Greetings,
I’m in the beginning phase of a new Rise of the Runelords AP after having run through some of the others, and asked the players if they would be willing to consider running some lower tiered adventurer classes. The players all agreed when I offered them up the following benefits scheme. These benefits accrued as follows: if you would be considered a tier 1, you get nothing. If you are a tier 2, you get one minor benefit. Tier 3 gets 2 benefits, tier 4 gets 4 benefits, and so on. These benefits were judged kind of like a wish spell, in that the player made the request for what they would want, but the effects were decided by me. I told the PC’s what the effect would be, so they could change their minds if they didn’t like it. I know that this is a very large deviation from the core rules, but it seemed like a good way to get some variety in the characters, as we were having a lot of the same party composition, adventure path to adventure path.
I am hoping that I could get some feedback from the forum on the party as to how they should be able to fair later on, as they have been fine so far in the Burnt Offerings.
Our first player is an Elven Magus Archer.
The second player is playing a Half-Elf Warpriest of Iomedae.
The third player wanted to be a Skinwalker Telekinetic Kineticist,
The last player was requesting something odd.
My question is, how badly will they fair in the second half of this adventure path? I figure that the first half should be easy, because it looks like they are four hammers, with one of the group is a secondary Anvil, another is a secondary Arms, the third is a very minor Anvil and the fourth is a selfish Arms. I worry that they will not do well at all after things become less about pure damage and more about strategizing and piling on or removing of effects mid encounter.
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So... it's rather hard to gauge the balance of such an unusual party, but there are some stand-out details.
Investigator - So, they'll have guns, which can be a rather big problem in this AP (especially the second half, when Touch ACs are clearly not rising and you're starting to auto-hit). However, they won't be gaining any Gunslinger abilities that make using guns viable, and they're giving up their armor proficencies... it mostly looks like this is a good collaboration to get this character killed as soon as possible. Perhaps there's some mitigating factors that I'm missing, but it looks to me like a rather weak class got nerfed here in exchange for... two weapon proficencies? I can't recommend that, especially with the goodies your other PCs are getting here.
Monk/Kineticist - I personally don't understand what gestalt classes are, but I know people use them for APs to increase the power level of characters, so my assumption is basically double-class progression, which seems wildly powerful. Would they consider the Elemental Ascetic kineticist archetype acceptable? If they're already going to be armorless and losing the mystical abilities of a monk, this would reduce how MAD they are a bit, make them more combat viable, and doesn't rely on gestalting. This would also firmly put them in the "Hammer" role with pseudo-full BAB.
Nothing really stands out as an issue with the perks you gave your magus and warpriest, and I have more experience with those two classes. That said, the thing that tips me off that there may be some balance issues comes down to the class choices themselves: you've got 4 3/4 BAB classes. While that'll be totally fine early on, like you've noted, there could be some issues in the second half:
2) In the same vein, the party won't have access to restoration until 10th level (end of Book 3), and won't have breath of life until the end of Book 4! In a situation like that, players can likely expect to be cycling through characters until they actually have the ability to keep them alive and in fighting condition - otherwise they'll be burning a lot of their cash just buying scrolls from Magnimar.
3) You've also identified the big issue from Day 1 that I can see - a dearth of control options. While control is admittedly not the most important levels 1-2 in the adventure, by the time the party hits Thistletop in Book 1, they already are going to want to reduce encounter difficulties. When Fort Rannick (Book 3) and Jorgenfist (Book 4) come around, they're going to be severely outmatched in the fighting department, and 3rd level magus spells aren't going to level the playing field. The kineticist can certainly help here, but kineticists can nowhere keep up with T1 and T2 classes that emphasize control.
So, I guess my answer is... no, this doesn't seem like a sufficent party for Rise of the Runelords, in my estimation. There's all sorts of ways to make just about any party work (not needing UMD to use wands, scrolls, and staves!; extra money), but this is pretty far from the party expectations that APs have in mind.
Someone is almost certainly going to have to take a bigger control role for the party to survive. As for all of the clerical abilities the party is expected to have, perhaps your Investigator could receive some perks regarding what sort of advanced technology they're capable of building - for instance, a Med Bay that lets them exchange resource costs for early-access 'Remove X' effects. If only they can operate it, it shouldn't be game-breaking to let them build something like that over time.
So... it's rather hard to gauge the balance of such an unusual party, but there are some stand-out details.
Investigator - So, they'll have guns, which can be a rather big problem in this AP (especially the second half, when Touch ACs are clearly not rising and you're starting to auto-hit). However, they won't be gaining any Gunslinger abilities that make using guns viable, and they're giving up their armor proficiencies... it mostly looks like this is a good collaboration to get this character killed as soon as possible. Perhaps there's some mitigating factors that I'm missing, but it looks to me like a rather weak class got nerfed here in exchange for... two weapon proficiencies? I can't recommend that, especially with the goodies your other PCs are getting here.
I should have specified that the Investigator is starting out with a modern Pistol and rifle, not just the proficiencies, and that their starting equipment is all modern. Also, if he does choose to multiclass, he'd get armor prof. immediately, as far as I remember. I think I will take your suggestion in allowing them to utilize any modern knowledge that they might be able to bring to bear in the fantasy realm. As an aside, do you think that including the Path of War modifications to the class would help give it a bit more balance? I don't want to nerf the guy too hard. He will be using the Craft Mechanical & Electrical timeframes for creating items when he has the proper tools.
Monk/Kineticist - I personally don't understand what gestalt classes are, but I know people use them for APs to increase the power level of characters, so my assumption is basically double-class progression, which seems wildly powerful. Would they consider the Elemental Ascetic kineticist archetype acceptable? If they're already going to be armorless and losing the mystical abilities of a monk, this would reduce how MAD they are a bit, make them more combat viable, and doesn't rely on gestalting. This would also firmly put them in the "Hammer" role with pseudo-full BAB.
Gestalting is basically looking at whatever each class has to offer, the BAB, Saves, Skill Points, Hit Points, and Special Abilities. Anything that they have the same, such as BAB, they take the best, while anything that only one class has (Elemental Blast or Flurry of Blows), they get both.
I think I might have missed it, but I thought that the Elemental Ascetic required Lawful Alignment (which seemed to be a sticking point for the guy). Also, the guy specifically wanted to be able to throw things with his mind, and it looked from a cursory glance, that they give that up to have enhanced fists as an always on.
Nothing really stands out as an issue with the perks you gave your magus and warpriest, and I have more experience with those two classes. That said, the thing that tips me off that there may be some balance issues comes down to the class choices themselves: you've got 4 3/4 BAB classes. While that'll be totally fine early on, like you've noted, there could be some issues in the second half:
[spoiler=Spoilered Comments]1)remove curse, remove disease, or neutralize poison - Those will be big issues. I know that the Sandpoint focused book lists several options for purchasable potions. If the Magus is making things at half price for the group, maybe this can offset the lack. I will be asking the Investigator if he intends on splitting off from investigator or going full class. Maybe he has something planned to help out more.
2)Restoration/Breath of Life - Seeing this issue, I know that the Kineticist was talking about getting the Kinetic Healing Chain, with the Kinetic Restoration. This isn't full Restoration, but might take some of the load. He might also be looking at Kinetic Revivification later on as well, but that comes online even later. I'll look into seeding some magic to compensate for this if it starts getting close.
3)I think that I'll work a bit more with the Investigator to ensure that they can contribute.
Thank you for looking over this. I'll talk to the Investigator and maybe the Kineticist.
What is really your goal with this tier restriction and extra boons? It doesn’t make any sense
Is it that you don’t want a wizard and a cleric ?
The AP was built for wizards. There is so much spell book treasure
Or are you worried about some players being much stronger than others and the others not enjoying it? I don’t really understand
What was the same composition you keep seeing? Couldn’t those just be restricted somehow?
And where have you got the tier rankings from? As they are rather debatable and also depending on other player builds and skill
I have a Kineticist in my AP group that was easily the most powerful character by an absolute country mile right up to level 9 and is still one of the most powerful due to other player choices
Given you seem to be treating this issue as completely unambiguous my guess is your group’s always just play tier 1 or maybe tier 2 classes? Just ban those.
But you really shouldn’t be offering weird confusing and unbalanced side benefits just to encourage people to play a class. They either want to or they don’t...
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So, I can't speak for the OP, but I'm familiar with a lot of the same PF discourse that I think informed the boons structure, the tiers, and the anvil/arm/hammer metaphor.
The tier list is perhaps best summed up here. They explain the logic behind it, but - while yes, player skill is certainly the biggest determining factor in a character's efficacy, where that skill's impact caps out is something that can be fairly estimated. This is an extremely longstanding concept within d&d, so while not everyone buys into it necessarily, I don't think it's all that controversial to acknowledge tiers for experienced players.
While I don't use 'boons' - my players are all inexperienced and wouldn't really know what to ask for anyhow if I did - I do use the tier guidelines to steer my own homebrewing, focusing on the classes at the bottom rungs - fighter, cavalier, paladin, rogue, ranger, etc - as those that deserve the most attention. For me, this is because players of mine have typically found these characters to grow stale much sooner than my 3/4 and full casters do, as they only get more diverse options and more game-defining capabilities as the game goes on anyhow. OP's approach puts players in charge of the homebrewing, and the 'boons' do indicate how much to homebrew.
Furthermore, a system of encouraging people to play weaker classes with boons doesn't necessarily discourage people from playing more powerful ones - it just makes weaker ones more interesting. As I mentioned, I make homebrew alterations - primarily buffs - to every class considered low-tier, and my players still just play the classes that they like (one will only play druid, hunter, ranger; one just wants big damage numbers; one will play any control, but only control, etc.). That doesn't mean they don't like the homebrew, and it certainly hasn't stopped them from picking T1 and T2 options, but extra perks for those lower-tier classes is always nice.
Regarding the Path of War modifications (I think you're referring to the Polymath archetype, but this is admittedly my first look at Path of War), I really can't gauge how good that is, as I have no experience with it. In general, I'm a big fan of giving martial classes pseudo spells and increased versatility, and I hear that's what Path of War tries to accomplish, so my initial expectation is that that's a net positive exchange.
Based on the boon system you're using, I'm guessing Investigators get 2 boons? I'll try and use the other boons you granted as a guideline for power level/impact.
Boon 1: Guns. The PC begins play with a pistol and rifle, and proficiency with pistols and rifles. They don't begin play with the Gunsmithing feat though, and the items aren't masterwork, so it will take some investment to maintain their use after a few levels - which is fine. Investigators' offensive capabilities come online ~ level 4, at which point they want to be fighting in melee anyway.
Boon 2: Crafting. The PC gains an expanded use of their skills (and special skills) in a manner similar to the Technologist feat, allowing them to craft advanced mechanical items similar to item crafting. This does mean that time, cost, and minimum Craft rank requirements come into play, but it should save the party loads of cash over purchasing scrolls and potions - or whatever else the investigator might craft. Otherwise, I'd treat this as Craft Wondrous Item, but more expensive to use - magic item crafting materials are basic trade goods in this world, after all - batteries aren't.
This does give the PC a reason to search for intact Thassilonian technology, as they should be able to make better use of it than your common archaeologist. Two specific examples come to mind - the former Runelord of Greed's aquatic library in Wisher's Well and the cloning facility inside the Pit. The rest of the party members have plenty to gain from these locations as well, so if they're the kind who like extra dungeons, that could be a fun trip for them.
Lastly, regarding that gestalt telekinetic monk... yeah, I have no idea how to merge kineticist and monk in the way described - it sounds neat, but it also lacks focus in a way that makes it tough to give suggestions. Are they looking to be a fighter-type with 3/4 BAB that can attack in melee or at a range? I'd take the Elemental Ascetic as a starting point, than make it work a bit more smoothly: no alignment restriction, pseudo-full BAB when full-attacking in melee with unarmed strikes, and they can accept 1 burn to turn their unarmed strike damage from d6 to (monk damage at level).
I find this gestalting business rather complicated, so I'd personally just aim for making a strong archetype over fully merging the classes, but perhaps that's genuinely simpler. I tend to dislike perks that just increase the damage output of damage dealing classes, but it sounds like you're using the old Chained monk, so I can't say that will really be the result.
Glad my suggestions pointed you in a good direction though, best of luck. If you finish Book 1 and you're still nervous about how it's going, check with your players about how they want to handle it.
Thank you for your response.
Askar answered a lot for me without really knowing it, so I'll only address the things I feel that he did not.
My group has a tendency to only utilize Arcanists, Wizard, Cleric, Summoner, Sorcerers and Druids. I asked if they wanted to do this because it should be a bit more of a challenge. They agreed when the boon system was mentioned.
The boons are not designed to fully bridge the gap between the tiers, and I was worried that I had asked them to do something impossible, by going through an Adventure path with only 6th level casters.
I tried doing various work arounds, and the best thing that I could find is that I offer some kind of jointly decided boon, or boons, to increase narrative capability. It tends to work out well enough. I would also give non-spellcasters an equivalent amount of "friend boons" equal to the amount of gold that a wizard would get for free for the new spells that they automatically get for levelling up. I.e. a 5th level fighter makes it to 6th level. They get 180 gp worth of free benefits from "friends". An old squadmate can act as a guard for a few weeks for free because the fighter saved his life back them, or maybe the chaplain from their old fighting unit will cast a few healing spells for free just for old times sake. Maybe his old employer set him up with a suit of masterwork Studded Leather if he needs it, for old times sake.
As a side note, I really do like Kineticists, but the core of their issue is a lack of options. The fact that the PC wanted to run a Jedi with the serial numbers filed off is just what that guy wanted.
It is the Polymath Archetype. Most of the Path of War things seem to be equally split between ranged and Hand to Hand, and he showed interest in the Ranged ones more than the close quarters one, so he liked that compromise.
Boon 1: He began play with a decent amount of Ammo for both items (pistol and rifle) and the masterwork issue is really only three hundred gold (and change) away anyway. The modern weaponry diverges from a little from the "current" firearm rules from what I found, so he would get the Semi-Automatic benefit for the pistol.
https://www.d20modernpf.com/wealth-and-equipment/weapons/#Handguns
Boon 2: Crafting. He is taking the Technologist feet as his human first level feet. He told me that he also expects to take the Psychic Sensitivity feat later on, and is really focusing on all of the skill unlocks. The Craft mechanics that he will be using, once he makes himself a proper workshop are found here: https://www.d20modernpf.com/characters/skills/#New_Craft_Skills
Pretty much exactly what you are suggesting, combined with the modification of the Investigator class to change Swift Alchemy to Swift Mechanical means he will be able to make things at about the same speed as CWI for the most part.
I didn't know about the Wisher's Well or the Pit's aspects of technology. That would definitely work for him. Are they in any individual adventures or in a later path that I missed?
Gestalt Telekinetic Martial Artist
You are fairly close on the mark to what they talked about wanting. They want to go the whole 3/4 BAB Switch Hitter, and are taking the Kinetic Blade as their first invocation. Between their Race (Witchwolf), and the fact that their three needed attributes, they are going to be a save monster, but I am accepting of that. If they want to focus on that, they can have that spotlight. It is the chained Monk. Honestly, the character could pass as a Jedi if what he told me he wanted to do with it pans out. Telekinesis, amped up weapon, increased jumping distance, and even "force lightning" when he branches out later into the Air element. He really wants to take Telekinetic Haul. But you know, be a werewolf.
As an aside, one of the things that I would do with the non-casters is give them a stipend when they level up of a gold amount worth of intangibles or favors, that they can buy off as needed, equal to the amount of gold value a wizard would get from the two free spells that get entered into their spellbook when they level. I.e. a fighter levels to 6, they get 180 gp worth of benefits that they can use at some time. Maybe an old squadmate is willing to guard something for a few weeks for free, because the fighter saved their life back in the day, or the chaplain of the squad is willing to cast some low level spells for free, just for old times' sake, or even a former employer might give the fighter a suit of chainmail, a heavy wooden shield, and a weapon or two if they are down on their luck for some reason. Maybe an innkeeper whose son he saved gives him six months of a room rental for free because of it. Just a little benefit that helps give some narrative ability back to the PC's that usually have a lesser ability to effect it.
I hope that this answers everything that was brought up. They are in Burnt offerings, so I'll let those who want to know more when they get done with it. Thank you for all of the responses.
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Ah, regarding the Thassilonian dungeons I recommended, the notes for those are in the Light of the Lost Coast: Sandpoint Campaign Setting guide in the location descriptions of Wisher's Well and The Pit respectively.
The Pit contains numerous mini-dungeons, one of which is a cloning facility currently inhabited by Derros. My assumption from the description is that it is still partially operational, and the Derros have been actively cloning themselves with it.
As for Wisher's Well, its dungeon is too major to quickly sum up, but it is currently an aquatic, subterranean dungeon ruled by a Thassilonian Greed specialist Aboleth named Vorimorath, who picked it up after it was abandoned by the 5th Runelord of Greed, Mazmiranna. This one in particular seems valuable for Rise of the Runelords, as it allows the party to get more info about Thassilon, a lesser library than the Therassic library, and its approximate CR would be ~ 8, a nice bridge between Books 2 and 3. It could even potentially connect to Xanesha, as the other inhabitants of the Well includes a tribe of aquatic Faceless Stalkers.
If you're looking for hooks to get the PCs to go to these locations:
Cloning Facility - This particular facility could be referenced either in remaining notes inside the Catacombs of Wrath or Thistletop - Nualia could have been interested in it when she was based in either location, or Lyrie could have found mention of it while at Thistletop. It could even be found in the fleshcrafting experiments room in Thistletop (E9 in Chapter 4).
Underwater Laboratory - This could have come to Xanesha's attention thanks to the inquiries of her pet Skinsaw Cult or direct knowledge from Karzoug. Otherwise, a good old-fashioned Varisian legend of the well's ability to grant wishes might do the trick, especially if the townsfolk would like to return those slain by the Skinsaw Man back to life. If the players have previously found the cloning facility, hints at this facility's presence (and requirements of entry) could be found there.
"Aboleth" -
That will be fun, one of my players told me years ago that they would walk out if they ever faced an Aboleth in a combat. I'll check to see if they are still as dead set against them or if that has decreased at all.
"a nice bridge between Books 2 and 3."'
That looks to be a very useful incident in between the adventures. I'll check back on it as we get closer to that point. If there is sufficient in game time (3 is set in the winter, right?), then that would give a good place to have them spend some of the time in between adventures.
So far, they've done fairly well in the first part of the adventure. I started them back in Windsong Abbey and had them all collect there before being sent to Sandpoint for the festival. I'll find a place to put all of the backstories up for all of them, but suffice to say it came down like this:
Elf Magus (worships Pulura): A time displaced person from a village from the time of Thassilon (they took the Elven Arrogance alternative racial trait that removes common from their spoken languages). She was an apprentice to the village mage and ended up in some time hijinks. Lots of Language and Knowledge skills.
Half-Elf Warpriest of Iomedae: A resident of Windsong Abbey, an orphan of crusaders who went forth to fight in the Worldwound. Kind of pissed off that she wasn't sent to go fight there after coming of age. She was a groom/groundskeeper while she was learning to be a holy warrior (Maxed out Handle Animal and Ride skills).
Half-Elf Skinwalker (Witchwolf): Alright, so here comes the crazy one. He took the character trait that allows you to only need sleep for two hours every night. His backstory is that he woke up in a cloning tube somewhere else (in space). He saw dozens of tubes where there were duplicates of him. This is a bit of a riff on the thought of him previously always playing the same type of character. His captors were entities that he did not know (Denizens of Leng) and they flushed him down into the world in a beam of light, right into the courtyard of Windsong Abbey. Not high on intellect, but an insane level of Perception.
Human (Modern) Investigator: Take Ash from Army of Darkness, Nitro from Down Periscope, and Macgyver and combine them all. Not much in the way of offense at first, aside from his Pistol, and his Rifle, and his Machete, and his camp axe, and his knives. Apparently the player decided that he was a prepper and wanted to drive his car into the and of Golarion. He gave me a list of .pdf's that he wanted his character to have. I looked over the list and found it mostly everyday stuff, except I noted that he had some documents that were titled as research papers. I think that he is going to push his crafting to the extreme.
They've managed to do some good with the first few combats. The Human was having a problem with communicating with everyone else, but I think that I might have a solution for that as well, ala Nisk and a language swap "potion".
Let me know if there are any other suggestions or thoughts.
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It's looking to be a very strange game with those origin stories, but I'm very interested to see how things go for 10,000 year old elf once they learn more about the Cataclysm and Thassilon's fate.
You didn't include the Skinwalker's class, but I'm guessing they went with the gestalt telekineticist/monk, so my answers to this thread's questions remain the same as they were.
Given that you have your answer and the game is now underway, you may want to switch to keeping a campaign journal, or create a separate advice thread once you need help with a specific issue. I don't think you'll have any problems throughout Book 1, so best of luck with your next few sessions.
As for your question re: the timeline.
Sometime in Lamashan (month 10), Book 2 starts. The ghoul plague spreads at a fast clip, so the party only has about 2 weeks from Session 1 to beat the Skinsaw Man before things get pretty bad.
The second half of Book 2 can happen pretty much whenever you want to pick things back up - my party didn't head to Magnimar until Kuthona 24 (12/24) so they could stay in town for the Solstice.
Book 3 typically takes place in Abadius (month 1), and can last anywhere from a few days to a few months.
Whenever they beat Barl Breakbones, set the expected date of Mokmurian's invasion 1 month later than it'll take them to get back to Sandpoint. Then, factoring in the delays caused by the Kreegs getting town apart and the loss of Lucrecia, add another month to how long it will actually take Mokmurian to begin his invasion.
Book 4 tends to be pretty short, but a party traveling on foot will typically handle Parts 2-7 in 2-3 weeks. It's difficult to stretch out the time it takes to handle attacking Jorgenfist.
The timing of Books 5 and 6 are totally up to you - the Sinkhole is the party's big break to possibly defeating Karzoug, but that happens whenever. Furthermore, it takes a wildly variable amount of time to locate, open, and plunder Runeforge, and a great deal more variable time to locate and attack Xin-Shalast.
My personal recommendation for handling the timeline is:
- If your party is moving through the scripted sessions at a fast clip and are rarely stopping to spend time in Sandpoint, avoid giving them a hook they can immediately follow up on until some in-game time has passed. This gives them time to bond with NPCs, handle odd jobs and gigs, and get something back for all their hard work protecting the town.
- If your party is hesitant to move on when they know what they need to do, make your NPCs a little more proactive about contacting the PCs and asking for their help. Aneka Avertin and Ameiko Kaijitsu have been huge driving forces in my game, as they're the locals with the most salient stake in the town that my party cares about. Also highlight, through various means, how the party's work impacts the town and its people - Sandpoint needs them, and that should be apparent throughout the game.
- In general, try giving your party about a month off between books. This gives them plenty of time to craft, develop spells, and re-train, but discourages them from doing something more long-term, like starting a business. It also means the PCs are having more time to develop relationships and build their homes and resources, even if a lot of that is off-screen.