Gishy Melee Bard - dedication advice


Advice


Working on my first PF2 character for PFS. The versatility of bards is appealing, but I don't want to necessarily play the 'Face' role at the table. So thinking take Enigma bard and go high strength, and low charisma for more of a smart gish build. Pick buffing type spells that don't require a save like magic weapon.

The later class feats for bard are limited and don't seem that exciting. So I'm looking for some advice on dedications.

Fighter seems the obvious choice. True strike+ power attack with a bastard sword, or shield cantrip+aggressive block feat looks fun.

But what about barbarian? It seems very few spells have concentrate tag so I'm not sure what the downside is there with the rage action.

Finally was looking at ranger, or even alchemist but those seem like weaker options.

I suspect I might be overlooking something with this approach. Thoughts on dedications? Is having low CHR a bad idea?


Honestly, the Bard class as it is is one of the worst to play a gish. You have an excellent third action thanks to composition. There is nothing in the Bard class to help being a gish. And the light armor proficiency means you need a lot of Dexterity if you don't want to have low AC.
With low Charisma, you'll lose most of the nicest spells from your spell list, like Synesthesia which is absolute bliss.

I don't think you'll ever get anywhere close to efficient. Gishes are extremely hard to build, and you choose one of the worst chassis.

Also, any spell with Verbal component has the concentrate tag. So, you won't cast while raging.


All spells that have verbal components also have the concentrate tag, which means you can't cast most spells while raging under normal circumstances.


If you're not a fan of later bard feats, picking up a caster dedication for even more spells might be kinda neat.


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Bards are well suited to be gishs because they get good weapon and armor proficiencies in class.

Personally I think the martial multiclass dedications are wastes of feats (except rogue).

I'd stick with they long sword.

As a human you can get shield block and medium armor (retrain away at level 10 when Dex boosts make light just as good). They use your level 2 feat for lastwall sentry which gets you quick shield block.

Probably best to stick with 18 cha, but support spells will still work well without it.

Support spells are mostly bad (except for a few like heroism). I'd load up on out of combat spells. Mostly attack and inspire courage, soothe if necessary, in combat.


Maybe a more unusual take, but might I suggest maybe making a Hellknight Bard? If you start as a human, you can use Versatile Heritage and the General Training feat to get heavy armor proficiency at level 1 that's a requirement for becoming an Armiger, and later feats in the Hellknight and Hellknight Signifier archetypes let you become an expert with it.


Yes, Bard has good versatility for PFS, even without being a Face.
Yet with mediocre Charisma, Diplomacy remains worthwhile so at least somebody is trained (unless you play with a regular group that has somebody.)

I'm unsure what you're calling a gish.
A low Cha makes offensive casting rough and PF2 is light on the buffs, and you will never rival an actual martial in melee so reset any expectations from PF1. Your full-casting is expensive!

That said, a standard battle Bard would dip Champion for the armor which frees up some stats since you can get by on 10 Dex (though unfortunately you need at least 14 Cha). Your class already has good weapons & you can add shield block for defense (as well as Shield so you have two+ good blocks).
Your offense will be about equivalent to the 2nd Strike of a martial, but your compositions will be aiding them at the same time. With a medium to high Cha, you could do some offensive magic too, but it may be too iffy.
And your h.p. will be poor (as far as melee people go).
It'll be rough going, but you could have fun.

Or you could dump Cha, get to 16 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con!, & blah, blah, blah.
Have Magic Missile as a Signature Spell for bosses (since your primary Strikes are still a bit secondary and won't do well vs. them). You could get lots of utility + Soothe for excellent support and a few buffs (namely Heroism) to make all your allies happy. Keep focusing on getting your h.p. up.
If you want to MCD Barbarian, take Furious Focus so you can end your Rage at will. One trick is True Strike/Rage/Furious Focus which makes you fatigued, but is a good splash of damage. You might also look at True Strike/Swipe (since it's one Strike roll vs. two enemies).
Standard round might be Composition/Strike/Shield, perhaps after a buff to start the battle before enemies close
Bosses would be Magic Missile or maybe a Composition/Slow (even if you expect them to save, the loss of one action for a final boss is important.

The trouble is, that's a lot of investment for modest returns. Bards really are primarily casters now and 8 h.p./die makes melee life tough.
A good Dex + 18 Cha + a shortbow comes fairly cheap and with less risk...at least until you end up in that random group without a frontliner!


I'd argue that Bards make the best gishes in PF2 when multiclassed with Rogue. Rogue nets you some important things, namely access to Dread Striker (which is great combined with Dirge of Doom) as well as action-economy enhancing feats like Skirmish Strike, allowing you to get more out of your actions. Combine this with buffs like Heroism from the Bard chassis, as well as using Lingering Performance to ensure that you won't have to use too many actions to sustain your performances, and you're good to go.


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The Champion dedication represents a classic "heroic leader" concept that happens to complement the Bard abilities remarkably well. The armor proficiency gains come at appropriate breakpoints given that Bard only gets to expert light proficiency at lvl 13. It's not necessary to deprioritize Cha when grabbing this dedication, since there are many ancestry/background combinations that can get Str 14/Cha 18 at lvl 1. However, if you don't want to be subject to armor check penalties and speed reduction during lvls 2-4, or if you prefer stronger melee attacks, then you might want a human ancestry. They are one of a few ancestries that can start with Str 16/Cha 18 or vice versa.

Beyond the armor proficiency you get access to most of the good stuff in the Champion catalogue. The reaction is a fantastic ability that doesn't interfere with your action economy as a Bard. If you don't mind spending an action to raise your shield every round then grabbing a shield divine ally and Shield Block as a general feat is a good way to mitigate low hp. If you happen to go deep into the dedication feat line then you can get a sizable hp boost from the resiliency feat.

All in all, a reasonable feat investment that will allow you to hold your own in melee.


Very helpful -- thanks everyone. Also the rules for somatic components say "You can use this component while holding something in your hand, but not if you are restrained or otherwise unable to gesture freely." So I should be good to go with casting spells even with shield and longsword.
That said, is there an advantage to raising a shield and getting shield block feat versus just using the shield cantrip?


GeneralSleen wrote:

Very helpful -- thanks everyone. Also the rules for somatic components say "You can use this component while holding something in your hand, but not if you are restrained or otherwise unable to gesture freely." So I should be good to go with casting spells even with shield and longsword.

That said, is there an advantage to raising a shield and getting shield block feat versus just using the shield cantrip?

The shield cantrip is not bad, but it only provides +1 AC compared to +2 AC with a regular shield. Once you use the shield cantrip to activate Shield Block you won't be able to cast it again for another 10 minutes. It is essentially a broken shield after the first block. If you were to use a regular, weak shield then it will also break after the first hit at higher levels, and its hardness will be much lower than that of a shield cantrip. However, if you want to use Shield Block you should be investing in a Sturdy Shield of the appropriate level. This shield, combined with the Divine Ally feat from the Champion Archetype, will basically have the same hardness as the shield cantrip with the ability to take multiple hits.


Everybody can raise a shield, not everyone can block

that said, if the cantrip blocks one attack its done for 10 minutes (so, till your next fight)

also the cantrip gives +1, physical shields can give +2 (and be further enhances with other abilities)

so the cantrip might be an okay backup when you run out of actual shield (or a first line if you have to react spontaneously) but if you want to go into melee you should get a physical one


Bard can gish right out of the box, tbh. They have pretty good weapon options, inspire courage definitely helps with weapon attacks, and you even have light armor.

Honestly, you don't really get much out of multiclassing unless you want something like sudden charge. Champion is actually your true best option for a melee bard; your AC will only be about 4 lower than the best AC in the game, which is nothing to sneeze at.

That said, I would definitely not dump your casting stat. In pathfinder 2e, base caster gishes are about 3 to 5 lower on their attack bonuses than fighters, based on what level your party's at. This isn't to say they are bad, but the caster gish mostly uses weapon attacks to fill open actions after casting spells, rather than depending on it to be their main combat thing. If you want to be the "I use spells to boost my swordplay" style gish, you want to be a primary martial, MC caster

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