Flanking Question (House-Rule?)

[ClanPsi]

A creature is flat-footed (taking a –2 circumstance penalty to AC) to creatures that are flanking it.

Flanking is no longer a buff you get, but rather now results in the flat-footed debuff condition that the flanked creature receives. If it's now a condition, why does it only apply to some attackers? It's the only condition that is selective like that and kind of breaks Paizo's own rules. If a creature is flanked and has the flat-footed condition, that condition should apply across the board. Thoughts?

[Darkfox]

ClanPsi wrote:

A creature is flat-footed (taking a –2 circumstance penalty to AC) to creatures that are flanking it.

Flanking is no longer a buff you get, but rather now results in the flat-footed debuff condition that the flanked creature receives. If it's now a condition, why does it only apply to some attackers? It's the only condition that is selective like that and kind of breaks Paizo's own rules. If a creature is flanked and has the flat-footed condition, that condition should apply across the board. Thoughts?

The idea of being "flat footed toward specific creatures" isn't new in Pathfinder 2nd edition. In D&D 3.5, grappling created scenarios where creatures involved in the grapple were flat footed to those outside the grapple, but not to each-other. Flat footed has always been a little weird like that.

I don't think it's too big of a problem, though I agree that the shift in focus to a penalty to AC instead of a bonus to attack takes a little getting used to (in the case of flanking).

[Goldryno]

I have always interpreted this as being flatfooted to someone rather than being flatfooted to the world.

By focusing on one of the opponents flanking you are putting another opponent entirely in your blind spot and thus you receive that circumstantial penalty.

I would say Flanking itself is neither a debuff or a buff. Instead I think of it as there are rules that dictate when something is flanked, and these rules are not dependent on a specific skill/class or ability but rather their positioning and ability to be a threat. There is no save. If the conditions are filled an enemy is automatically flatfooted to the creatures who managed to flank it.

Remember that while we're not moving models or tokens in between turns in the narrative that enemy isn't staying perfectly still and looking in one direction. Only constant threat(s) to the blind spot presents more of a combat disadvantage than normal.

I would argue against changes to flanking because the way they make it work seems especially deliberate and specific. It's always the GMs right to house rule but the fact that they are clear in how they want it to work is why I'd hesitate to implement one here.

If I were to do so I would make sure it worked both ways, if the whole party is going to reap the benefits of two people flanking then I would make sure that applies to every enemy on the map when they flank one of the players.

[Ediwir]

Circumstance penalties are almost always conditional. Note how all the other conditions that apply regardless give status bonuses ;)
That way, you have a penalty that stacks with others - but only if conditions are met, and conditions mean you have to be there to take advantage of it.

[SuperBidi]

ClanPsi wrote:

A creature is flat-footed (taking a –2 circumstance penalty to AC) to creatures that are flanking it.

Flanking is no longer a buff you get, but rather now results in the flat-footed debuff condition that the flanked creature receives. If it's now a condition, why does it only apply to some attackers? It's the only condition that is selective like that and kind of breaks Paizo's own rules. If a creature is flanked and has the flat-footed condition, that condition should apply across the board. Thoughts?

If you are hidden/invisible, enemies are flat-footed to you only.

If you feint an enemy, it is flat-footed to your next attack only.
If you have the Dread Striker or Grim Insight feats, enemies are flat-footed to you only.

It's far from unique. And these effects are important, as being invisible can't give you a bonus against everyone or give a penalty to all enemies as some enemies will see you and others won't.

[tivadar27]

It's not unique, but it's also not ubiquitous for flat-footed. There are effects that simply make an enemy flat-footed to everybody. Beyond this, I think it's the only condition in the game that's relative to a specific individual (am I correct in this?). There's issues with making it a global condition, in that what SuperBidi mentioned would them become a bit overpowered and you'd need to rule on them, but I'd agree it's also odd that it seems to be the only penalty that's specific like this.

[Salamileg]

All of the attitude conditions (hostile, friendly, etc.) only apply to specific creatures.

The Blind-Fight feat makes certain undetected creatures hidden instead to you only.

Creatures with darkvision treat creatures within a 4th level darkness as concealed, while other creatures treat them as hidden (unless they have greater darkvision).

[KutuluKultist]

Since if A and B are flanking you, at any one time one of them is behind you and the other in front of you. So if the narrative for flanking was focused attention, that woukld not justify the person in front of you receiving the advantage from flanking.

So, I would prefer it if flanking just counted against all enemies once you are flanked at all.

[Kennethray]

There are also feats and abilities that that effect flanking, like the one that denies flatfooted to flanking foes that are lower level, but not to their higher level flanking buddy. Also the ganag up feat that allows rogues to not have to be straight across from their flanking buddies. Flatfooted is super easy to get in most situations though, just about positioning not about saves.