How to Roleplay Followers of Asmodeus and LE Alignment

[UnArcaneElection]

^That wouldn't be unusual on Earth, so no surprise if such laws are found on Golarion.

[Tender Tendrils]

Erk Ander wrote:

Paradozen wrote:

Thrune murdered 100 people to create an artifact, which implies that they did not murder 100 people just because. If Abrogail Thrune is as intelligent as the lore suggests, the laws of Cheliax are arranged in such a way that the creation of this artifact can be prioritized above the lives of 100 citizens of the state, and those lives can be confiscated via execution to create the artifact competely lawfully.

The difference, in my mind, between CE and LE rulers is that CE rulers will kill people and then pass the justification that says they are fine doing so, while LE people have already arranged the law code so make every instance of murder they need to commit perfectly lawful ahead of time.

This and especially the last paragraph is something I can agree on. It still begs the question what was legal justification. Is Trhune a nation where there is a law that (as you implied) allows the ruler to break other rules in the name of national security ?

As I have said before, historically a lot of rulers didn't need a law to justify doing whatever they wanted, as laws applying to monarchs are actually a fairly recent invention.

In a constitutional monarchy, the monarch is regulated and constrained by laws, and need a legal justification for their actions.

In an absolute monarchy (which was the default until around the time of the Magna Carta, which was literally England's king being forced to change England to a constitutional monarchy, which he then reneged on anyway) you do not need any legal justification as a ruler to do anything - you are the metaphorical (and sometimes literal) earthly avatar of God's will and whatever you say IS the law.

My impression of most of Golarion is that it is more in the absolute monarchies time period than the constitutional one.

[Deadmanwalking]

Tender Tendrils wrote:

My impression of most of Golarion is that it is more in the absolute monarchies time period than the constitutional one.

Golarion rarely has hereditary monarchies at all, at least by the standards of medieval Europe. That said, Cheliax, as the quote in my last post indicates, very much is an absolute dictatorship, with Abrogail Thrune II clearly able to declare people guilty of treason for anything she likes.

[Tender Tendrils]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Tender Tendrils wrote:

My impression of most of Golarion is that it is more in the absolute monarchies time period than the constitutional one.

Golarion rarely has hereditary monarchies at all, at least by the standards of medieval Europe. That said, Cheliax, as the quote in my last post indicates, very much is an absolute dictatorship, with Abrogail Thrune II clearly able to declare people guilty of treason for anything she likes.

A monarchy doesn't have to be hereditary to be an absolute monarchy (hereditary monarchy is just a means of succession, both constitutional and absolute monarchies can be hereditary or use other means).

- interestingly, we still have 7 absolute monarchies in the real world, one of which is actually purely elective (being Vatican City, which is an absolute monarchy where the monarch is elected by a conclave of powerful individuals).

[UnArcaneElection]

^ . . . and several more nations that have absolute dictators for practical purposes, even when not called monarchs.

[Deadmanwalking]

Tender Tendrils wrote:

A monarchy doesn't have to be hereditary to be an absolute monarchy (hereditary monarchy is just a means of succession, both constitutional and absolute monarchies can be hereditary or use other means).

Fair enough. It's not super heavy on monarchies at all, though I'll admit there are more of them than there are hereditary ones. Most are not absolute, either, though Cheliax certainly is.

[Tim Schneider 908]

The distinction I drew which helped me square this in my head is that anyone can worship (non-mechanical term) Asmodeus. The important question is... who does Asmodeus grant his divine magic to? And in this case, it's only the Lawful Evil.

So plenty of people in Cheliax would say they worship Asmodeus, either believing it or just afraid to say otherwise or thinking it'll make their life easier if they're seen as a loyal worshipper... and they probably align to some of this tenants and edicts and anathemas, but just like real life they're likely not perfectly adhering & Asmodeus definitely isn't granting them any divine magic.

So what James Jacobs has said holds true for Asmodeus, but it's not necessarily how your character or individual NPC's thinks. You don't need Asmodeus's permission to worship him - unless you want divine spells or you pop down to hell you're unlikely to find out that he doesn't consider you a valid worshipper (Or at least that's how I see it :) ).

[MidsouthGuy]

Don't worry too much about doing alignment "right". There are lots of ways to interpret each alignment, and as long as it feels right to you and your group, you're doing fine.

Also, I think it's important to remember that if you find a rule confusing, distasteful, awkward, complicated, or even just plain think it's stupid, then you can change it with little difficulty. In a home game, it's the GM who makes the rules, not Paizo, not James Jacobs, not Asmodeus himself. If the GM decides there are deviant alignment Asmodeans in their game, then there are deviant alignment Asmodeans and no one can tell them otherwise. I once had my group encounter a Chaotic Evil Asmodean Cleric. Nobody from Paizo kicked in my door and revoked my GMing license, nor did a Devil show up and chastise me for committing vile heresy.

[UnArcaneElection]

Earlier I wrote:

How to roleplay Lawful Evil: Insurance company boss seems like an excellent introduction.

Linkified for your convenience.

[Devon Northwood]

Erk Ander wrote:

This and especially the last paragraph is something I can agree on. It still begs the question what was legal justification. Is Trhune a nation where there is a law that (as you implied) allows the ruler to break other rules in the name of national security ?

The main problem is that most of us live in a country with democracy and the rule of law. So our idea of the law is shaped by that experience. We see the law as a shield, protecting the citizens against the state.

Freedom of speech protects you from the government trying to silence you.
The criminal justice system protects you from the government arbitrarily arresting you.
Property rights protect you from the government taking your stuff.

Fascist societies work radically different. Fascist law is not meant to protect you from the government, it is meant to protect THE GOVERNMENT from YOU.
Censorship laws protect the government secrets from you.
National security laws protect the governments right to arbitrarily arrest you.
"Lèse-majesté"-laws protect the government against your criticism.

So it would not be Thrunes job to find a reason why they can arrest and kill you, it is your job to find a law saying that they cannot. Because in fascism, the state is explicitly more important than you.

[UnArcaneElection]

Devon Northwood wrote:

Erk Ander wrote:

This and especially the last paragraph is something I can agree on. It still begs the question what was legal justification. Is Trhune a nation where there is a law that (as you implied) allows the ruler to break other rules in the name of national security ?

The main problem is that most of us live in a country with democracy and the rule of law. So our idea of the law is shaped by that experience. We see the law as a shield, protecting the citizens against the state.{. . .}

Depends upon what part of our world you are talking about, and which people within that part, and what time period . . . and the future looks very grim indeed.