COM Clarification of Intent - Does Soulfire work with Solar Flare?

[BigNorseWolf]

MorikTheMad wrote:

Yet, they are also saying "you can apply interposing to a crystal, even though a crystal is not a melee weapon".

I have explained why there's no contradiction there. Multiple. Multiple times. You don't want to hear the answer, you are not willing to accept that not everyone makes a huge deal out of the wording of soulfire. And it doesn't help you anyway.

[Hmm]

Hmm reads through thread, and sighs.

Although I believe the combination works, I am avoiding it for Organized Play. Table variation sucks, and means that your character will play differently from GM to GM. Until a designer clarifies this matter, I'm not using the two together in Org Play. Home games, though...

Pew-pew!

Hmm

[Garrett Larghi]

Got a quick question. Does soulfire work on the solar shield?

[BigNorseWolf]

Garrett Larghi wrote:

Got a quick question. Does soulfire work on the solar shield?

eyup

You can add solarian weapon crystals to your solar shield as if it were a solar weapon, in which case their benefits apply to unarmed attacks you make with the shield.

[Damanta]

I wonder how this discussion would be if there was originally a mention in the solar weapon that you could add fusions to it, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to an advanced melee weapon.

[Garretmander]

Damanta wrote:

I wonder how this discussion would be if there was originally a mention in the solar weapon that you could add fusions to it, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to an advanced melee weapon.

I would have hoped that the soulfire fusion would have then be written differently so that it would work with that line.

I'd likely be disappointed, but I would have had hope.

[MorikTheMad]

I do understand the arguments BNW & Garretmander are making, but I do not think it is clearly the case that "Soulfire is a fusion that cannot affect a small arm."

If you do read it as unable to affect a small arm, then yes the argument is valid and soulfire's benefit cannot be gained by solar flare.

But soulfire does not say, for instance, that it can only go on melee weapons. It says, essentially, that it can only go on weapons that can be augmented with a crystal. This does not categorically exclude melee weapons--if a particular melee weapon can be augmented with a crystal, it can work with soulfire.
It also does not categorically exclude small arms, thrown weapons, long arms, or any other category. If the thing in question can be augmented by the crystal, it can use soulfire.

This is quite different from a fusion that says "this only goes on melee weapons". This very clearly cannot go on a small arm, no matter what properties that small arm has (well, unless it has some specific rule that it can use melee-only things).

I.e., "only works with weapons that have property X" should not be read as "Can never be applied to <melee | small arm | long arm | thrown> weapons."

Going back to the AND gate inputs.

COM wrote:

Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.

italic = input A

bold = input B.

The arguments as I understand them:

1) Literally, soulfire goes on weapon crystals, small arms aren't weapon crystals, so B is false.

I don't find this particular argument compelling--the interaction between crystals & fusions is fuzzy enough that a literal 'this goes on crystals only, so can't go on a small arm' seems silly to me, in the same way that 'you can't use interposing on solar weapon, because you'd have to put it on a crystal, and a crystal isn't a melee weapon' seems silly.
I.e., if it is incorrect to say "soulfire can never work with a melee weapon, because melee weapons aren't weapon crystals", then I don't see why people are arguing it is correct to say "soulfire can never work on a small arm, because a small arm isn't a weapon crystal".
The most reasonable way to read it is that it works on things (whether they are small arms, melee weapons, or whatever) that can be augmented with the crystal.

2) Solar flare cannot use 'A' to qualify for soulfire, because 'A' doesn't come into play without first passing 'B', and you can't pass 'B' without 'A'. (I think this is perhaps why BNW found my argument circular earlier in the thread.)

My disagreement here is with considering soulfire as categorically excluding small arms; since it is possible for soulfire to work with a small arm (if it has the right properties), soulfire does not have the property "can never work with a small arm", so B doesn't trigger.

Just like 'only works on weapons that deal fire damage' doesn't exclude the categories 'ranged|melee|thrown|etc', 'only works on weapons that can be augmented with the crystal' doesn't exclude those categories either.
Just like "only fire damage weapons" != "can never work on a thrown weapon", "only weapons augmentable with the crystal" != "can never work on a small arm".

[BigNorseWolf]

Free shuttle rides off of tatooine for any residents of tatooine, though no Tuskens allowed

[Joe Pasini]

Our updated FAQ now holds the answer to this question: No, the soulfire fusion does not work with solar flare.

[Rysky the Dark Solarion]

*throws space tomato*

[Owen KC Stephens]

No answer would have made everyone happy. I'm thrilled Joe got the time to give an answer.

[HammerJack]

Please hold all space produce. It's good to have an official answer to a contentious question, and solar flare is still really good.

[Rysky the Dark Solarion]

It's okay, they were all rotten. They'll be mopped up for compost afterwards.

[Ascalaphus]

HammerJack wrote:

Please hold all space produce. It's good to have an official answer to a contentious question, and solar flare is still really good.

Yeah, after someone showed me some math about solar flare at low level, I was starting to feel like it might have been too much of a good thing after all.

[Cyrad]

Joe Pasini wrote:

Our updated FAQ now holds the answer to this question: No, the soulfire fusion does not work with solar flare.

Can you provide an explanation to the FAQ why this is the case?

Is it:
A) Soulfire fusion only works for melee solar weapons? Or
B) Solar flare can only benefit from small arms fusions?

As written, a GM might assume that no solarian crystal weapon fusion can apply to a solar flare, which is so counter-intuitive and against the perceived intent of the class feature that the ability would deserve an errata.

[Lethallin]

Cyrad wrote:

Joe Pasini wrote:

Our updated FAQ now holds the answer to this question: No, the soulfire fusion does not work with solar flare.

Can you provide an explanation to the FAQ why this is the case?

Is it:
A) Soulfire fusion only works for melee solar weapons? Or
B) Solar flare can only benefit from small arms fusions?

As written, a GM might assume that no solarian crystal weapon fusion can apply to a solar flare, which is so counter-intuitive and against the perceived intent of the class feature that the ability would deserve an errata.

It would depend on what you mean by B, but it's not A as there's been little debate about if Soulfire works with Solar Shield.

Solar Flare can't only benefit from "Small Arms Fusions", it just can't benefit from anything that a Small Arm can't benefit from.

I think of it like a black list or a white list, to put it a different way. Solar Flare doesn't have a white list, by saying "It can't benefit from a fusion unless it says it works with Small Arms", it has a black list by saying "It can benefit from any fusion, except those that say they can't affect a small arm".

It's a small distinction, but it's there. So since SoulFire excludes ALL weapon types except Solarian Weapon Crystals (including Small Arms), it's not valid.

[Cyrad]

Lethallin wrote:

Solar Flare can't only benefit from "Small Arms Fusions", it just can't benefit from anything that a Small Arm can't benefit from.

I think of it like a black list or a white list, to put it a different way. Solar Flare doesn't have a white list, by saying "It can't benefit from a fusion unless it says it works with Small Arms", it has a black list by saying "It can benefit from any fusion, except those that say they can't affect a small arm".

It's a small distinction, but it's there. So since SoulFire excludes ALL weapon types except Solarian Weapon Crystals (including Small Arms), it's not valid.

Number of major problems with this.

1) This does not match the logic and interpretation of any existing, well established ability of similar nature. Normally rules like this apply to situations such as applying vorpal to a non-slashing weapon or a melee-only ability to a ranged weapon.

2) Solar flare says it benefits from solarian weapon crystals and other abilities that affect solar weapons. It would be extremely counter-intuitive and against the presented intent of the language if a weapon that benefits from solarian crystals cannot benefit from weapon fusions meant for solarian crystals.

3) This is an extreme level of rules interpretation that does not fit with Starfinder. Keep in mind that solarian weapon crystals are technically not weapons -- they're items that buff solar weapons. We had to be told outside of the core rulebook that weapon fusions can attach to crystals. The tactical rules rely on you already knowing 1st Edition Pathfinder to fill in the gaps. The computer rules are also loose and still have unanswered questions. A super strict interpretation of rules language is not appropriate for Starfinder.

[pithica42]

I really appreciate the FAQ on this. Thank you.

[Pantshandshake]

Cyrad wrote:

Number of major problems with this.

1) This does not match the logic and interpretation of any existing, well established ability of similar nature. Normally rules like this apply to situations such as applying vorpal to a non-slashing weapon or a melee-only ability to a ranged weapon.

2) Solar flare says it benefits from solarian weapon crystals and other abilities that affect solar weapons. It would be extremely counter-intuitive and against the presented intent of the language if a weapon that benefits from solarian crystals cannot benefit from weapon fusions meant for solarian crystals.

3) This is an extreme level of rules interpretation that does not fit with Starfinder. Keep in mind that solarian weapon crystals are technically not weapons -- they're items that buff solar weapons. We had to be told outside of the core rulebook that weapon fusions can attach to crystals. The tactical rules rely on you already knowing 1st Edition Pathfinder to fill in the gaps. The computer rules are also loose and still have unanswered questions. A super strict interpretation of rules language is not appropriate for Starfinder.

1) This is exactly like applying a melee only ability to a ranged weapon, except its worded a little strangely and is vastly more specific. Can the fusion go on a small arm? Yes? Then it works. No? Then it does not.

2) You’re correct that the decision to not allow the Soulfire fusion to work with Solar Flare is odd. However, them’s the breaks, as it were. Paizo has clarified the intent, question is answered.
3) What? When did you get to decide what’s appropriate for Starfinder? They answered the question. It’s a no. Move on.

[Dominik D]

why dont we have a megathread where people collect all things that should have an errata. wouldnt that take a lot of work from joe??

[BigNorseWolf]

Cyrad wrote:

2) Solar flare says it benefits from solarian weapon crystals and other abilities that affect solar weapons. It would be extremely counter-intuitive and against the presented intent of the language if a weapon that benefits from solarian crystals cannot benefit from weapon fusions meant for solarian crystals.

But those are the ONLY thing that we know affects solar flare. Any limitation has to be more specific than that, or there's no point to it at all. The inability to gain a fusion that can't go on a small arm trumps the ability to use a weapon crystal.

[Cyrad]

Pantshandshake wrote:

What? When did you get to decide what’s appropriate for Starfinder? They answered the question. It’s a no. Move on.

The only question answered is whether or not a Solar Flare can benefit from the Soulfire weapon fusion. Whether or not the Solar Flare can benefit from future solar weapon fusions remains unanswered because the above question was not elaborated on.

Honestly, I am fine with Soulfire not working on Solar Flare. I just don't want another instance like the "unarmed strikes count as a single weapon" ruling causing GMs to forbid monks from using multiple unarmed strikes during flurry of blows.

[Garretmander]

Cyrad wrote:

Pantshandshake wrote:

What? When did you get to decide what’s appropriate for Starfinder? They answered the question. It’s a no. Move on.

The only question answered is whether or not a Solar Flare can benefit from the Soulfire weapon fusion. Whether or not the Solar Flare can benefit from future solar weapon fusions remains unanswered because the above question was not elaborated on.

Honestly, I am fine with Soulfire not working on Solar Flare. I just don't want another instance like the "unarmed strikes count as a single weapon" ruling causing GMs to forbid monks from using multiple unarmed strikes during flurry of blows.

Based on the current language and this precedent, future fusions that can only be applied to a solarian weapon crystal cannot also apply to a solar flare unless there is additional language allowing it.

[Cyrad]

Garretmander wrote:

Cyrad wrote:

Pantshandshake wrote:

What? When did you get to decide what’s appropriate for Starfinder? They answered the question. It’s a no. Move on.

The only question answered is whether or not a Solar Flare can benefit from the Soulfire weapon fusion. Whether or not the Solar Flare can benefit from future solar weapon fusions remains unanswered because the above question was not elaborated on.

Honestly, I am fine with Soulfire not working on Solar Flare. I just don't want another instance like the "unarmed strikes count as a single weapon" ruling causing GMs to forbid monks from using multiple unarmed strikes during flurry of blows.

Based on the current language and this precedent, future fusions that can only be applied to a solarian weapon crystal cannot also apply to a solar flare unless there is additional language allowing it.

This will likely see table variation. As I pointed out, this interpretation justifies itself with an ambiguous line that is counter-intuitive and doesn't follow existing language precedent.

The FAQ only answers that Solar Flare cannot benefit from weapon crystals and provides neither explanation nor indication whether or not future crystal-only fusions can apply.

[Garretmander]

Cyrad wrote:

This will likely see table variation. As I pointed out, this interpretation justifies itself with an ambiguous line that is counter-intuitive and doesn't follow existing language precedent.

The FAQ only answers that Solar Flare cannot benefit from weapon crystals and provides neither explanation nor indication whether or not future crystal-only fusions can apply.

It's really not ambiguous, even if it will see table variation. The sentence is very clear, even if a lot of people think it makes sense that anything solar weapon related works on solar flares.

As has been repeated ad naseum, part A of the sentence includes solar crystal fusions among a larger subset of various rules that affect solar flare, part B of the same sentence excludes solar weapon fusions from that large set of rules. Part B also excludes things like melee weapon fusions applied to a solarian crystal, melee only weapon special properties, etc.

[Xenocrat]

A bit of necromancy for those sad they didn't get their Soulfire on Soul Flare - for the same cost of the Soulfire Fusion you can get a Thundering fusion (albeit taking up 9 insted of 2 levels of room on your crystal) and then add a Reverberating Amplifier armor upgrade (from AA4) to add half your level in extra sonic damage. Since the soonest this kicks in is level 9, you're looking at a +4 to +10 (at level 20) damage boost, or slightly behind to slight ahead of what Soulfire would have given you over those levels.

Of course this trick isn't limited to the Solar Flare or even Solarians, it's a universally available damage boost if you invest in the fusion and armor upgrade. But Solar Flarians probably have more capacity for the fusion space and more demand for an elemental changing fusion than some others, especially melee builds and Solar Weaponarians.