I was reading a hazard that had a couple of unusual skills used to disable it, Religion(expert) or Performance(expert). I then started wondering how the characters would know to use those skills. Would someone who had those skills at the listed proficiency just know?
What Hazards?
"Marion, don't look at it! Shut your eyes Marion, don't look at it, no matter what happens..." - Indy
Apparently somebody knew how to use said skills. ;)
The question I think is whether the GM is supposed to just say: “you see x hazard, it looks like it can only be disarmed with y skills” or whether a hazard is supposed to be a bit of a logic puzzle for the PCs in determining for themselves how to overcome it.
For one requiring religion or perform, it is probably necessary to give the party clues that some ritual, or perception of a ritual is necessary to appease the artifact that is triggering this hazard.
What Hazards?
This particular hazard was a haunt. When I read the disable as a GM, I thought that it was a surprising list of skills and wondered how they would know which skills to use.
I didn't want to start a long question and answer session with the players every time they encounter a hazard that is disabled by something other than Disable Device. Having the skills just pop into their head seemed too easy. The only other thing that seemed reasonable was that someone who was an expert in Performance might recognize that Performance would work, same with Religion.
Sometimes though, it is Dispel Magic so what then? A caster knowledge proficiency level or maybe a easy skill check. I have also seen magical traps that seem like Dispel Magic should work, but don't. How would they know they know that other than wasting Dispel Magics?
What Hazards?This particular hazard was a haunt. When I read the disable as a GM, I thought that it was a surprising list of skills and wondered how they would know which skills to use.
I didn't want to start a long question and answer session with the players every time they encounter a hazard that is disabled by something other than Disable Device. Having the skills just pop into their head seemed too easy. The only other thing that seemed reasonable was that someone who was an expert in Performance might recognize that Performance would work, same with Religion.
Sometimes though, it is Dispel Magic so what then? A caster knowledge proficiency level or maybe a easy skill check. I have also seen magical traps that seem like Dispel Magic should work, but don't. How would they know they know that other than wasting Dispel Magics?
After getting almost TPK'd in Age of Ashes last night, I have this same question actually.
The most versatile method for deactivating traps is the Disable a Device action of the Thievery skill, though most mechanical traps can also simply be smashed, and magical traps can usually be counteracted. Environmental hazards often can be overcome with Nature or Survival, and haunts can often be overcome with Occultism or Religion. The specific skill and DC required to disable a hazard are listed in the hazard’s stat block. As with detecting a hazard, disabling a hazard might require a character to have a certain proficiency rank in the listed skill.
A character must first detect a hazard (or have it pointed out to them) to try to deactivate it. They can attempt to deactivate a hazard whether or not it has already been triggered, though some hazards no longer pose a danger once their reactions have occurred, especially if there is no way for them to be reset....
So, the character that wants to disable a hazard has to first know there is a hazard. That usually means the character (and player) have a basic understanding if it's a (mechanical or magical) trap, an environmental hazard or a haunt. Maybe they don't outright know how to disable it, but I'd allow an Occult check (at a low DC) to find out they could try a Perform check to disable that haunt.
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The question I think is whether the GM is supposed to just say: “you see x hazard, it looks like it can only be disarmed with y skills” or whether a hazard is supposed to be a bit of a logic puzzle for the PCs in determining for themselves how to overcome it.
For one requiring religion or perform, it is probably necessary to give the party clues that some ritual, or perception of a ritual is necessary to appease the artifact that is triggering this hazard.
I think you can do some hazards as logic puzzles. I've seen traps that would run for a minute, spraying you with acid. But if you just stepped out of the room, eventually the acid would run out and it'd be safe to bypass.
Other traps are just located on the most likely paths, and if you know where they are, you can walk around them or jump over them.
But I think logic puzzles are at their best when they're actually that, and not just another die roll obstacle. Like, "succeed at occult to know that you can use perform" is not a logical puzzle. That's just another check that you can fail at and get stuck on.
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So I think you can do puzzles occasionally, but I would keep the puzzles more as an alternative way of handling the hazard. The disable check is basically the brute force solution: just chuck dice at it. With PF2 rules (no take 10) and its calibrated DCs, that's not actually all that easy anymore. So the reward for being clever is not having to roll so many risky dice.
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The question I think is whether the GM is supposed to just say: “you see x hazard, it looks like it can only be disarmed with y skills” or whether a hazard is supposed to be a bit of a logic puzzle for the PCs in determining for themselves how to overcome it.
For one requiring religion or perform, it is probably necessary to give the party clues that some ritual, or perception of a ritual is necessary to appease the artifact that is triggering this hazard.
I think you can do some hazards as logic puzzles. I've seen traps that would run for a minute, spraying you with acid. But if you just stepped out of the room, eventually the acid would run out and it'd be safe to bypass.
Other traps are just located on the most likely paths, and if you know where they are, you can walk around them or jump over them.
But I think logic puzzles are at their best when they're actually that, and not just another die roll obstacle. Like, "succeed at occult to know that you can use perform" is not a logical puzzle. That's just another check that you can fail at and get stuck on.
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So I think you can do puzzles occasionally, but I would keep the puzzles more as an alternative way of handling the hazard. The disable check is basically the brute force solution: just chuck dice at it. With PF2 rules (no take 10) and its calibrated DCs, that's not actually all that easy anymore. So the reward for being clever is not having to roll so many risky dice.
Right, so how does the party figure out that performance, or maybe even deception, might work to fool the guardian stone demanding, "Perform true the sacrament of Nethys! OR SUFFER MINE WRATH!" Especially if someone in the party notices the stone and feels that something is amiss with it?
Personally, I'd run it where the first perception check just gives a sense of ill ease with the stone in the room ahead (assuming someone in the party had the necessary perception check to notice). Then the party starts asking questions:
Player of the rogue: Is it a trap?
GM: The sense of dread you get is menacing, to the point of danger, but you see no mechanical set up for a trap.
Wizard: Detect magic!
GM: you get a ping of magic from the room ahead.
Wizard: I'll read Aura.
GM: The stone radiates strongly with magic but not from the arcane discipline with which you are familiar. Its menace is more divine in nature (or occult, depending, maybe both).
Cleric: Can I recall any knowledge about stones like this, using my religion skill?
GM (makes check): You vaguely remember hearing that stones like this one where employed by Disciples of Nethys. Then I would either tell the player about the ritual itself if they rolled high, or that the stone would make a specific demand if approached with the necessary respect/reverence, but that its intelligence is rudimentary and might be able to be fooled.
Maybe not creating a full on Logic puzzle, but trying my best not to reducing play to:
Rogue: Is their a trap?
GM: It is not a trap exactly, but more like a haunt.
Party: We don't have anyone trained in Religion, are we just SOL?
GM: This haunt can also be bested by a perform check, or a really good deception check.
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I've simply been handling it as: if you are trained in one of the needed skills, you can recognize that that skill could theoretically be used to do something about the hazard. If you want to be more specific about it, you might limit that only to characters with the needed proficiency to make the roll, or maybe one lower - "in theory you think there's a ritual that might be able to quiet this spirit, but you wouldn't have the first idea where to start."
My perspective is simply that recognizing when a skill is applicable is part of what being trained in that skill means.
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I don't think the CRB assumption is that you need to pass any checks to know what kind of "thing" (haunt, trap, ....) you're dealing with, quite simply because the CRB doesn't list any such check.
Now, I can totally imagine that you want to sometimes do that, because you want this to be a special trap/haunt/etc. That's a bit like how the CRB has both simple and complex hazards.
Not every pit trap needs to be a whole production.
If you're going to require checks to figure out which checks can disable a trap, checks that you can fail (with some sort of consequence), then you've made disabling the trap harder. That's fine, but you need to be honest with yourself about that when examining how hard an encounter you're putting in your adventure.
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What Hazards?This particular hazard was a haunt.
Oh, these are particularly frustrating. I played (some of) Strange Aeons and I (as a player, mind!) started googling shit because there were no clues.
Yeah, point a mirror at it.
Sure.
At the begining of any incounter that includes a "Hazard" I would have the players all make a roll unless they say they are charging in hedlessly. Likely perception or an approprate lore or skill check. I'd give a DC depending on how obvous the hazard was. Any player who makes at least a simple level approprate DC I'd reveal it's a Hazard. Particularly good rolls I'd let know exactly what skills could be used to counter the hazard.
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At the begining of any incounter that includes a "Hazard" I would have the players all make a roll unless they say they are charging in hedlessly. Likely perception or an approprate lore or skill check. I'd give a DC depending on how obvous the hazard was. Any player who makes at least a simple level approprate DC I'd reveal it's a Hazard. Particularly good rolls I'd let know exactly what skills could be used to counter the hazard.
That's kind of double-edged. Giving all players a roll to spot the hazard, regardless of what they're doing is more generous to the party, but also devalues the choices of players who spent a feat on being able to still get a check to notice the hazard when doing something other than searching. Be careful about whether you're setting things up to be unfair to one of your players.
At the begining of any incounter that includes a "Hazard" I would have the players all make a roll unless they say they are charging in hedlessly. Likely perception or an approprate lore or skill check. I'd give a DC depending on how obvous the hazard was. Any player who makes at least a simple level approprate DC I'd reveal it's a Hazard. Particularly good rolls I'd let know exactly what skills could be used to counter the hazard.That's kind of double-edged. Giving all players a roll to spot the hazard, regardless of what they're doing is more generous to the party, but also devalues the choices of players who spent a feat on being able to still get a check to notice the hazard when doing something other than searching. Be careful about whether you're setting things up to be unfair to one of your players.
I think Timeshadow might not be giving players this check until they have already triggered the hazard, which Searching tries to avoid happening in the first place.
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Hey all - easing into running 2e and this came up in running the intro scenario for PFS2 a few months ago. So tried to get clarity and posted to the forums, but will repost here to see if we can shoot holes in my assumptions. So does the below make sense? NOTE on secret rolls - I run 2e with PCs rolling 10d20 rolls for their secret checks, and have a list of Perception pluses and likely skill pluses to add to roll. And roll d10 to randomly pick what d20 roll to start from (so PCs do not know if all first rolls were good to trust any checks early in session) Post > https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42sb4?Hazards-Summary#1
Hazard and Haunts
Hazard Regular-No Minimum Proficiency Rank
To Detect – Enter General Area - Secret Perception vs Traps Stealth DC
Understand how to deactivate – If Detected with Perception, then Known
Disable – Use listed Disable DC checks or Attack/Smash
Hazard Regular-With Minimum Proficiency Rank
To Detect – Enter General Area – Must be using Search Activity or Search Action, and must have listed proficiency or higher. Secret Perception vs Traps Stealth DC
Understand how to deactivate – If Detected with Perception, then Known
Disable – Use listed Disable DC checks or Attack/Smash
Hazard Magic-No Minimum Proficiency Rank
To Detect – Enter General Area or Range of Detect Magic – Secret Perception vs Traps Stealth DC or Detect Magic
Understand how to deactivate - If Detected with Perception, then Known; If Detected with Detect Magic, use Identify Magic or Recall Knowledge
Disable – Use listed Disable DC checks or Dispel Magic
Hazard Magic-With Minimum Proficiency Rank
To Detect – Enter General Area – Must be using Search Activity or Search Action, and must have listed proficiency or higher. Secret Perception vs Traps Stealth DC, Cannot be found using Detect Magic
Understand how to deactivate - If Detected with Perception, then Known
Disable – Use listed Disable DC checks or Dispel Magic