Did you get a chance to look at any of the ones you didn't list (especially the ones you didn't list between Rise of the Runelords and Skull & Shackles)?
I haven't. I've heard excellent things about Reign of Winter, but my players aren't interested in time travel. Ditto Iron Gods and sci fi in their fantasy. The ones that have good reputations are in genres my players aren't interested in.
OK, I thought I was done complaining here, but really?
====
"The palace has since repaired this rift, keeping the chambers flooded even though they now lie above sea level... There is no
source of air in these drowned depths..."
"[BBEG] assumes human form and seeks out the PCs long after they enter this level of the palace."
====
So, "Hi, PCs! I know we're in an underwater area and I have no visible means of breathing nor of communicating with you, but pay no attention to that and assume I'm just a human who can breathe and speak underwater and who is immune to cold!"
(And yes, there's even an "if the PCs move upstairs" clause, so this encounter is indeed intended to take place underwater.)
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Did you get a chance to look at any of the ones you didn't list (especially the ones you didn't list between Rise of the Runelords and Skull & Shackles)?I haven't. I've heard excellent things about Reign of Winter, but my players aren't interested in time travel. Ditto Iron Gods and sci fi in their fantasy. The ones that have good reputations are in genres my players aren't interested in.
Reign of Winter doesn't have time travel, as far as I have been able to determine from following PbPs. Although given that . . .
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Session 48, Played 30-May-2021
(1) Given that the party has at least a scroll of Miracle (from the dragon's hoard), and quite possibly a Wish as well, having Part I of the book be a 3 1/4-page description of the events leading up to the festival, and Part II a 6 1/2-page series of events that are very likely to be bypassed, this really is a one-part book and that part is nothing but a dungeon crawl. Books 1-3 had social interactions, travel, exploration, and lots of other "goodies" that my players love. Books 4-6 are dungeon crawls and pretty much nothing else (Windsong Abbey, Guiltspur, and the Island of Xin). Building a dungeon crawl is ludicrously easy. I shouldn't have to buy APs to build them. I'd like the AP to introduce interesting NPCs, juicy plot points, or fantastic travel. Not, "You're there. Get in the dungeon."
(2) I misliked the whole, "even if the PCs save the city from the tsunami, you should still run Events 4 and 5." Why? Because Event 1 (the shriezyx) is supposed to be automatic. Events 2 and 3 are zero XP, zero encounter descriptors. Events 4 and 5 are combat encounters with sea creatures that get washed into Magnimar... except the PCs just used up a Miracle to stop exactly this sort of thing from happening.
It translates to, "Let the PCs use a miracle or wish to stop all the offscreen stuff, but force them to do all the fights anyway."
As GothBard said after the session, "Yeah, we'd've been really upset with you if you'd done that to us."
Which explains the short session.
The party had a month of down time in Magnimar, and spent most of their time doing their own things:
- Percy copied many, many spells from the spellbooks of the various high-level wizards in Magnimar
- Kyllia helped her parents in their shop, which suddenly couldn't keep up with demand thanks to her newfound fame
- Galyn thoroughly enjoyed exploring Magnimar with his newfound ladyfriends from the Shucked Oyster (a new pair every day), and they enjoyed the massive free advertising he was giving the establishment
- The Red Sash returned to the Serpent's Run for several celebrity appearances, and convinced Galyn to join him a couple of times for performances in front of sellout crowds.
The night before the Reforging Festival, Lady Heidmarch called together the Sihedron Council for what she thought would be the formality of describing the day's events. Unfortunately, on learning that she intended to let the party keep the Sihedron, the Pathfinder representatives from Absalom raised quite the complaint, as did Mayor Groboras and the representatives of Magnimar. Fortunately, Kyllia reassured the Pathfinders and reminded Mayor Groboras that the Sihedron would likely attract all manner of dangerous attackers no matter where it was stored, so the Lady Heidmarch's plan stood.
The Reforging Festival itself went off without a hitch: Mayor Groboras made an appalling speech wherein he managed to mispronounce all the party members' names, then took credit for financing and steering the entire endeavor, at which point Percy and Kyllia both stood up to thank the mythical second group of adventurers for their fine work. The crowd laughed and clapped approvingly. Finally, the seven appointed casters stepped forward and started the ritual while the party stood guard in case of unforeseen events. The Sihedron was reforged successfully, but as Kyllia went to join the Lady Heidmarch and claim the Sihedron, the entire Irespan started vibrating.
As the shaking became worse, people started to panic. The thousands and thousands of people upon the Irespan were likely to trample each other, or, even worse, fall off the Irespan entirely. The Red Sash and Percy saw black clouds far, far to the west, and deduced that the earthquake had happened many, many miles away out in the open ocean, meaning a tsunami was coming. Sending the people down would see them drowned. Keeping them on the Irespan would see them trampled. Percy suggested, "Seems about time to use that Wish."
Kyllia agreed. Drawing the Luck Blade, she wished for all the people to make it safely off of the Irespan. When the shriezyx burst forth, it was an obvious threat to the fulfillment of this wish so Brandi was whisked from her temple (where she was still trying to redeem Ardathanatus) and deposited squarely in front of the shriezyx, fully armed, armored, and ready to do battle. The shriezyx was no longer a threat to the people on the Irespan.
Percy then Dimension Doored Kyllia to the Mistress of Angels monument. While no one knew for sure what angel Ordellia Whilwren saw when she decided to abandon Varisian holy grounds, most scholars agreed that at least an empyreal lord protected Magnimar (possibly Soralyon), if not Desna herself, and it was the perfect place to request a Miracle of this deity.
The Miracle was granted, and a Force Wall appeared all along Magnimar's coast as the tsunami washed in. Many clockwork constructs were dashed against the wall, but in the end, after a Wish and a Miracle, all of Magnimar was saved, without so much as a child stubbing their toe.
As the city calmed down, celebrating their salvation, the party met again with the Lady Heidmarch. Toth Bhreacher, master of the Golemworks, identified the clockwork constructs as those belonging to none other than Emperor Xin himself. If the reports that some had been moving before being dashed against the Force Wall were to be believed, it meant that reassembling the Sihedron had resulted in awakening the island of Xin itself!
Wearily, the Lady Heidmarch asked the party to put themselves at risk once more, to travel to the island of Xin, and put that threat to Magnimar to an end once and for all.
The party didn't hesitate for a moment. "Sure, we'll do it!"
The party leveled up to 16, for doing very, very little but spending very, very much.
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I like how you handled it.
So, asking about APs you enjoyed... what was your thoughts about Hell's Rebels? I mean, there are some problems, but one aspect I genuinely like about the AP is that it allows for non-combat solutions of problems all the way up toward the end of the AP (including in Book 6). Mind you, my group is currently halfway through Book 2 so I'm not sure of ALL the problems... but it's proving fun so far.
Also, Reign of Winter most decidedly doesn't include time travel. But it does involve traveling to other worlds. My personal opinion is that the incentive for the PCs to save the world really depends too much on the players wanting to save the world rather than giving their characters incentives to save Heldren (the town where they start the AP) but fortunately my group chose to be heroes.
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I like how you handled it.
So, asking about APs you enjoyed... what was your thoughts about Hell's Rebels? I mean, there are some problems, but one aspect I genuinely like about the AP is that it allows for non-combat solutions of problems all the way up toward the end of the AP (including in Book 6). Mind you, my group is currently halfway through Book 2 so I'm not sure of ALL the problems... but it's proving fun so far.
Also, Reign of Winter most decidedly doesn't include time travel. But it does involve traveling to other worlds. My personal opinion is that the incentive for the PCs to save the world really depends too much on the players wanting to save the world rather than giving their characters incentives to save Heldren (the town where they start the AP) but fortunately my group chose to be heroes.
Any of the ones I didn't list we haven't played, nor have I perused, so I can't proffer an opinion on Hell's Rebels.
Reign of Winter is supposed to be "one of the best" APs, but my players haven't been interested. And after Shattered Star, it looks like there will be a multi-year hiatus on playing anything from Paizo.
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Speaking of "mistakes were made", remember how in Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne there were lots of NPCs who pretended to be the PCs' friends, and some of them betrayed the PCs and some of them were staunch allies?
Wouldn't it be nice to see another AP like that, where it wasn't immediately obvious to the PCs who's an ally and who's an enemy?
I'm muttering about it because there's yet another NPC in Book 6 where the PCs will have no difficulty whatsoever working out her motivations. Shattered Star *did* try to provide both friendly and unfriendly NPCs, so I'll give them credit for that, but when the party knows before I even start talking whether the NPC is a true ally or a betrayer, there's an issue with where they appear and how they're drawn...
"I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way."
EDIT: Seriously. They need to avoid telling the artists anything about the personalities of the NPCs they're drawing. Because throughout Shattered Star it's been, "Show us the picture of the NPC! Oh! Look at her! She's evil! She's going to betray us! Oh, and he's OK!"
You can literally determine good vs. evil from the artwork and the players know it.
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You have GOT to have this NPC say "I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way" to the PCs . . . .
And a Shriezyx or even a Shriezyx Queen sounds like no more than a speed bump at this level (even a pack of determined Commoners could probably take out the former, especially if they knew of the vulnerability to fire).
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You have GOT to have this NPC say "I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way" to the PCs . . . .
And a Shriezyx or even a Shriezyx Queen sounds like no more than a speed bump at this level (even a pack of determined Commoners could probably take out the former, especially if they knew of the vulnerability to fire).
The author upped the CR...
...by adding a bunch of hit dice.So yeah, it was technically CR 16, but not in any reasonable sense.
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Seeing as to how this has become more of an, "Advice on how NOT to GM" tirade than an actual campaign journal, Part 3 of Book 6 brings up another "bad" GM'ing practice: Virtually every single room in the entire palace has a CR.
There are 34 rooms in the palace, plus the outside for 35 total areas. All 35 are labeled. 33 of the 35 have CRs. It reminds me of my "bad" old GM'ing days where I'd first draw a map of a dungeon, and then I'd put a fight in every single room because empty rooms somehow aren't allowed.
Yet if every single room is a fight, and the players know that every single room is a fight, the dungeon becomes tedious for everyone involved except those players and GMs who prefer Pathfinder as a tactical board game rather than a roleplaying game. Assuming 20-30 minutes per encounter, I might run 8 encounters per session for 4 1/2 sessions. No roleplay; no exploration; no boring old NPCs. Just fight after fight after fight after fight for over a month.
I understand that there is a subset of Pathfinder players who would love this style. I personally have never met nor gamed with any, so I'll put out that:
(1) Just because you put a room in a dungeon doesn't mean you have to put something in it. Empty rooms are OK.
(2) Just because you decide to put something in a room doesn't mean it has to be a fight. Storytelling rooms are OK.
EDIT: It's much like my impression of "new Scarwall" vs. "old Scarwall". Old Scarwall was all about the exploration. Most of the rooms were empty. As a GM, I could put in haunting, spooky things that had no effect on gameplay. The introduction to Scarwall even provided me with a list of possible things to put in so I didn't need a particularly robust imagination to run it well. New Scarwall had a fight in virtually every single room, so the exploration and haunting aspects were essentially gone; the players' approach was, "Here's the next door. Everyone buff up. The wizard casts Open and we all have declared actions to kill whatever we see."
And it worked well for them, but all of them found it monotonous.
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Oooh -- I have some free time this afternoon so I'm wrapping up prep for Book 6.
I think the party will be hard-pressed not to quit the AP once they hit the Skymetal Vaults.
"You have no choice but to teleport through the vaults in order. There is no other way to finish the AP. Each vault has a fight waiting for you. The first and fifth vaults spam area effect disables. The fourth vault has multiple ability drains. There are no NPCs, no roleplay, nor any decision-making. You will just teleport and fight. Teleport and fight. Teleport and fight. Have 'fun'!"
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Session 49, Played 13-Jun-2021
And I'm sure that at some point with their mind control and illusions, aboleths were one of the most terrifying creatures in all of D&Ddom. But the blanket statement that Protection from Evil prevents all forms of mind control and the "nerfing" of illusions to be exactly that and nothing more (e.g., illusions no longer do damage if you fail your save against them) has rendered an aboleth a rather squishy, pathetic creature unworthy of its CR. I'm always sad when I have to run an aboleth, because I go over the environment I'm given, the abilities they have, and the PCs' standard protections, and I think, "OK. This is going to be pathetic. Again..."
Side note aside, what enraged Shiro was the Spirit of Xin. "Oh, I'm an indestructible ghost that can flit from construct to construct without a movement speed and then hit you with 9th-level spells."
He was pissed that Xin's spirit was just "written that way" so the party just has to suck up all the damage he deals out, survive, and get to his reliquary.
Not his favorite thing.
The party spent the night in Magnimar. Kyllia was approached by Nireed Wadincoast, proprietor and inhabitant of Magnimar's famous Aquaretum. He was hoping she could bring back an aquatic clockwork dragon from the Island of Xin, or at least its head. Thinking fondly of the lunacy that was the Aquaretum, Kyllia agreed.
In the morning, Percy summoned Phantom Steeds for the party and they rode out in the direction that the Red Sash had seen the clouds. Red Sash's unerring sense of direction brought them to the Island of Xin within a couple of hours, so Percy Teleported them home and spent the day exploring the Aquaretum. He approved.
The next morning Percy Greater Teleported them back to the island, 60' from the obvious front door of the giant black crystal palace that was the most prominent feature of the island (honestly, it was the only feature). As they approached the door, three apparent gillmen arose from a channel about 100 feet away and asked to approach. The party let them approach, but remained suspicious. Unfortunately, the Red Sash and Percy easily spotted the eyestalks of the aboleths lurking under the water and controlling their Projected Images.
Percy Dimension Doored the party on top of the aboleths, their Dominate Monsters all failed to pierce the Magic Circles against Evil on all the party members, and it was an obvious wipe. I tried to have them flee, but there in the morale block is the dreaded, "They fight to the death."
So they came back up and got killed. The only entertainment was Percy summoning four dire sharks to help eat them. Otherwise it was a non-fight.
Once the aboleths were dead and looted, Percy examined the door to the crystal structure.
Just to increase the forced suspension of disbelief, the Red Sash spotted the crystal slivers trap on the door. Of all the "traps that aren't traps" in the AP, this was the *one* trap that didn't seem so much like a trap because it was being triggered by a conscious entity. But for once it had a Disable DC and the Red Sash easily disabled it. While he was at it, on a whim, he asked for the Sihedron to get his +8 to all skills, used his investigator's Inspiration ability, and managed a Disable Device roll of 52. Opening the sealed, "all the crystal is melded together into a solid wall imbued with a Wall of Force," with a shrug of the shoulders and an, "I can't even imagine how to describe how you just did that."
In the entryway, they spotted three runes, and Percy quickly identified them as axiomites, beings of absolute order. The party stepped in to speak to them and they coalesced into three attractive women who spoke with one voice (alternating between the women) and referring to themselves as "I". A loooooooong conversation ensued. The party had no desire to harm the axiomite(s), but the axiomite(s) had no intention of letting them into the palace until they were summoned by Emperor Xin. The party finally hit upon the idea of convincing them that their duty was to the living Emperor Xin and not his ghost, then pointed out that they hadn't received any useful research from him in over 10,000 years. Percy offered them newer, better research, and the Red Sash recited the history of Golarion since Thassilon had fallen. Kyllia wove this into a logical argument as to why they were no longer duty-bound to prevent the party from entering. The axiomites accepted that whether or not their argument was true, they were either letting the party in to see a dead Emperor Xin (not their business) or Emperor Xin would deal with them himself. Percy thanked them and provided them with some arcane knowledge that had not been known 10,000 years ago. They thanked him for his consideration, but reminded him that what he was providing was a gift, not renumeration for letting the party in. He was fine with that. But they offered to leave the doors open so the party could flee if they needed to.
The very next room was the throne room, with Emperor Xin himself sitting on a throne flanked by two dozen clockwork soldiers. Considering the ceiling was two hundred feet above them, they decided to approach the throne from the air. Emperor Xin snapped at them to land immediately and approach the throne like normal petitioners. The Red Sash noticed that Emperor Xin looked mortally wounded. Emperor Xin called him impertinent and demanded that all four party members swear fealty to him before he would listen to anything else they had to say. Kyllia and Galyn, both being inherently chaotic, had no issue bending the knee and swearing fealty to him. He was pleased. Percy swore fealty. He didn't happen to mention to whom, but Emperor Xin missed that little bit. The Red Sash hemmed and hawed and avoided answering the question long enough that Emperor Xin lost patience and the party entered combat.
The clockwork soldiers were as useless as you'd expect clockwork soldiers to be against 16th-level PCs, so I think in the entire combat I hit Percy twice and the Red Sash three times. Plus pits. The clockwork soldiers all ended up in pits very quickly.
The *HUGE* sticking point was the Xin-haunted soldier. He hit the Red Sash with Finger of Death, so Percy dropped him into a pit. He spent a round transferring to another construct, traveling around 180 feet in the process. Shiro cried foul. But then dropped the next haunted soldier into a pit. And the pits ate the clockwork soldiers and the fight was over.
The group was in a foul mood, and they were only two rooms in....
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{. . .} Unfortunately, the Red Sash and Percy easily spotted the eyestalks of the aboleths lurking under the water and controlling their Projected Images.
{. . .}
That reminds me of that Far Side cartoon in which the sharks suddenly realize that swimmers have been spotting them because their dorsal fins were sticking out.
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Session 50, Played 27-Jun-2021
Personally, my irritation always surrounds Perception checks. The shining children were all using spell-like abilities when the Red Sash listened at the door. "Hear the details of a whispered conversation" is DC 15 and they're clearly quieter than that, and even, "Hear a bow being drawn" is louder than them at DC 25. But even taking the door and the distance into account the Red Sash beat a DC 35. Is this enough to detect a silent, flying creature? It would be awesome to have a simple, "Hear the sound of a creature breathing" check. Some posters posit that it should match Invisibility's DC of 40, but if you're invisible and you move it's down to 20, and these creatures were vigorously casting/using spell-like abilities. A simple, "Hear someone breathing" benchmark would work wonders.
What truly surprised me was their acceptance of Aulthunn. She showed up, told them her cock-and-bull story, but her every question convinced them that whatever else she was, she was Lawful, so if she swore she wasn't going to do something, she wouldn't. And that was enough for them to let her join the party. More proof that they're not yet another, "Kick down the doors and kill everything that moves," group, but that they'd rather actually interact with the world. Too bad the AP gives them SO little chance to do so.
Without a better plan, the group decided to start in on the northern door and work their way around the throne room. Listening intently, the Red Sash could tell the party that there were three creatures within who were gesticulating wildly high up in the room. Dancing? Spellcasting? Who knew? The party arranged itself and Percy cast Open on the door.
Three shining children were casting near the ceiling of the massive banquet hall. While no one in the party could identify what they were, Percy could tell that one of them was putting up a Veil to hide the ceiling, and the other two were putting up Symbols of Insanity. The fight went extremely poorly. The Red Sash ran in and was immediately blinded and blasted, and Kyllia and Percy were blinded as well. Considering this inauspicious beginning, Percy used the Getaway he'd prepared to return the party outside of the palace to take them on there. He put a Wall of Ice in front of the entrance while Kyllia Healed everyone to restore their sight. After a few moments, one of the axiomites of Xin used her crystalline form to demand that Percy remove the wall immediately. After a few moments, they learned that the shining children were still bound to the banquet hall and couldn't leave, so the fight would not occur outside.
Given that, the Red Sash and Galyn smashed down the wall to free the entrance (the axiomite thanked them) and they went back in.
Round 2 was painful, but not as painful as Round 1. Percy put in his Solid Fog to let the fighters get in, and in spite of Galyn saving against all three blinding effects one of the shining children Dispelled his flight so he was ground-bound and had to run back to Percy to get flying again. Unfortunately for the shining children, Resist Energy: Fire rendered their attacks nearly harmless, so in spite of being able to teleport about and dispel buffs, they couldn't get down to the energy resistance and ended up slowly perishing. During the fight, the black crystal square in the throne room transformed into a staircase going down. Oddly enough, the staircase was flooded. Even more oddly, a dripping-wet woman came up the staircase and spoke in a language that sounded similar to Thassilonian, but was dissimilar enough that only Kyllia and her Tongues could understand her. Her first statement was, "I mean no harm."
Percy told Kyllia to tell her that if she tried to help in the fight at all, he'd kill her. Kyllia provided a far more polite translation. As the fight wore on, she kept raising her hands as if to cast and Percy would snap at her. Once the shining children were finally defeated and those who had been blinded again (the Red Sash in particular) were un-blinded, they spoke with the woman. She was Aulthunn, an Azlanti diplomat who'd been sent to make offerings of peace between Azlant and Thassilon, but who'd somehow offended Emperor Xin and had been placed in stasis as punishment. She'd awoken underwater, used a scroll of Water Breathing to survive, and come up to find the fight.
Percy immediately started examining her with Detect Magic, so she admitted that she was a shapeshifter and had actually been awake since the island had risen from the sea, and had been investigating the areas of the palace below the water, as she felt the upper reaches were far too dangerous for a lone sorceress to explore. She was interested in retrieving a few artifacts (the crystal that grew the palace in particular), and would appreciate the party's help. In return, she'd do what she could to help them. The party saw no issues with this, especially with her wording, which convinced them that they were dealing with a Lawful shapeshifter. Probably Lawful Evil, but Lawful nonetheless, and she promised that she had no interest in robbing the PCs so they let her tag along.
Crossing the throne room, the party opened a door to a vast set of archives. Percy used Detect Magic to detect two scrolls (Limited Wish and Summon Monster IX), a tome of living runes, and an artifact known as a flamma horicalcum. There was also a spider-legged table with a crystal with a trapped soul in it. The Red Sash went in to investigate the crystal, the table came alive and threw the crystal at him, shattering it and releasing a thulgant qlippoth, and the fight was on.
And it wasn't much of a fight. More of a, "Wow! Could the authors have found ANY creature more annoying than this one?" moment. It hit with its stingers with some regularity, causing all sorts of ability drain, but the hit point damage wasn't enough to bother anyone, and it was soon beaten to death. The only thing the fight demonstrated was that Aulthunn was indeed very, very lawful, because nothing she did affected the qlippoth at all, and she ended up spending a Chain Lightning and a Magic Missile to kill the table.
After looting the room, the party decided to teleport back to Magnimar. Aulthunn immediately produced a handful of honest-to-goodness Azlanti coins in perfect condition and asked how much they were worth, and Percy surprised the entire table by giving her a fair price for one (750 gold pieces), giving her plenty of money for a night in Magnimar. After eliciting a ridiculous promise from Aulthunn (Percy got her to promise not to do anything that hei would consider evil, even though she'd only known him for about 4 minutes), he teleported them all to Magnimar and introduced Aulthunn to Leis Nivlandis at the Stone of Seers. She eagerly settled down in the stacks, but the party noticed that in the evening she returned to the inn where they told her they'd be staying and slept for a solid 8 hours.
Whatever Lawful Evil monstrosity she was, she wasn't an outsider...
I have to say, thank you so much for playing this monstrosity of an AP. I now know not to ever run it. And I hope that Paizo is reading this thread carefully to learn what NOT to do in the future. *sigh*
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I have to say, thank you so much for playing this monstrosity of an AP. I now know not to ever run it. And I hope that Paizo is reading this thread carefully to learn what NOT to do in the future. *sigh*
Yep.
(1) Area effect disables are NOT fun and should be used extremely rarely, if at all.(2) Disabling "standard" player abilities such as teleportation and flight should never be done. Figure out something else.
(3) If it's a static hazard that causes harm to the PCs, it's a trap. Don't play rules lawyering games just to avoid giving a chance to the PC who's dedicated dozens of skill points to being the "trap monkey".
(4) Not every room has to be a straight-up, "The monsters attack on sight and fight to the death," situation. In fact, that's a very boring way to run a dungeon.
I have to say, thank you so much for playing this monstrosity of an AP. I now know not to ever run it. And I hope that Paizo is reading this thread carefully to learn what NOT to do in the future. *sigh*Yep.
(1) Area effect disables are NOT fun and should be used extremely rarely, if at all.
{. . .}
I wonder if that's why 2nd Edition doesn't have Dazing Spell?
I have to say, thank you so much for playing this monstrosity of an AP. I now know not to ever run it. And I hope that Paizo is reading this thread carefully to learn what NOT to do in the future. *sigh*TBH, I've never had any interest in playing Shattered Star, specifically BECAUSE it was always 'sold' as the Dungeon Crawl AP. Dungeon crawling doesn't have to be inherently terrible - certainly there's no need for the more abusive stuff like the endless Not Actually Traps - but if it's your primary selling point that does historically imply groups who want to do more than "kick in the door, kill the monsters, repeat" may not be the top priority.
Honestly, NobodysHome - given that you seem to know your group's preferences pretty well, I'm curious why you even decided to run this?
Simply put, your post is the first time I've heard SS called a "dungeon crawl" AP. All I've ever heard is that it was the "continuation" of RotRL and Jade Regent. RotRL was great, Jade Regent was playable, so we thought we'd try it...
EDIT: The official blurb mentions dungeons, but certainly doesn't make it sound like an "all dungeon crawl" adventure.
Huh. I remember getting that distinct impression when it originally came out - to the point where I felt rather disappointed that the first full-fledged 'sequel' to RotRL was focused on what I consider the least interesting part of the game - and I also have the impression that it was fairly common knowledge, but off the top of my head I can't immediately think of a specific source for that knowledge.
I'm sure someone played through it and posted it somewhere, and buzz got around, but I don't Facebook nor Twitter, so my sole sources of information are the blurbs and the Paizo boards. The first book's intro certainly didn't start off with, "Welcome to dungeon crawl land!", and while it says that, "Most of this AP will be spent exploring AN enormous dungeon", it mentions that it will provide a large number of side quests to avoid being stuck dungeon crawling for an entire AP.
Er, nope. It wasn't ONE enormous dungeon, and the side quests were of the, "While you're in the dungeon, pick this up for me," variety. A side quest to relieve the "overwhelming" feeling of being in a "massive" dungeon shouldn't take place in said dungeon.
EDIT: I mean, let's be honest: Most of RotRL was some form of dungeon-crawling. But there were enough side quests and non-dungeon parts that it was an epically-fun AP. And the original Skeletons of Scarwall was one of my favorite books to run. So I wasn't terrified of one monstrous dungeon with lots of side quests to get the PCs out of it on occasion. But instead I got half a dozen dungeons with virtually no quests outside of them.
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Thinking about it for a while, I think the issue is that we don't mind dungeon crawls, as long as they're well-done. As I mentioned, I loved Scarwall. The Runeforge wasn't particularly bad. The Whispering Fortress in Jade Regent (or whatever it was called) was one of my favorite sections. In Trig's (in)famous journal the Tower of Corruption was one of the most memorable segments.
What did all of those have in common?
- Interesting dungeon residents who did not "attack the party on sight and fight to the death"
- An underlying history of the dungeon that made it interesting to explore
- Lots of EMPTY rooms that still told some of the history
The Crystal Palace of Xin is a fantastic example of what goes wrong: The author creates a really fantastic structure with an amazing history. He even provides a magic item so you can watch that history play out in real time...
...except...
...EVERY ROOM IN THE PALACE HAS A CR RATING.
If the players know that every single room is a fight, they're not going to care about the history or the nuances, nor are they going to spend any time trying to put the story together. Their entire mindset will be, "Killed that. What's next?"
And that's the approach my players don't enjoy.
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- Interesting dungeon residents who did not "attack the party on sight and fight to the death"
- An underlying history of the dungeon that made it interesting to explore
- Lots of EMPTY rooms that still told some of the history
It seems to me that these three components do a good job of defining a dungeon. It's not just a location -- it's a mood.
And the succession of killboxes I've been reading about here break any sort of "mood" you can build . . . well, apart from "murderhobo mania".
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Thinking more about "Not Actually Traps" -- would it hurt anything if somebody with Trapfinding (usually Rogues, but can also be Investigators or Slayers) can also use this to detect trap-like hazards and even potential ambushes, if they have ranks in the appropriate skills? It's not as if Rogues are exactly overpowered . . . .
I'd be interested to know how Pathfinder 2nd Edition alleviates issues #1 (less AoE disables in 2nd Edition?) and #3.
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I've played a precision ranger from 1st to 8th, and an evoker wizard from 8th to 12th (and having helped map out a character for a fellow gamer's son, I now truly want to play a champion in this system!). We just finished the third book of the Extinction Curse AP this past Saturday. I may not know all the hoops through which one must jump in order to accomplish given goals, but I know the numbers of three of the other four party members better than they do.
If you want a system that demands that the classical archetypes be represented in your party, this is the system for you. Regardless of the difficulty rating of the encounters, every. single. fight. was a nail-biter from 1st to 8th. As soon as I dumped my ranger and brought in the wizard, though, the impact was obvious, and immediate.
If you want tense combats that can truly go either way depending upon how the dice fall, this is the system for you. Our party has cakewalked overwhelming encounters, and been nearly destroyed by encounters that should have been blindfolded curbstomps.
If you want player choices to have real consequences, this is the system for you. This is true of both tactical choices and build options. One of those easy-peasy fights that nearly obliterated us? --> simply the consequence of the wizard and cleric undercommitting to the fight (we were trying to hold out spells for what we expected to be a grueling dungeon crawl, which instead turned out to be a three-combat/one-puzzle snoozer). And as far as builds go? --> every version of the ranger is an absolute disappointment, especially where another party member has chosen to emphasize the same things: everyone else does it better, as a matter of course. Also: EVERY WIZARD MUST HAVE TELEKINETIC PROJECTILE AS A CANTRIP. No exceptions. Level-equivalent magic-immune golems simply cannot be disregarded.
But, anyway, back to the math . . . .
D&D 4E had four static defenses for every creature. Calculating attack bonuses was pretty easy. You spent your action(s), rolled the dice, and called the result -- no backflips required. The DM knew what you had to hit, and you knew your modifiers. Simple.
PF2, on the other hand, takes the theoretical advantages of bounded accuracy (because f!@$ math!) and turns it into a convoluted nightmare of figuring out where to add 10, when you're not supposed to add 10, figuring out whether your defense score is a base saving throw category or your "skill DC", determining if your trip attempt is modified by your regular weapon attack bonus or your Athletics bonus . . . . . .
Maybe I'm just a dummy, and don't want to work that much to play a game, but good grief -- you don't need complexity in order to make a good game. They could have made PF2 all player-facing and still kept the sliding scale of results (maybe) . . .
Sidebar: Oh, yeah!! Not only do you have to determine which bonus you need to roll with, or which modifier you need to modify by +10, but both the player and the GM have to keep in mind what the standard DC is for any effect, and be aware of the +10/-10 window, and still be on the lookout for natural rolls of 1 and 20 . . . .[/end sidebar]
And then!
Unholy flaming hell$#!ts, Batman! Of the two things they essentially lifted straight out of 4th edition, one they executed rather poorly (cantrips), and the other is far worse than that of the much-(unfairly)-hated 4th edition: the keywords.
Mein Gott in Himmel!! Flourish. Open. Manipulate. Interact. Press. Concentrate. Attack. Stance. Emotion. Mental. And on it goes . . . . And you need a blasted web diagram (not Web diagram) to check, double-check, and triple-check when and where these cursed keywords overlap sometimes but don't other times!!!
Sidebar II: Look -- I play Magic: the Gathering (or used to, anyway). Since I was in 7th or 8th grade, the rule has always been: reading the card explains the card. But this is resoundingly not the case in PF2. If you read the description of a new class feature you want to take, you've got to check it against every keyword under the heading of the entry -- which means checking the index for the location of the pages that keyword is briefly described, its "official" description in some part of the rules, and then you'll probably find a parenthetical reference in that section, which will then inform you that, no, the feat you want actually DOES NOT work with the other class feature you chose four levels ago, even though it reads like it should in the entry in Chapter 3.
So not only do you have to do math in two different directions at the same time for EVERY. ROLL. , and not only do you need to be able to cross-reference multiple keywords for nearly EVERY. ACTION. , but that rulebook is an absolute fustercluck, organizationally speaking. FOR. EVERYTHING.[/end sidebar]
Maybe they've made class-specific and/or GM-centric supplements that finally bring all these disparate elements into a convenient one-page foldout screen so that wizards can calculate their counteract checks and counteract levels, for example (NOT the same thing!!), but I'll be damned if I'm going to spend a single cent for any such thing, and I absolutely don't have the time to make my own in my time away from the game table.
CONCLUSION: Yep, the math works. Yes, the classes (usually) are fun to play and are effective in their specific milieu. And, yes, it is absolutely, fundamentally, wholly, and unfailingly, superior to D&D 5E in every way that matters.
But you've got to metagame the game through the lens of the mechanics you want your character to use before you can determine which bit of math you must employ for your attempted actions, and the rulebook isn't much help with the learning curve.
PF2 is the most aggravatingly elegant system I've seen, and absolutely the most infuriating.
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Session 51, Played 11-Jul-2021
The party had a hearty breakfast in Magnimar, with everyone seeing Galyn's gargantuan breakfast and saying, "I'll have what he's having," Aulthunn included. Kyllia had made sure everyone was healed of their damage and ability drain from the previous day, so they were all ready to set off when Percy pointed out the importance of one of them being able to use his scroll of Teleport in case he became disabled. Aulthunn pointed out that she could cast Teleport, but he insisted he wanted someone he could trust. She didn't take offense, and Kyllia reassured Percy that she'd be able to use it, so he had her carry it. As for the flamma horicalcum, Aulthunn offered to carry it, but the party decided to let Kyllia use it.
They Greater Teleported to the island, found the door re-sealed and re-trapped, and the Red Sash re-opened it. The Axiomites of Xin greeted the party and particularly Aulthunn, to whom they apologized that they could not find the master to bring her directly to him. In the throne room, the flamma horicalcum showed the throne room in all its glory, with magnificent tapestries and fawning courtesans presenting wondrous gifts to Xin. The party started clearing doors counterclockwise around the room.
The western door was a temple to Lissala, complete with floating pews, a magical robe, and two living runes. Needless to say, they turned themselves into Symbols of Fear and panicked Galyn, because being out of the fight is fun. Kyllia managed to cast Remove Fear on him before he got too far. The party closed the door, put up Resist Energy: Communal, and sent the blindfolded Red Sash to fetch the robe and the crown the statue had been wearing. Since he was protected from electricity and couldn't see, the living runes couldn't stop him. He had a small itch at the back of his head when he took the robe, but he ignored it.
Once outside, they evaluated the helmet to be mundane treasure and the robe to be a Robe of Powerlessness, which they proceeded to destroy.
The next room was a spellwell of transmutation magic. Aulthunn explained its workings, and that it would benefit Percy greatly. Percy immediately suspected a trap and asked the Red Sash to investigate, and once again the Red Sash spotted and disabled the trap. Percy used the spellwell and learned that he could learn every transformation spell if he wanted to. He didn't want to at the moment, but he definitely wanted to return. The flamma horicalcum showed Xin using the room in exactly the same way.
The final room was an audience chamber with several deformed pillars, and Kyllia (who had Deathwatch up) informed the party that two of the pillars contained dread wraiths who were watching them. She started off by putting Death Ward on Galyn, but that prompted the wraiths to attack. They managed to drain Kyllia and Percy before they fell, irritating Percy no end, but Kyllia used her wand of Restoration to remove the damage. Since there was no treasure in the room, they didn't enter.
With all exits exhausted, the party wondered what to do next. Aulthunn pointed out that the staircase in the floor extended both downwards and upwards, so they could explore the upper floors. There was a great deal of discussion before the party decided to go down. Since the party clearly still didn't trust her, Aulthunn admitted that she hadn't been in stasis for 11,000 years, but had been alerted when the castle rose out of the sea and had been there for only a few days, working under the water to try to control some of the constructs and creatures.
She revealed this because once they went down the stairs, they would encounter six extremely hungry siyokoys who she wouldn't be able to protect them from. The party declared, "No problem!"
Indeed, once the stairs extended downwards and the party was submerged, Aulthunn called out in Aquan, "Please do not attack these intruders, as they are too powerful and you will be killed."
Percy cried out in Aquan, "We hear you're hungry! Come on out and we'll feed you!"
The incredulous siyokoys swam into view, so Kyllia used her Rod of Splendor to summon a feast fit for 100. Percy asked them whether they were trapped, and when they admitted they were he promised to teleport them all out once the party had finished exploring the underwater region. The siyokoys couldn't believe their luck, and offered to assist the party in moving around the submerged area so that they could have their freedom all the sooner.
Aulthunn pointed out the Illusory Walls she had put up for her own protection, the flamma horicalcum revealed how the clockwork soldiers were all wound by a single key wielded by clockwork servants and then put into Temporal Stasis, and Aulthunn pointed out that to the south was a construct that would attack them. They decided to go south. (And yes, there was a HUGE amount of discussion as to how to have Percy keep up an Antimagic Field while somehow managing to not drown while the other party members destroyed the soldiers, but destroying 1760 soldiers would be tedious, and probably wasn't what the author had in mind.)
As they opened the door, the Xin-possessed clockwork leviathan attacked. In fact, Xin recognized Aulthunn on sight and called her a betrayer and swore he'd kill her. She had her siyokoy tow her through her Illusory Wall and had the rest come with her for their safety. Percy used Control Construct to get into a battle of control with Xin, and managed to wrest control of the construct for a full round, ensuring its quick doom. (The Chain Lightning when they were all protected from electricity didn't help.)
All the pieces suddenly snapped into place for Percy. An immortal underwater creature that bristled at being called an outsider. Xin and the axiomites recognizing her. The siyokoys calling her, "Great one." Making a series of excellent Knowledge rolls, Percy realized that he was in the presence of none other than Ogonthunn, the aboleth who'd tutored Xin and raised the Thassilonian empire.
Ogonthunn didn't deny it. She reverted to her natural form (Kyllia called her "cute") and explained her history with Xin: She had taught him, encouraged him to leave Azlant, and provided him with the crystal with which to build the foundation of Thassilon. She hadn't lied about anything else, and in fact hadn't lied to the party once since their trip to Magnimar.
The party was satisfied with her explanations of all that had transpired, and invited her to continue traveling with the party.
And that's where we stopped.
{. . .}
Ogonthunn {. . .}
The party was satisfied with her explanations of all that had transpired, and invited her to continue traveling with the party.
{. . .}
Okay, we've got to see what happens with this.
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{. . .}
Ogonthunn {. . .}
The party was satisfied with her explanations of all that had transpired, and invited her to continue traveling with the party.
{. . .}Okay, we've got to see what happens with this.
I suspect it'll be remarkably boring. She's said, "I want this artifact. I want to negotiate to obtain this second artifact. Once you've cleaned this place out I want to spend time researching it," and they've said, "Yeah, yeah. All of that is fine."
She's divulged her general intentions and what she plans to do, and the party's attitude is, "Well, it's going to take her at least 1000 years to do all this stuff, and none of it seems to be all that terrible, so not our problem."
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^Now I want to hear them say "If you can't be good, at least be careful".
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Session 52, Played 25-Jul-2021
The party asked Aulthunn what else to expect in the area, and she pointed out her temporary workshops to the west and north; the west one had three golems she'd gained enough control of to not attack her, and the northern one had one more. She hadn't been through the door to the eastern chamber and couldn't provide any information as to what was there. Deciding to move clockwise, the party moved towards the western workshop. Aulthunn went through her Illusory Wall first, then guided the party and their siyokoy allies into an area hidden from the golems
One Force Wall and clever placement by the siyokoys later (they could swim far faster than the party members or golems could move in the water, and Aulthunn provided telepathic communication for coordination), the golems were quickly smashed and the group found Aulthunn's first work area. The Flamma Horicalcum replayed the scene of Xin creating the Sihedron with his seven apprentices, all of whom seemed to hate him with a passion. Perhaps if he'd spent a bit more on Sense Motive he wouldn't be in his current predicament?
Continuing along their path, Aulthunn led them through two more Illusory Walls and they dispatched the golem in her other workshop. As she promised, there were several magic weapons and an Iron Golem Manual among the ruins, and the Flamma Horicalcum showed that this was where the clockwork army armed itself. On the floor was a sealed rupture that both the siyokoys and Aulthunn admitted they'd used to enter the building.
As they approached the final door, the Red Sash recognized that it might be airtight (not in the AP, but his Perception to detect traps was a 43, and I thought it was the kind of thing you might notice underwater). The group had Aulthunn and the siyokoys stay back a safe distance, then Percy put up a Force Wall to create an air lock and the Red Sash opened the door. Inside was a room of spare parts along with a crushing hand trap that the Red Sash had no trouble disabling. The Flamma Horicalcum showed nothing but an eternity of servants coming and fetching items for their master.
Satisfied that they'd explored the entire underwater area, the siyokoys asked whether the party would keep their promise. Kyllia put Life Bubble on them and Aulthunn and the party helped them flop up the staircase to the throne room, then Percy and Aulthunn Dimension Doored them to the open sea. The fact that the party trusted Aulthunn in her true form alone with Percy spoke volumes of their understanding with her: They were allies until they weren't. Until then, they trusted each other implicitly.
The Axiomites at the front door greeted Percy and Aulthunn (now in her human form) warmly, and apologized again to Aulthunn for not being able to find the master. As they stood on the staircase in the throne room ready to order it to rise, Aulthunn squeezed herself to the middle of the party. It was clear there was a good reason she was millenia old: She didn't take chances with her life.
The first room they found upstairs was a massive hall filled with constructs of all shapes and sizes. The Flamma Horicalcum showed the constructs slowly filling the room, but none of them were animate. There were numerous doorways around the room, but a massive double door to the east decorated with a clockwork dragon carving caught their eye. The Red Sash noticed that the clockwork dragon was moving and the fight was on.
Once again the dragon was possessed by Xin, and Percy realized that this meant that Xin could possess any clockworks at any time; he wasn't limited to one clockwork a day. This infuriated him. As before, Xin focused his wrath on Aulthunn, first breathing on her, then hitting her with Finger of Death, and he would have attacked her had the Red Sash and Galyn not engaged him. She returned fire with multiple Chain Lightnings, and, seeing their efficacy, Percy joined in with a Lightning Arc. Finally Percy got bored with the whole situation and Disintegrated the dragon. It failed its save, vanished in a puff of dust, and Kyllia mournfully pointed out that they'd been supposed to preserve its head for the Aquaretum. Ah, well. Fragile constructs and all that.
As Kyllia healed Aulthunn, she realized that Aulthunn was far tougher than she was letting on, with well over 300 hit points, and probably over 350. Not bad for a sorceress! Kyllia healed her anyway. The door to the east led to a spellwell for enchantment. There were four traps on the next door, but the Red Sash disarmed them all, muttering the entire time about a mysterious "damned author trolling for 1s". The Flamma Horicalcum revealed a vision of Xin building a series of skymetal vaults, connected by Teleportation Circles (which as usual ignore the anti-teleportation effects of the castle because author) that had to be triggered in a specific order. Percy memorized the order.
Aulthunn cursed and muttered, "Barbarians," when Earthfall destroyed what she had built and the crystal faded to darkness.
The next room had a sihedron rune inlaid in the floor. Percy recognized the Teleportation Circle, gathered the party, and they teleported to the first skymetal vault...
...only to be in immediate combat with a bythos aeon...
...and all of them were Slowed, no save. Because why not?
Unfortunately, Shiro is a far cannier player than most, and since Percy has a massive Intelligence I let him get away with it. In a permanent unstoppable Slow field a bythos aeon is nothing but a speed bump.
Aging Strike? Sorry; you have to hit with two attacks and you're slowed.
Temporal Strike? Nope; the book says it doesn't work in this room.
Your spell list? Slow and Haste are useless, and you're bound to this room so all your teleportation and planar abilities are pointless. So, you punch 16th-level characters. For 1d6+6 per round. Er... ow?
Outside of the Slow field I'd question this creature's CR. It's really one of the most pathetic CR 16 creatures I've ever seen. Inside the Slow field Galyn and the Red Sash took their time and chopped it to pieces.
Once it was dead, Percy recognized the timeglass in the room. He went over, picked it up, focused his entire attention on Aulthunn, and used its once-a-day scry the past ability.
While he had no control over what he saw, he saw bits and pieces of Aulthunn's existence centered around the tower and her quest to obtain the crystal. As she had said, she was no longer deceiving them. They knew what she wanted, they were helping her get to it, she felt she was in control of the situation, and she was likely to negotiate faithfully with them because they couldn't possibly have an interest in it.
They had a brief discussion. Aulthunn's current plan was to use the crystal to build a new human empire, protected by Xin's construct army. She wouldn't promise to never attack another country unprovoked because "never is a long time", but if Percy was willing to give her a number of human generations to refrain from attacking others she could work with that. The party knew what she wanted, they weren't 100% opposed, and they were willing to help her get to the point where they could all negotiate.
What more could an immortal scheming abomination from the depths ask for?
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^Could be worse. At least it's an honest immortal scheming abomination from the depths.
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...I have to wonder whether the party being so blithe about cooperating with Aulthunn is partly a passive-aggressive revolt against the AP's writing.
No; this is the same group that willingly allowed an oni to lead the stone giants in Rise of the Runelords. They're perfectly willing to work with Lawful Evil creatures who are willing to take oaths. Unfortunately, they're accustomed to outsiders who typically cannot break their oaths (in our world), versus non-outsiders who simply prefer not to.
(The oni was bound to only lead the stone giants in war against chaotic evil tribes such as hill giants, ogres, and many of the orc tribes. So he had a vested interest in keeping the stone giant tribe strong enough to make war and had an eternity of bloodshed to look forward to -- while making the Storval Plateau safer for everyone else. It helped matters that he had a drow paladin who'd sworn to check on him every millennium to ensure he was doing right by the giants, so he had to be sure to rein in his bloodthirsty nature enough not to get slaughtered by a semi-divine paladin.)
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Just FYI, we're on a brief hiatus, as Shiro was out of town August 1, I'm going on a trip starting tomorrow (hence not running today), and I'm extremely unlikely to want to run on the 15th right after getting back from my trip.
So the next game will likely be August 22, meaning the writeup'll show up around August 25.
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Home and prepping the rest of the vaults:
D2: Auto-fight with another Xin-haunted construct, but this one is a CR-5 fight (they're level 17, the encounter is CR 12). The book misprints this as a CR 15 fight, but it's only two creatures: One CR 9 and one CR 11. Why am I wasting my PCs' time with this fight again?
D3: Auto-fight at CR-1, but it's two CR 14 creatures so they shouldn't even be a speed bump. Yeah, eternal meaningless fights with no interactions is fun!
D4: Auto-fight at CR-2, but with permanent ability drain so it's more "fun".
D5: Auto-fight at CR-2 (miscalculated again) and area effect petrifying breath weapons from multiple creatures. Because fun.
D6: Auto-fight at CR-1 against an incredibly annoying environmental effect (1d6 of random elemental damage to everyone in the room every round, which is nothing but bookkeeping at level 17).
D7: Finally, a really interesting NPC I can roleplay! Oh, whoops! "If the PCs do manage to free her, she cackles with glee and attacks them at once..."
The good old, "Because I'm Chaotic Evil I can't possibly control myself and escape to cause much greater harm in the long run. I have to attack the obviously-powerful group that just demonstrated 9th-level casting ability. Because I'm nothing more than XP and loot to the author."
Plus she's CR-1, so she'll die.
And that's Area D.
^At least have them say something really weird when they enter combat.
For the record, I suppose I'll do a brief writeup on Wednesday, but it was essentially, "Buff up and summon as many creatures as can fit in the Teleport Circle in D1, then attack everything we see from surprise the moment we teleport in to each room."
A ready-made scry-n-fry for the party against CR-2 encounters. It was the ruthless bloodbath it sounds like.
Though I was wrong about the CR-5 fight. It was six CR 9 creatures plus one CR 11 creature, indeed making it CR 15 as stated in the book...
...except the party is 17th level at this point, so why are you hitting them with a CR 15 encounter at all, much less one that's composed of CR 9 critters?
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Session 53, played 15-Aug-2021
None of us could figure out exactly why the author chose to put in a series of CR-1 and CR-2 fights, though. They really were quite pointless.
Now that the party knew how the vaults were likely to operate, they decided on a very simple plan: Aulthunn would stay behind and catch up 10 rounds later. (Percy figured they could ditch her; Aulthunn figured she could manage spells from all 7 schools easily enough.) Percy would start by summoning a lillend azata, who would then perform. Galyn would rage, Kyllia would put up Blessing of Fervor, Percy would Haste everyone, Galyn would align the Sihedron to the upcoming room, and they'd just run into every room and kill whatever they saw. It was ruthlessly effective.
The adamantine vault had seven statues that Percy immediately recognized as animated objects so the party attacked. The ghost of Xin possessed one and the party immediately smashed that one, so Xin attempted to possess another one but ran out of spirit points. Kyllia recognized that Xin had overreached himself, and they'd likely have at least an hour before he could manifest again. A 17th-level party plus a lillend azata against a group of CR 9 constructs wasn't an interesting fight in any way, shape, or form. The party didn't slow down to loot, but immediately teleported to the next vault.
The djezet vault didn't seem to have anything in it, but Kyllia's Deathwatch told her that there were two living creatures in the pool that appeared to be djezet so the party engaged. (Someone) identified the mezlans as oozes that could absorb and then cast spells, so Kyllia put up a Wall of Fire to block their line of sight so their Chain Lightnings only hit the Red Sash and Galyn, but both of them made their saves and still had their Resist Energy: Electricities up so the mezlans did under 20 hit points total before falling.
Teleporting into the inubrix vault, the party found themselves surrounded by two dread wraiths, so Percy cast Time Stop and used his rounds to place a pair of astral deva angels next to the wraiths. The wraiths couldn't ignore two creatures pounding on them with Disrupting weapons, so all of their drains were against the divas, who made virtually all of their saves, so the wraiths did very little to the party proper. Without Aulthunn, there was just enough room for the party to squeeze into the teleportation circle for the next vault.
The noqual vault had two elder crystallises whose petrification clouds were defeated by the party's Life Bubbles so they just died.
The siccate vault had an iron golem that was not possessed by Xin, so it was only a CR 14 fight and the party had adamantine weapons, so yeah, not much of anything there.
Any hopes I'd had for any roleplaying in the abysium vault were dashed when Percy brought a lillend azata and two astral deva angels into the presence of a marilith demon. She never even got an action, as Percy used Irresistable Dance on her on the first round and in spite of making her save she never got another action.
At the end of the vaults, Percy declared himself tired and ready to go home. They waited for half an hour and Aulthunn finally caught up with them, carrying the loot from all the previous rooms in a Portable Hole.
They were ready to rest up and head in to the final battle.
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Oh, for Pete's sake (I'd use a stronger obscenity, but I'm feeling polite).
[The Boss] uses Telekinesis to try to wrench the Sihedron away from its controller... mixing melee and ranged attacks as appropriate in a round.
Well, that's kind of interesting because we have:
Telekinesis: Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip... This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.
Concentration: The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
In other words, you can't use Telekinesis without concentrating, and concentrating is a standard action. So that whole bit about "mixing melee and ranged attacks"? Can't happen. Following tactics-as-written, the boss just stands there concentrating on a Telekinesis spells and dies in a horribly stupid manner.
Have I mentioned how frustrating it is to have AP writers who don't have a basic understanding of the rules, such as how economy of action works or how basic core rulebook spells work?
EDIT: I'm sure the argument would be, "Since it's a Quickened spell, it only takes a swift action to cast, then it'll last the rest of the round whether or not he concentrates so he can combine it with all the other attacks in a full-round action, just like you would with a normal disarm."
But when the spell's duration is "Concentration" and the spell description explicitly says it ends the moment concentration ceases, I'd say that's a heck of a stretch to grant the caster an extra action a turn.
If I were dealing with a player, I'd explain it this way:
(1) You cast Quickened Telekinesis. You are now concentrating on maintaining the spell.
(2) You start a full-round action. By the rules, you cannot perform a full-round action while concentrating on a spell. (Concentrating on a spell is a standard action, and you can't do both a standard and a full-round action in a single round.) Therefore, as a free action you cease concentration the moment you start the full-round action.
(3) By the description of Telekinesis, the spell ends the moment you cease concentration, so you can't use it during your full-round action.
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Session 54, Played 29-Aug-2021: THE END
Decision #1: To use Mage's Disjunction as a defensive spell rather than an offensive one. Xin had lost. The positioning made it obvious. He had no cards left, nothing he could do. He was just going to stand there and die. Playing him as-written, he would have cast a spiteful Mage's Disjunction at the Sihedron in a final attempt to keep it out of the PCs' hands. Unfortunately, I'd made the mistake of reading the GM thread where people point out that with an Int of 39, Xin should use his Disjunction in an intelligent manner. I really, truly, honestly did not know how devastating that spell is. I can safely say I'll never have a bad guy cast it again.
Decision #2: To try to force the retreat. After the Mage's Disjunction, I was worried the party was going to try to stay in the room and continue the fight. I wanted to force them to retreat and regroup so that they'd be able to win Round 2. So I had the crystallids breathe on two of them. I figured at around 50/50 I'd have three PCs left and they'd pick up their stoned companion and leave. But no, in the final battle, with yet more, "We spam area effect disables at you" monsters, the players' luck ran out and they all failed their saves on everything that mattered.
So the campaign ended on a bitter loss, no one wants to try to pick up the pieces, and we're done.
The party teleported back to Magnimar, rested for the night, and buffed up for the final battle. Going back in, they entered Xin's final stronghold, went through the first storage room, and had little trouble dispatching the rune giant grave knight in the second room. All that was left was Xin himself. Percy told Aulthunn to stay behind, and she made him promise that they'd negotiate for the artifacts, he promised again, and the party went up to battle Xin.
The start of the fight was a joke. Percy used two Time Stops so before Xin so much as knew what was happening he was surrounded by Walls of Force on all sides, the Red Sash and Galyn flanking him, two astral devas above him, and a lillend azata performing to buff everyone. The rest of his forces were outside the Walls of Force and couldn't help him. He was doomed before he got a second action.
Not wanting the final fight to be a joke, I tried to clear the board with a Mage's Disjunction. That DC 29 Will save that doesn't seem all THAT bad? Try it on every single magic item of every single player. It was devastation. The Red Sash alone had his armor class drop by 20. It was obvious the party was in real, real trouble. Trying to give them a little shove towards the door, I tried to petrify Galyn and Percy, figuring that even if I got them both the Red Sash could pick them up and Kyllia could Dimension Door everyone out.
I got them both.
Then Xin full-rounded the Red Sash and killed him outright, because he'd been wounded and the "trivial" 119 points Xin hit him for sent him to -20 hit points.
All of a sudden, with 3 of the 4 players out, there was no one to pick up anyone else, so Kyllia just Dimension Doored to Aulthunn, and they fled to safety, ending the campaign.
And writing this up I'm bothered by another question: What did the Red Sash and Kyllia do between Xin's two actions? Did I somehow screw up the initiative order? (Doubtful, since I use Roll20's table, but we're missing some key actions there.)
Anyway, the campaign ended with a bitter, angry thud, and the players have no desire to revisit it, so it's all over.
EDIT: OK. Talked to GothBard. Kyllia did indeed re-cast Blessing of Fervor to try to continue the fight after the Disjunction, then the two petrifications happened, then the Red Sash moved between the two petrified characters to prepare to be Dimension Doored, and Xin killed him.
Thanks for giving us this journal. It is important to capture the negative experiences as well as the positive ones.