Transitioning from exploration mode to encounter mode

[Zapp]

My player has (finally) managed to explain to me how he's reading the rules for when two groups pass close by each other (in exploration mode), and when and how this transitions into encounter mode. Problem is, I can't find where in the rules the basis for this interpretation can be found.

He's arguing that the rules specify three outcomes but not a fourth. Let's simplify to only one creature on each side, side 1 and side 2. Crearures P1 and P2 do whatever exploration action that isn't Avoid Notice. Creatures S1 and S2 uses avoid notice (they either stealth or hide). Creatures P roll P stands for Perception for initiative, creatures S roll S stands for Stealth for initiative.

Outcomes:

1) Creature P1 vs P2. Easy. Both see each other, highest acts first.

2) Creature P1 vs S2. Creature P1 wins - since perception beats stealth, P1 notices S2. Since P1 wasn't trying to hide, S2 spots P1. P1 acts first

3) Creature S1 vs P2. Creature S1 wins - S1 remain hidden/unnoticed/whatever from P2. Since P2 wasn't trying to hide, S1 spots P2. S1 acts first, and if it so chooses, it can do nothing, which means P2 walks on by none the wiser (no encounter).

As just an observation: Stealth is asymetrically better than Perception.

4) Creature S1 vs S2. Creature S1 wins. That S1 remains hidden/unobserved/whatever from S2 is not in doubt. Now my player is arguing S1 sees S2 because his initiative higher.

But can't you argue that since neither used their Perception, that if somebody's stealth is higher than the foe's Perception DC they remain stealthed. And that if both rolled high, they remain mutually stealthed to each other (and likely just pass each oother by = no encounter).

But my player is arguing this case, that both successfully hide/sneak vs each other, cannot happen with the PF2 rules for transitioning from exploration to encounter mode. Someone will always spot the other side. To rule otherwise would be that the parties weren't close enough for an encounter to start.

Now I am lost. Could anyone help out, preferably with rules page references to back up their claims.

My specific, direct question:

Do the rules allow for the dice you roll (perception vs stealth aka initiative) allow for the outcome "neither spotted the other, no encounter after all".

Or can this ONLY happen when the GM decide the two groups did not come into contact with each other, and thus only when no rolls were made.

Thx, Z :)

[Charon Onozuka]

From what I've seen, it seems like the game has mostly done away with opposed roles, with initiative being the primary exception.

If the groups are using stealth for initiative when transitioning from exploration mode to encounter mode, that would imply that they are using the "Avoid Notice" exploration tactic, which says:

Avoid Notice (p479) wrote:

...If you’re Avoiding Notice at the start of an encounter, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check both to determine your initiative and to see if the enemies notice you (based on their Perception DCs, as normal for Sneak, regardless of their initiative check results).

So while your Stealth check in initiative would determine the order of actions in encounter mode, noticing an opponent would still be based off of check result vs. DC as normal. If your stealth beats their Perception DC, they don't notice you. Alternatively if your stealth rolls lower than their Perception DC, they do notice you.

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This would mean that in situation #2, winning initiative with Perception vs Stealth wouldn't automatically mean you notice the creature rolling stealth. The opposed roll only determines character order in encounter mode. For exploration tactics, Avoid Notice explicitly says that the stealth roll is compared to Perception DCs to determine if you are noticed. On the other side, no exploration tactic seems to allow you to make a perception check against a sneaking foe's Stealth DC. The closest would be Search, but that seems to specify you only get a search check against objects or hazards.

Search (p480) wrote:

You Seek meticulously for hidden doors, concealed hazards, and so on. You can usually make an educated guess as to which locations are best to check and move at half speed, but if you want to be thorough and guarantee you checked everything, you need to travel at a Speed of no more than 300 feet per minute, or 150 feet per minute to ensure you check everything before you walk into it. You can always move more slowly while Searching to cover the area more thoroughly, and the Expeditious Search feat increases these maximum Speeds. If you come across a secret door, item, or hazard while Searching, the GM will attempt a free secret check to Seek to see if you notice the hidden object or hazard. In locations with many objects to search, you have to stop and spend significantly longer to search thoroughly.

As a result, winning initiative with Perception in situation #2 could give you the first chance to act in encounter mode - but if their Stealth roll was higher than your Perception DC, you'd spend the first round failing to notice anything going on and essentially waste your good roll (which could also potentially allow the sneaking character to avoid the encounter by just letting the other character walk by).

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For situation #4, I'd believe you are correct in saying that two groups could roll stealth as initiative only to find that they both rolled too well for either to be spotted. If you wanted to nitpick, encounter mode could have technically started when initiative was rolled, but then ended before the first round could start. Since neither group could notice the other, it would count as "some other event of circumstance" ending encounter mode and returning to exploration mode, as per the following rules.

"Encounter Mode (p468) wrote:

Step 4: End the Encounter

When your foes are defeated, some sort of truce is reached, or some other event or circumstance ends the combat, the encounter is over. You and the other participants no longer follow the initiative order, and a more free-form style of play resumes, with the game typically moving into exploration mode. Sometimes at the end of an encounter, the GM will award Experience Points to the party or you’ll find treasure to divvy up.

Personally, in-game I'd simplify this and just consider the initiative roll off as essentially being an "event" occurring during exploration mode. Since neither group noticed the other, encounter mode would never fully start and exploration mode would just continue as normal.

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As for your player's argument... I'd ask him to point to where in the rules encounter mode says anything about noticing something. The only real difference between the modes is how closely the GM+Players are tracking the passage of time in relation to what the PCs/NPCs are doing. Encounter mode isn't just for combat, but rather for any situation where time needs to be tracked on a round-by-round basis.

[Zapp]

Thank you.

We had both (I guess) assumed that if your Perception-based initiative beat my Stealth-based initiative, not only do you act first, but you also spot everyone*.

*) Unless you only beat my initiative score by a few points and I got a higher bonus than that (due to circumstance, distance or whatever)

So the transition rules do accommodate "everybody hides from each other scenario". Obviously it won't come up that often (and certainly not as soon as one member of each side rolls for Initiative using Perception), but still good.

Thx!