Small champion on medium mount doesn't really work?

[Gaterie]

So you agree with the OP? Medium mount can't carry small characters because small characters weight more than 3 bulks - especially when they carry 5+ bulk of equipment. Maybe you should have answered to the people who are actually pretending a halfling weights 3 bulk (and not to those explaining it makes no sense)?

Actually, since the bulk of a character is [undefined] in the context of mounted combat, there's no way to know if a mount is encumbered.

[Shisumo]

I have to admit, I'm not sure why anyone is surprised that the 18 Str champion can carry more than the Str +3 pony. I mean, one is literally stronger than the other, just from the basic math.

That doesn't mean you can't make a small champion riding a horse though. You just have to limit their carried gear to 5 Bulk or less. Maybe get a pack horse? That was actually pretty common for medieval knights anyway...

[thenobledrake]

A medium mount can carry a small character because that's the thing that makes sense in the context of playing the game.

Rules exist that support this idea, even though they can be made to look ridiculous if applied without context.

[Gaterie]

So I guess you can explain the rules. I'm playing a goblin fighter named Master, carrying 8.5 bulk of stuff, and mounted on a pony named Blaster wearing half-plate, tack, and saddlebags.

What can I put in the saddlebags before my mount becomes encumbered?

NB: explain the exact rules you're using for this computation; I want to be able to apply it to an exotic mount (Blaster isn't exactly a pony).

[Aservan]

thenobledrake wrote:

A medium mount can carry a small character because that's the thing that makes sense in the context of playing the game.

Rules exist that support this idea, even though they can be made to look ridiculous if applied without context.

Do you realize you're arguing that the rules should be ignored in favor of common sense? Most folks here are arguing the same thing. The rules as written don't make sense, so for now we're better off ignoring them.

This really sucks for people who need PFS to get in a game, but won't matter much to those of us with regular game nights.

[thenobledrake]

Gaterie, you're already encumbering your mount, and that's just fine. Encumbered isn't really that big of a penalty.

Aservan, no. I am arguing the rules should be applied with common sense. The rules as written do make sense - at least as much sense as any RPGs "how much can I carry?" rules have ever made.

[Gaterie]

NB: explain the exact rules you're using for this computation; I want to be able to apply it to an exotic mount (Blaster isn't exactly a pony).

[thenobledrake]

"The exact rules" like there is some tricky reference point not in the plainly-labeled Carrying and Using Items section that is relied upon to make things work.

[Saros Palanthios]

graystone wrote:

The only thing is that this doesn't apply for anything else: holding 10 loose shortswords in your arms and carrying 10 carefully packed shortswords in your backpack are the same bulk.

Says who? Not the rules. The Bulk values given in the book *assume* that your gear is reasonably well-packed and secured on your character's person-- and expect the GM to make adjustments for unusual circumstances (like trying to carry your gear loose in your arms instead).

graystone wrote:

This leads you to a situation where it's much easier to pack down a halfling with as much equipment [say 20 bulk in backpacks, pouches, sacks, ect] and then put said halfling in a backpack and carry them because the halfling is only 3 bulk and backpacks can hold 4... Small creatures have become better than bags of holding!

Again, the PF2 rules assume that the players in general and the GM in particular are capable of applying common sense and making judgement calls on what's reasonable. Rather than try to construct a simulationist rule system that's watertight and powergamer-proof (which would be a fool's errand anyway), they instead set out guidelines and then empower the GM to shut down attempts to subvert the game with technicalities like what you described.

This design approach shows up everywhere, not just in the Bulk rules-- the whole PF2 system was deliberately designed this way, to quash the rule-lawyering and loophole-exploitation that was so common in PF1.

[Gaterie]

thenobledrake wrote:

"The exact rules" like there is some tricky reference point not in the plainly-labeled Carrying and Using Items section that is relied upon to make things work.

This not not a trick question, I just want to know the rule you used to decide my mount is encumbered.

More precisely, I want to know what I have to remove from my stuff so my pony is not encumbered anymore, and I want to know what he can carry before he's encumbered - it would be be very clumsy to ask on the forum and wait for your answer each time i pick up a new item during play, therefore i want to understand the rules beforehand; and I'd like to show the rules to my DM.

[thenobledrake]

How do you figure out if your character is encumbered? Your mount uses the same rules.

[Gaterie]

I didn't find the rule giving the bulk of a halfling.

There's a rule when my pony has to carry me off the battlefield (oddly enough, my mount isn't encumbered in this case - contrary to your saying), but I want it to carry me on the battlefield as well.

Spoiler:

Right now, the encumbrance status of my mount change from round to round, depending on where we moved last time - he's encumbered when we go into melee and not encumbered when we go off melee. I think it's not very convenient, it would be easier if my pony always had the same status instead of a status depending on context.

[Loreguard]

I haven't quite gotten a complete handle/feel for all the ramifications for bulk at different sizes. However, I think that there are rules in place that likely make much of a large mount holding a medium rider into a reasonable facsimile of workable. But this is just a first glance.

Where I think we run into issues was when they decided to simplify and say small and medium sizes while different size tiers, have no differences between them. This creates interactions between small riders and medium mounts really weird.

Honestly, I wish we could just treat them as different sizes and have items made for each of those two sizes cost the same.

Have small creatures calculate bulk according to small bulk, (but carrying a medium object would be higher bulk) Medium creatures would calculate bulk as medium, and items made for a smaller size would get treated smaller.

It would seem to correct most of the issues, even if you didn't change the damage for small weapons as smaller, just for simplification. That would seem to be a simpler way of handling it than saying there is no applicable difference in size or weight between a 6foot sword and a 3foot sword held by a halfling. [ok, technically, the halfling is simply easily spinning the six foot sword, but it still just seems off]

[Gaterie]

up.

I still need to know how the encumbrance of a mount is computed.