogue in stealth scouting risks being found and triggering a very bad encounter. Vigilant Eye, in particular, seems the best possible option.
But that's just me being a wizard.
It's not just wizardly you; you're right.
With the limited duration of most buffs (and the alterations to spell volume & wands), scouting is the best way to determine when to cast those spells. And Stealth is an iffy way to scout given the high Perceptions of enemies, plus unusual senses, maybe traps, and so forth. Therefore divinations and other magical foresight are the best ways to go.Not that I think a buffing strategy is the best method nowadays, but it's hard to shake those PF1 norms. And if you can get some up in a key fight, then yay! Though I do recall some instances in PF1 where there were fake final battles that'd blow your short-term buffs before the actual finale.
Is there ever a time in combat where you would spend two precious actions to ever cast Blur or Stoneskin on an ally?
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Is there ever a time in combat where you would spend two precious actions to ever cast Blur or Stoneskin on an ally?
My monk can barely find the time to spend one action to go into a stance.
Blur, no because I wouldn't have it. I'd prefer Mirror Image or Invisibility (or maybe something else). I suppose I might later have it on a wand, where I'd use it vs. bosses where one miss (which might be all you get) could swing the battle.
Stoneskin, yes. Think of it as pre-healing. It might not be great against a boss with its larger numbers, but against significant thugs, you might see the whole spell used up, meaning you got 100 h.p. from a 4th level slot. Pretty good normally, and awesome if your in-combat healing is limited.
(Twenty hits would hopefully be unusual, though not unheard of during a major battle.)
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Stoneskin is a 20 minutes buff, this is one spell that is definitively possible to prebuff, just like Heroism that is a 10 minutes one and stuff that Imperial Sorcerer can extend.
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It's not just wizardly you; you're right.
Those two are the same thing.
That said there are useful buffs that are more than worth the two actions, even three if you want. I mean, a 4th level Reaching Energy Resistance lets you safely turn the fight for the two frontliners at times, I have no issue spending three actions on it. And I haven't ever considered not preparing Magic Weapon on any first level session.
However, yeah, buffing in combat is good, but buffing before combat is very hard. Stuff like Enlarge, Freedom of Movement, Resist Energy, Stoneskin and all the 10min duration spells are good and handy, but require some ability to at least spend a turn with forewarning.
Real longterm stuff, like Water Breathing, Circle of Protection or Spell Turning should get a bookmark in your spell book, but tends to be less combat-enhancing and more utility-based.
If you can't tell, I'm specifically an Abjurer :P
It's not just wizardly you; you're right.Those two are the same thing.
That said there are useful buffs that are more than worth the two actions, even three if you want. I mean, a 4th level Reaching Energy Resistance lets you safely turn the fight for the two frontliners at times, I have no issue spending three actions on it. And I haven't ever considered not preparing Magic Weapon on any first level session.
However, yeah, buffing in combat is good, but buffing before combat is very hard. Stuff like Enlarge, Freedom of Movement, Resist Energy, Stoneskin and all the 10min duration spells are good and handy, but require some ability to at least spend a turn with forewarning.
Real longterm stuff, like Water Breathing, Circle of Protection or Spell Turning should get a bookmark in your spell book, but tends to be less combat-enhancing and more utility-based.
If you can't tell, I'm specifically an Abjurer :P
Oh no, your not just an Abjurer. You sir are a legend. Your posts are always very informative, your insight is greatly appreciated.
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Big tip:
Open AoN. Go to Search. Untick everything but spells. Search for "minutes" or "hour".
That Terrain Stalker Feat (albeit situational) seems great for Stealth specialist scouting, although the wording confused me at 1st...
I think another interesting change of paradigm is allowing parties to viably roll Stealth collectively,
thru Follow the Leader and/or EDIT:Quiet Allies that lets just the one lowest person roll once for the group.
With or without Terrain Stalker, a party's 2 Stealth specialists can be even more successful together (w/ Circumstance and single roll)
While entire group may not all have high DEX/skill, it's still plausible to be successfull often enough to be worthwhile,
and when it does fail, you can still be together to fight as a party even if you didn't gain ideal advantage of Stealth.
But when you do win Stealth, that is the sort of opportunity for even just 1 round of pre-buffing which can be great.
(which could even include martials switching to optimum weapon type etc)
Also being able to integrate some pre-emptive movement for positioning can be just as important part of exploiting that situation.
Magically scouting ahead is the safest way.
At higher levels, a rogue with Sneak Savant can pretty reasonably do it. They aren't spotted unless someone is actively searching (first effect of the spell) which means no one is going to randomly spot them and no random bad rolls getting them caught. Second effect is that you treat failure like a success (though you can still crit fail). This means you're pretty safe, but if something goes wrong the wrong is likely dead unless they have some sort of magical GTFO button, so it's still pretty risky.
The magical GTFO button actually isn't that hard to come by, believe it or not. One example is sending a monk in to scout. Even if they get spotted, they usually have the durability to survive for a round and can then outrun most threats back to the party, shouting a warning that can effectively provide the party a round to prebuff if the enemy pursues. Luring an enemy back to your friends is also a great way to utilize Snares, and Snare damage is absurdly high. There are talismans that let you turn invisible, too, or if you're a caster you can always dimension door out of danger.
But also, don't forget you can always use Deception to walk in like you own the place. A little magic and planning can go a long way to making an enemy soldier think you're one of them, or even their boss. Not only can you find out about enemies in the next room and return to your party unmolested, you can potentially ask the enemy questions and find out key Intel, or even deliver fake orders for all kinds of hijinks. (Having a magical GTFO button usually becomes even more important here, though.)
The magical GTFO button actually isn't that hard to come by, believe it or not. One example is sending a monk in to scout. Even if they get spotted, they usually have the durability to survive for a round and can then outrun most threats back to the party, shouting a warning that can effectively provide the party a round to prebuff if the enemy pursues. Luring an enemy back to your friends is also a great way to utilize Snares, and Snare damage is absurdly high.
As a monk player who has actually attempted this, I cant say I recommend it. The potential returns for being a sacrificial lamb just aren't worth it.
Most of the time, by the time you're able to spot the threat, they're already close enough to reach you within three move actions. It doesn't take much for even weak enemies to win initiative and block off your retreat before you get to act. Even if you can single handedly fight your way out, they only need stall you long enough for the big guns to arrive.
Shouting a warning is also a great way to draw in multiple encounters at once, which you won't be able to handle easily even if you do get back to your party.
No. I've done all of that. It has made for some of the worst 2e games we've had to date.
Never split the party. It's practically roleplaying 101.
The magical GTFO button actually isn't that hard to come by, believe it or not. One example is sending a monk in to scout. Even if they get spotted, they usually have the durability to survive for a round and can then outrun most threats back to the party, shouting a warning that can effectively provide the party a round to prebuff if the enemy pursues. Luring an enemy back to your friends is also a great way to utilize Snares, and Snare damage is absurdly high.As a monk player who has actually attempted this, I cant say I recommend it. The potential returns for being a sacrificial lamb just aren't worth it.
Most of the time, by the time you're able to spot the threat, they're already close enough to reach you within three move actions. It doesn't take much for even weak enemies to win initiative and block off your retreat before you get to act. Even if you can single handedly fight your way out, they only need stall you long enough for the big guns to arrive.
Shouting a warning is also a great way to draw in multiple encounters at once, which you won't be able to handle easily even if you do get back to your party.
No. I've done all of that. It has made for some of the worst 2e games we've had to date.
Never split the party. It's practically roleplaying 101.
It seems pretty difficult to cut a determined monk off to me. Even if they physically block a doorway, you can always Tumble Through them. The worst case scenario is you wind up grabbed, but monks are going to be good at some combination of Escape action options. No, none of that is 100% success rates, but it certainly gives you options. Plus there are some monks that can teleport.
Also, if a screaming retreat is going to bring more enemies to the scene, that was already going to happen because enemies will probably yell for backup. And even then, if you're players are smart they have set up in a strong position and can unload on individual enemies as they arrive on the scene.
Tumbling isn't so easy in this edition, even for monks. If they're blocking the only exit, you need to spend an action to move up to them, then another action to tumble past each individual enemy. You only need one bad roll. Even if you make all the rolls, you still waste a few actions and move through enemy spaces at half speed. Remember, unless they are alone, they don't have to stop you, only slow you down long enough for their friends to catch up.
Your other points are pretty sound.
...you need to spend an action to move up to them, then another action to tumble past each individual enemy. You only need one bad roll. Even if you make all the rolls, you still waste a few actions and move through enemy spaces at half speed. Remember, unless they are alone, they don't have to stop you, only slow you down long enough for their friends to catch up.
Your other points are pretty sound.
Where did you get that ruling from?
MOVE
You Stride up to your Speed. During this movement, you can try to move through the space of one enemy...
Also your descriptions sounds alot like like your GM is metagaming your enemies? Or why do they batch move all past you just to block the exit en masse instead of just trying to swarm you? Lining up for the lightning bolt of your invisible and stealthy mage friend that waits a couple of feet behind?
What they said, yeah. That does sound awfully metagamey. It isn't like the enemy knows your a monk who can outrun them or that you're alone. That's pretty blatant. At most, I could see someone trying to grab you, which provides a lot of tactical advantages. Also... Where are you when you get spotted? The answer should almost always be peaking in from outside the door because that is how line of sight works. If anything they should be needing to tumble through you to get behind you.
Seems I misremembered a bit. It's still limited to one enemy per action though from the looks of it.
I'm not seeing what's metagamy about it. If you turn a corner and are suddenly faced with multiple adversaries who decide they want to kill you, cutting off your escape (however they can) seems like a pretty common sense tactic.
But that's neither here nor there. We're quickly getting into edge cases at this point. Best we get back on track with the original discussion (pre-combat buffs).
Seems I misremembered a bit. It's still limited to one enemy per action though from the looks of it.
I'm not seeing what's metagamy about it. If you turn a corner and are suddenly faced with multiple adversaries who decide they want to kill you, cutting off your escape (however they can) seems like a pretty common sense tactic.
But that's neither here nor there. We're quickly getting into edge cases at this point. Best we get back on track with the original discussion (pre-combat buffs).
I mean, gathering intelligence through scouting or divination is the best way to prebuff, so we are still pretty on topic.
An enemy attempting to tumble through your space to cut you off instead of attacking you just seems like a really strange decision to me. I can certainly see them moving into a flank-- even tumbling to do so if they are trained in acrobatics-- but that's providing a notable edge to their allies in taking you down, not just cutting you off. And you should be able to slip by a single enemy.
If you're indoors, they don't have to run at you or through you at all. Just towards all the available exits.
If you're indoors, they don't have to run at you or through you at all. Just towards all the available exits.But if you're indoors, you don't sneak into a room with enemies in it. You sneak up to the entrance or other vantage point, note that there are baddies around, and sneak back and report. Even if you're spotted, you're already in the actual escape route.
That'd likely work fine in most anything but an ambush scenario.
That'd likely work fine in most anything but an ambush scenario.If you're indoors, they don't have to run at you or through you at all. Just towards all the available exits.But if you're indoors, you don't sneak into a room with enemies in it. You sneak up to the entrance or other vantage point, note that there are baddies around, and sneak back and report. Even if you're spotted, you're already in the actual escape route.
If they laying in ambush they already know you're coming, so you shouldn't be trying to sneak up on them anyway.
I'm not seeing what's metagamy about it. If you turn a corner and are suddenly faced with multiple adversaries who decide they want to kill you, cutting off your escape (however they can) seems like a pretty common sense tactic.
Sorry, but I find that a bit metagamey.
Think of it the other way round. A PC party (the multiple creature party) random-encountering a wandering ogre (the lone scout) in a dungeon. How many times did the party go "block all exits!" instead of "kill the ogre"?
I'm not seeing what's metagamy about it. If you turn a corner and are suddenly faced with multiple adversaries who decide they want to kill you, cutting off your escape (however they can) seems like a pretty common sense tactic.Sorry, but I find that a bit metagamey.
Think of it the other way round. A PC party (the multiple creature party) random-encountering a wandering ogre (the lone scout) in a dungeon. How many times did the party go "block all exits!" instead of "kill the ogre"?
Not sure how your games are generally played, but if there was any advanced info (such as the notion that he was a scout that could bring us more pain), stopping the enemy from getting their way is exactly the first thing we'd attempt.
I'm guessing you're coming from a Pathfinder 1E or D&D 3.0/3.5 background where you could pretty much take out any foe in a round?
I'm not seeing what's metagamy about it. If you turn a corner and are suddenly faced with multiple adversaries who decide they want to kill you, cutting off your escape (however they can) seems like a pretty common sense tactic.Sorry, but I find that a bit metagamey.
Think of it the other way round. A PC party (the multiple creature party) random-encountering a wandering ogre (the lone scout) in a dungeon. How many times did the party go "block all exits!" instead of "kill the ogre"?Not sure how your games are generally played, but if there was any advanced info (such as the notion that he was a scout that could bring us more pain), stopping the enemy from getting their way is exactly the first thing we'd attempt.
I'm guessing you're coming from a Pathfinder 1E or D&D 3.0/3.5 background where you could pretty much take out any foe in a round?
What if your allies are just waiting around the corner for you though? If party can hit the scene and start attacking in the same round but I used all my actions to cut off exits, I've just wasted my one shot at killing you before backup arrives. Not to mention set at least one of my dudes up to get flanked.
And again, I don't know you're a monk. Without armor, you might very well be a caster who can just teleport away. I'd be much better off just stabbing you and relying on you being squishy. Even grappling wouldn't work great to trap you, as it is only a 20% spell failure. I might let everyone grab to increase the odds of failure I suppose.
Not really sure where this "what if" game is going to get us...
Not really sure where this "what if" game is going to get us...
Roleplaying 101: Get a better scout in order to be able to pre-buff. :P
The way we do it is move up to a room door or have a scout using stealth move up to an entrance, listen in the area or quietly pop the door and peak in, bring back the info, DM has everyone roll initiative as soon as we start pre-buffing, then counts down from there depending on length of buff and starts moves to engage.
Monsters usually don't start doing engagement actions unless they think something hostile is there or hear the scout to come look outside the door. Even if they do, generally its an interact action and then a seek unless they can obviously see us.
Then combat starts. Usually gives us a round or two of prebuffing which is usually enough considering we prefer the creature coming after us in the halls anyway.
As long as you have a dex-based character with maxed stealth or near max stealth with items, you can usually scout. Even if they start combat with a fail, you just start buffing from that point with the monsters usually having to move to get to you.
I'm sure you'll get asked about the heavy armor guy they hear or what not. What do you care is the answer? If monsters are going to constantly be popping their doors from movement in the hallway, then use that to your advantage once you see the behavior. Otherwise, monsters will likely sit and wait to see what comes into their cave or room or lair to ambush you. Since you've already spotted them and pre-buffed, then that isn't a problem for you. Just use delay actions until your big heavy goes and send them in the room to take the ambush hits.
If its a 5 or 10 minute spell, then move fast and hit whatever cluster of rooms is in the area without stopping if you can.
Pre-buffing should be fairly easy unless you don't have a scout or a DM willing to let you scout. I've noticed on these forums quite a few groups like to move up to a room, pop the door, roll initiative.
If your group wants to scout and pre-buff, then set up your strat for the given dungeon and do your scouting. It gets even easier at higher level when you can make cheap group invis or can build up stealth to crazy high levels with foil senses and things like Blank Slate if playing a rogue.
Well what about if your entering a dungeon and you cast Prying Eye. Would using this to get a view of the entire place be a good way to reliably prebuff before entering each dangerous area/room?
Sure, or whatever rooms you scouted and if your prying eye caster mapped it out.
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I can see why a GM could rule R2 longstrider wands to be too good. It noticeably stands out among spells as being far more popular as a wand choice than just about any other spell. That should be a clue that it might be a bit too good.
If I couldn't get a longstrider R2 wand, I'd still consider just spending a spell slot on it every day. By level 5 (the level of the wand) I think that's a solid use of a not-my-highest-rank slot.
So I guess if the GM doesn't allow it on a wand - prepare it from a slot, and buy a wand of a different R2 spell maybe? Today I watched a boss get destroyed by critically failing a save against Laughing Fit in the first round of combat.
The criterium for a wand is basically: do I want to use this spell every day, for the rest of the campaign? R2 longstrider, definitely. Laughing Fit, maybe. Most other spells? Not that many spells have high impact unless you heighten them to the point that the wand becomes expensive.
Although eventually my magus hand wands of heightened invisibility and telepathic bond as well.
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Paizo nerfed pre-buffing in PF2e, which IMO is one of the worst things they did to casters. Pre-buffing the right thing requires real engagement with the environment, world/lore, NPCs, plot, etc. by players.
Not in PF1 it didn't. A party that just stuck to the staples (barkskin, life bubble, etc) was MASSIVELY better off than one that didn't.
Entire dungeons were basically made trivial by life bubble, others by communal air walk.
Sure, from time to time being really engaged would let you do still better. But most of the time the staples were just fine and dandy thank you
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If you want pre-buffing, go with Alchemical Items. I mean, even if you ignore the Mutagens, Eagle-Eye Elixir, Bravo's Brew and (at later levels) Cheetah's Elixir are all solid 1-hour long buffs.
Personally, I'm getting a lot of mileage (in some cases, literally) out of being on Greater Quicksilver Mutagen for 7 out of the usual 8 hours in an adventuring day. (I save a Quicksilver in case I get ambushed overnight.)
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Paizo nerfed pre-buffing in PF2e, which IMO is one of the worst things they did to casters. Pre-buffing the right thing requires real engagement with the environment, world/lore, NPCs, plot, etc. by players.Not in PF1 it didn't. A party that just stuck to the staples (barkskin, life bubble, etc) was MASSIVELY better off than one that didn't.
Entire dungeons were basically made trivial by life bubble, others by communal air walk.
Sure, from time to time being really engaged would let you do still better. But most of the time the staples were just fine and dandy thank you
Yeah, "monsters that attack AC" is a pretty common category of things to buff against in PF1.
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I do think PF2 could do with some kind of improvement to scouting ahead. It's not an unreasonable fantasy to want to play. The scout that goes ahead, spots some enemies, and tells the rest of the party what to prep for. That's a reasonable fantasy trope. But it doesn't play out very well in PF2.
You can mitigate the risks by scouting with magic, but that's not really satisfying, is it? If you play a rogue or ranger it'd be nice if you could do it yourself, and that it wasn't a stupid risk. Or maybe that the witch can let their familiar do it.
I think a well-balanced "scout ahead carefully and report back" exploration activity is kinda missing in the system right now.
My GM is a jerk and said "wand of longstrider is broken it's not allowed"
Well it is a problem as most published monsters and encounters are based around certain unbuffed speed assumptions for the PCs and once everyone has longstrider it it gets a bits silly. Suddenly the party is just faster than 90% of enemies. Which gives them big action advatages.
Rules Lawyer has banned the whole spell in some of his games.
I as a GM I tend to use published modules but I keep the game challenging by responding to the player meta. So I tend to buff certain enemies by giving monsters in about half of the encounters +10 speed, so it is a more level playing field. Every now and then I have the PCs encounter something really fast (Quicklings and Dragons being the obvious choices) so they get to be on the recieving end as well.