Summoner Questions: Help a novice of this class out.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Right, I have a horrible feeling I might have created a 'ghost thread' by accident. If I have, my apologies.

Right, onto the question at hand. My homebrew has been put on the back-burner after aforementioned tension led to one person, who will not be named and is now no longer welcome in any of our homes or games, ran a magnet over my portable hard-drive which contained the combined data of nearly three years of gaming after being told her Paladin was being Lawful Stupid when she coup-de-graced the Party Necromancer after he willingly destroyed his Undead to stop the adventure from being derailed by her constant whining at the table, and as such the result of three months of trying to create this world, the races and the fluff'n'crunch are now gone.

Thus we're starting a small adventure, now cut down to five players and a DM in Faerun, of all places. Weird-ass place for Pathfinder, but the DM prefers the campaign modules because she knows it like the back of her palm and it's a easy 'place' for all of us to sink our characters into.

We've got a Barbarian 'tank' (angry, angry little Dwarf with a big axe), our Oracle 'Healer' (trippy little Gnome), our Fighter/Rogue 'ranged dps'(Dwarf building upon a high dexterity build using Heavy Repeating Crossbow and that feat, the name escapes me, of being able to sneak-attack at 60 feet via a Crossbow), our blasting-happy Evoker Wizard (Gnome with Conjuration and Necromancy as prohibited schools) This left me with the unenviable 'fifth wheel' slot to fill, given that the others are quite set on their existing characters, so rather than make another Wizard or another stock-standard class and risk burn-out, I've decided to throw my hat into the ring as a Summoner (beta-test version). Here he is, as he stands now:

Half-Orc (male) Summoner:

Rolls:
1) 1,3,3 6 (remove the 1) 12
2) 1,6,5,3 (remove the 1) 14
3) 6,3,1,3 (remove the 1) 12
4) 6,4,2,4 (remove the 2) 14
5) 6,5,1,1 (remove the 1) 12
6) 2,5,6,6 (Remove the 2) 17

Stats:
Strength) 12
Dexterity) 14
Constitution) 14 (+2 racial bonus +12)
Intelligence) 14
Wisdom) 12
Charisma) 17

Take ‘Bonus Skill’ for Favoured Class (Summoner), so a total of +5 skill points per level.
Craft (Carpenty) +6, Knowledge (Arcana) +6, Knowledge (Planes)+6, Linquistics (Undercommon) +6, Spellcraft +6.
Will take Diplomacy (Cross-class), Heal (Cross-class) and Ride (Class) skills at a later date.

Hitpoints : 8+2= 10 hitpoints at 1st level. Saves are Fort +2, Reflex +2, Will +3.
(Assuming start off with the same starting gold as a Bard, 105 gold.)
(Battle Equipment) Longspear, Heavy Mace, Dagger, Sling and 20 bullets, Studded Leather Armor (Adventuring gear) Backpack, Bedroll, Winter Blanket, 10 pieces of chalk, Flint and Steel, Small Steel Mirror, 3 belt pouches, 50 foot of hemp rope, 5 days of trail rations, 2 waterskins, Tent, Artisan’s Tools (Carpentry), 1 Artisan’s Outfit, 1 Explorer’s Outfit, 1 Scholar’s Outfit.
Remaining Coins: 12 Gold coins, 39 Silver coins, 170 Copper coins (Carries the Gold coins and the bulk of the Silver wrapped up in the bottom of his Backpack, carries the remaining silver and copper in one of his belt-pouches to avoid getting pick-pocketed).

Spells: (bonus 1st level spell due to high charisma)
Cantrips: Guidance, Detect Magic, Message, Mending.
1st level Spells: Mage Armor, Identify.

Prepared spells: 1st level: Mage Armor, Indentify.

Eidolon: Quadruped:
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 40 ft. AC 18 (Flat-footed 14, touch 14) +4 natural armor; Saves Fort (+3), Ref (+4), Will (+0), Attack Bite (1d8+3), Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11, Free Evolutions bite, limbs (legs) (2). Evolutions: Bite, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Damage (Bite).

Appearance: A large, barrel-chested, stub-tailed mongrel dog.

Eventually I am intending to become the 'backup face' for the party in case our Fighter/Rogue gets pulled away or thrown in jail, and additional healing via the Heal Skill is always handy. The Eidolon will eventually resemble a Basilisk with six legs, the above evolutions plus Burrow, Climb, Damage Reduction, Fast Healing, Gills, Large, Poison, Swim, Tail, Tail Slap, Trample, Tremorsense Evolutions, to create a minion that can go into just about any environment. Rather than many attacks, I intend to focus on just the Bite and Tail Slap abilities, probably heading for the Reach and Push for the Tail Slap, Magic Attacks and Claws just to take advantage of the number of attacks available. I believe there was a feat that allowed certain types or sub-types to make additional attacks with natural weapons, but really I'm aiming for the Eidolon to be less of a multiple-attack beast and more one or two strong, reliable attacks that will allow it to help the tank in flanking and in the worst case scenario, be a meat-shield between the fragile casters and the enemy.


HalfOrcHeavyMetal wrote:


Spells: (bonus 1st level spell due to high charisma)
Cantrips: Guidance, Detect Magic, Message, Mending.
1st level Spells: Mage Armor, Identify.

Prepared spells: 1st level: Mage Armor, Indentify.

Eidolon: Quadruped:
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 40 ft. AC 18 (Flat-footed 14, touch 14) +4 natural armor; Saves Fort (+3), Ref (+4), Will (+0), Attack Bite (1d8+3), Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11, Free Evolutions bite, limbs (legs) (2). Evolutions: Bite, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Damage (Bite).

Appearance: A large, barrel-chested, stub-tailed mongrel dog.

Summoners are spontaneous casters, they dont get bonus spells known for high casting stat (though maybe you mean a bonus spell per day?), and they dont prepare spells.

I also recommend a different spell known then mage armor. It wont be long before you can afford a chain shirt, which basically makes mage armor pointless. And given you spell selection is slow to grow, and slow to change, something like grease is a much better choice (in my opinion ofcourse) in addition why did you choose identify? Again you have a very small selection of spells, is identify really something you are going to need all the time? Just keep your spellcraft skill high and you should be ok most of the time. I think you would be better off with a buff for your eidolon like enlarge person, or magic fang.

Under evolutions since you have a quadraped i think you are better off giving it claws instead of improving the bite with another point into the bite evolution. But i guess since you seem to wont to stick to bite and tail slap its up to you. One of the biggest assets of the quadraped eidolon is you can get pounce eventually which makes having max attacks a good idea.


Yeah, since you have a wizard, there's even less reason to learn identify and mage armor. If your wizard knows mage armor he can cast it on you.

I think you'll need a disguise check to pass your eidolon off as a dog. Specifically this part of the rules:

The eidolon’s physical appearance is up to the
summoner, but it always appears as some sort of
fantastical creature. This control is not fine enough
to make the eidolon appear like a specific creature.

Your eidolon can be vaguely dog shaped, but no one will mistake it for one without some disguise work.

Grand Lodge

I think the Mage Armor is likely for the Eidolon. They can't wear armor, but can benefit from Mage Armor.

I personally would juggle your stats a bit to move your 17 to strength. With the equivalent of Bard's progression, your spells are never going to have impressive save DCs, so you might as well just go with the minimum charisma you need to get your spells and focus on buffing and utility spells.

With that said, I'm a fan of Enlarge Person since your Share Spells ability will let you cast it on your Eidolon.

Also, I highly recommend looking over the teamwork feats. There are several of them that are ideal for the summoner and his pet.


Thanks guys. Since this is my first real encounter with the class, this is a great help to me.

@Kolokotroni: Yeah, sorry about the way I put the wording in regards to the spells. I meant 'Spells Per Day', not 'Spells Prepared'. Apologies. I did look at Grease as a viable alternative, or maybe even going for a buffing spell like Magic Fang or Endure Elements, but since the Party will be lacking a High AC tank for the early levels (Barbarian will not be going any heavier thank Breastplate and Heavy Steel Shield in terms of mundane armor, and our Fighter/Rogue hybrid will be wearing a Chain shirt at best.) being able to turn around and hit the Eidolon with a Mage Armor to boost it to AC22 would have been a god-send for the tougher fights.

Going back and re-reading the PDF (god my eyes are burning. small text is critting my eyes for ungodly amounts of fire damage...) to make sure I haven't mis-read the rules. Again. blargh. Thank you. Share Spells class ability.

"A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells
normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells."

Blargh. Perhaps Magic Fang and Enlarge Person, just to piss the DM off with a giant Worg-like thing at first level.

@TLO3: Reason I'm going with Identify is our Wizard is an Evocation fanatic who has decided to make Conjuration one of her prohibited schools to challenge herself since most of the time nobody has the guts to drop that School, or in Pathfinder, put it on the back-burner. If she's not blowing something up with Concussive Fireballs, she's melting it with Acid Darts or Disintergrating it and identifying magical items is not high on her list of priority unless it's a caster item with an Evocation aura. I was trying to make my Summoner something of an archeologist-archetype with an Eidolon as a 'dog's body' to help him out.

I also intend to stock up on wands, scrolls and the like of the spells on my spell-list. Looking at the list, the Summoner has some of the better low-to-mid level buffing spells available to Arcane Casters, and a Rod of Extend Spell can let me use a Mass-Something Spell to give the party that bit of extra hit-points or dexterity bonus to AC to get them through the next fight or two. Not a lot of blasty spells, but then that defeats the purpose of the Class, and I prefer to be a buffing caster, even as a Sorcerer, than a face-melter or a G.O.D.

Humm ... perhaps make it a Worg or a Dire Wolf until I can start making the Eidolon a bit more reptilian? Again, thank you guys.

Edit: Because I really shouldn't be posting at 2:30 in the morning with a head-cold.


I didnt think about applying mage armor to your eidolon, I still think at low levels you are better off grabbing a wand of it, but if you want it go for it.

Even if you are concerned that the wizard wont be identifying items, You have precious few spells per day are you really going to use one to just boost your spellcraft check? Remember you only need detect magic to identify magic items, the identify spell just gives you a boost to your spellcraft check.

And you are right, share spells lets you cast things like enlarge person or magic fang on your eidolon despite it not being a normally legal target because of it's type.


I agree with Gjorbjond, Put the 17 into strength, move stats around to get a 14 in Cha, also Use Magic Device, and you can get wand of identfy. This way you wouldnt have to use a spell known on something like that. Also UMD will give you alot more versatility.


Kolokotroni wrote:


Even if you are concerned that the wizard wont be identifying items, You have precious few spells per day are you really going to use one to just boost your spellcraft check? Remember you only need detect magic to identify magic items, the identify spell just gives you a boost to your spellcraft check.

Mmmm, there is that, isn't there? So long as I keep Spellcraft maxed I should be in the clear, and nothing is stopping me grabbing a pair of goggles with the right spells embedded to make the guesswork of what the pitch-black Greatsword that whispers about devouring souls does.

So, Mage Armor and Magic Fang to give ye olde beasteh a bit of grunt for the big fighhts. At higher levels (say level 5) get Protection From (Insert Alignment Here) and Expeditious Retreat to give the Eidolon a bit of a speed boost in case of a fleeing enemy. 70 feet per round for 5 minutes? Oh yeah.

For the 2nd level spells, probably go with Barkskin, Bull's Strength and Wind Wall with an eye out for Blur.

As to why not improve my Strength score, I was aiming to get 18 Charisma without magical enhancements foor an additional spell per day of levels 1-4 and then work on increasing my Strength Score with the rest of my Ability Score Enhancements, meaning by 20th level I'd have 16 Strength without magical enhancements. Naturally a Belt of Physical Perfection is in order for that, but since I am limited to either all simple weapons or a Greataxe/Falchion, I think I'll keep my hands on the Longspear for stabbing at things out of squishing range and perhaps work my way up to a nice brutal Greataxe, since I've just recently learned my beloved Keen Vorpal Falchion isn't worth a damn now.

In regards to the Eidolon and Summon sharing item slots, would it be a waste to put Bracers of Armor onto the Eidolon? I can't see how giving it +8 armor towards the end of the game can be a bad thing, meaning I can swap out Mage Armor for something a bit more useful, like Grease or maybe even Jump and save Bark Skin for our Barbarian Tank. Also considering slapping a Ring of Counterspells with Dismissal cast into it for the inevitable "DM needs the beastie to go right now" scenario.

Naturally, keep the 'vital' slots, gloves and gauntlets, belts and necklaces, open for myself, but I am thinking about how I can further enhance the Eidolon without crippling my own defensive and offensive capacity.


HalfOrcHeavyMetal wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:


Even if you are concerned that the wizard wont be identifying items, You have precious few spells per day are you really going to use one to just boost your spellcraft check? Remember you only need detect magic to identify magic items, the identify spell just gives you a boost to your spellcraft check.

Mmmm, there is that, isn't there? So long as I keep Spellcraft maxed I should be in the clear, and nothing is stopping me grabbing a pair of goggles with the right spells embedded to make the guesswork of what the pitch-black Greatsword that whispers about devouring souls does.

So, Mage Armor and Magic Fang to give ye olde beasteh a bit of grunt for the big fighhts. At higher levels (say level 5) get Protection From (Insert Alignment Here) and Expeditious Retreat to give the Eidolon a bit of a speed boost in case of a fleeing enemy. 70 feet per round for 5 minutes? Oh yeah.

For the 2nd level spells, probably go with Barkskin, Bull's Strength and Wind Wall with an eye out for Blur.

As to why not improve my Strength score, I was aiming to get 18 Charisma without magical enhancements foor an additional spell per day of levels 1-4 and then work on increasing my Strength Score with the rest of my Ability Score Enhancements, meaning by 20th level I'd have 16 Strength without magical enhancements. Naturally a Belt of Physical Perfection is in order for that, but since I am limited to either all simple weapons or a Greataxe/Falchion, I think I'll keep my hands on the Longspear for stabbing at things out of squishing range and perhaps work my way up to a nice brutal Greataxe, since I've just recently learned my beloved Keen Vorpal Falchion isn't worth a damn now.

In regards to the Eidolon and Summon sharing item slots, would it be a waste to put Bracers of Armor onto the Eidolon? I can't see how giving it +8 armor towards the end of the game can be a bad thing, meaning I can swap out Mage Armor for something a bit more useful, like Grease or maybe even Jump and save Bark...

I see alot of people going for bracers of armor for eidolons eventually. It makes sense and can be an excellent boost considering they already will have a good AC from natural armor.


Eidolon at 5th level:

Eidolon: Quadruped:
Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 50 ft. HP 37 (5d10 HD). AC 25 (Flat-footed 22 touch 13) +6 natural armor; Saves Fort (+7), Ref (+6), Will (+3), Attack Bite (1d8+4) and/or Tail Slap (1d6+1), Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11, Skills Climb +9, Perception +7, Stealth +9, Swim +9, Feats Iron Will and Great Fortitude, Free Evolutions bite, limbs (legs) (2). Evolutions: Bite, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Damage (Bite), Limbs (legs), Tail, Tailslap.

Eidolon at 10th level:

Eidolon: Quadruped:
Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 50 ft, Climb 50 feet, Swim 50 feet.
HP 56 (8d10 HD). AC 30 (Flat-footed 26, touch 14) +10 natural armor; Saves Fort (+7), Ref (+10), Will (+4), Attack Bite (2d6+3) and/or Tail Slap (1d6+1), Ability Scores Str 18, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11, Skills Climb +13, Perception +11, Stealth +13, Swim +13, Feats Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Improved Toughness and Improved Natural Attack (Bite), Free Evolutions bite, limbs (legs) (2). Evolutions: Bite, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Damage (Bite), Limbs (legs), Tail, Tailslap, Push (Tail Slap), Trample, Venom, Swim and Climb.

Eidolon at 15th level:

Eidolon: Quadruped:
Statistics: Size Large; Speed 50 ft, Climb 50 ft, Swim 50 ft.
HP 151 (12d10 HD). AC 30 (Flat-footed 26, touch 14) +16 natural armor; Saves Fort (+7), Ref (+6), Will (+3), Attack Bite (3d6+9) and/or Tail Slap (1d8+4), Ability Scores Str 28, Dex 18, Con 17, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11, Skills Climb +20, Escape Artist +12, Perception +19, Stealth +12, Swim +20, Feats Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Improved Toughness, Improved Natural Attack (Bite), Alertness and Critical Focus, Free Evolutions bite, limbs (legs) (2). Evolutions: Bite, Improved Natural Armor(2), Gills, Improved Damage (Bite), Limbs (legs), Tail, Tailslap, Push (Tail Slap), Trample, Venom, Swim, Climb, Large.

As we get to the 'end' of the Eidolon, this Salamander version has a large health-pool, can swim, climb and run very fast, is all but impossible to dislodge while climbing and swimming but is still rather clumsy on land (no Acrobatics) and it's bite attack is quite vicious, and the tail, while a respectable 1d8+4 damage, enough to make a Paladin envious, is mostly used to push uppity melee away from the casters.


I really dont think you need iron will and great fortitude. I know your eidolon's saves wont be amazing, but I think you are better off boosting that with a cloak of resistance. You would be better served using those feats for combat IE power attack or weapon focus.


Kolokotroni wrote:
I really dont think you need iron will and great fortitude. I know your eidolon's saves wont be amazing, but I think you are better off boosting that with a cloak of resistance. You would be better served using those feats for combat IE power attack or weapon focus.

I don't know. I think iron will at least might be worth the feat to increase banish resistance as high as possible.


TLO3 wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
I really dont think you need iron will and great fortitude. I know your eidolon's saves wont be amazing, but I think you are better off boosting that with a cloak of resistance. You would be better served using those feats for combat IE power attack or weapon focus.
I don't know. I think iron will at least might be worth the feat to increase banish resistance as high as possible.

Thing is, I was going to save the amazing Saves for me. The Eidolon is, and I apologise to the people who will no doubt rage at this, a walking shield for the casters. This thing is to have as high as natural saves as I can get it, rely upon one or two strong attacks (the bite, with the venom, is lethal to most foes I've crunched against, but like everything there are weaknesses, ie undead, druids, monks, bleh.) and is able to go just about anywhere to put it's high AC between the casters (or hell, the entire party in a pinch!) and AoE damage or large numbers of weak enemies.

The other thing, and this makes me rage, is that I have no doubt in my mind the DM will have BBEGs who are going to look at this thing, think "Okay, that thing is a key to their defensive strategies, time to get rid of it" and throw thousands of gold's worth of Dismissal and Banishment at it to wipe the party out. I need that Will Save as high as it can get. I'm half tempted to toss Swim and Climb out on their collective ass with the level of strength I am getting at level 15 and perhaps even the natural armor bonuses, maybe NOT take Great Fortitude and instead go for the Spell Resistance Evolution and Improved Great Will in the hopes of completely blocking off such a fate.


HalfOrcHeavyMetal wrote:


Strength) 12
Dexterity) 14
Constitution) 14 (+2 racial bonus +12)
Intelligence) 14
Wisdom) 12
Charisma) 17

I'd go with the following:

STR 12
INT 14
WIS 12
DEX 12
CON 14
CHA 19 (17+2 racial)

You loose 2DEX for 2CHA which I think is a reasonable trade.

Your party has only one other character that is focused on CHA, and taking a number of the face skills (diplomacy, etc) could be helpful.

Are you allowed traits? If so make bluff & diplomacy class skills as well as get a +1 to each.

HalfOrcHeavyMetal wrote:


Take ‘Bonus Skill’ for Favoured Class (Summoner), so a total of +5 skill points per level.
Craft (Carpenty) +6, Knowledge (Arcana) +6, Knowledge (Planes)+6, Linquistics (Undercommon) +6, Spellcraft +6.
Will take Diplomacy (Cross-class), Heal (Cross-class) and Ride (Class) skills at a later date.

I would forgo the knowledges and let the party wizard take them. Instead I'd start with a rank in handle animal (as fiendish/celestial critters no longer have an increased INT score).

I'd go with Spellcraft, UMD, Handle Animal, Diplomacy & Bluff. The following levels advance all but take linguistics instead of handle animal. When your UMD gets high stop advancing it in lieu of other skills.

HalfOrcHeavyMetal wrote:


Spells: (bonus 1st level spell due to high charisma)
Cantrips: Guidance, Detect Magic, Message, Mending.
1st level Spells: Mage Armor, Identify.

I'd go with Enlarge Person and Grease to start with.. the former goes to both the eidolon and your barbarian, the later when you want something with some direct offense (and if you are going with Spellfocus: Conjuration to get you Augment Summoning, it's something to apply it towards).

Personally I think I'd go with a halfling summoner over a halforc, with stats (10, 14, 12, 16, 12, 19) and throw in Stealth to your skills.

But then I tend to favor a more support oriented summoner than trying to make a middling combatant out of one.

-James


Valid points, but my problem is that we're rolling an oddball broup. Our Wizard is focused on blasting. Our Rogue is a ranged specialist with an aim for bluff and stealth to insane levels to snipe, hide and carry on in the same vein until the combat is over. Melee Combat is inevitable with a Barbarian 'tank', so I'm throwing my hat into the ring as a Summoner because A) never played this class before so it'll be new, which will be a nice change after 16 g*~+##n years of full-attacking and B) the concept of being a support character with a pet that can make a Druid grind their teeth in jealous rage appeals to me.

No joy on the traits front, and given the low AC of my Summoner having a decent Dexterity score could mean the difference between dodging a killing blow or dying like a chicken on the chopping block.

To UMD, never been a big fan of this skill. Great for Rogues and the occasional Bard, but really having to roll every single round for the chance the wand backfires spectacularly and the Stoneskin charges end up exploding and doing more damage than the Minotaur would? Bleh. On the other hand, being able to run around with a Staff of Healing at the ready in case the Oracle takes a Gargantuan +5 Unholy Greatclub to the face is always handy and would help keep the Summoner viable. Still, we have a Oracle (Divine caster focusing on his healing and defensive spells), a Bard (took some Rogue abilities but, hey, still has all the normal spells) and myself, the Summoner (With still more buffing spells plus some nice defensive spells as well. Walls of Wind, Fire and Ice plus a couple of Cloud Spells to help control the battlefield and keep things within range of the Eidolon.) so I fear we're pretty much caught up on everything as we have a Evocation-happy Wizard. And I've seen her proto-Character Sheet. Maxing out her crafting skills for magical rings, staffs and rods and only touching the Knowledge Skills in Arcana and Engineering, and the latter only so she can build more freaking golemns. I swear she's got a fetish for them.

I do like the concept of the Grease spell to create an area where the enemy loses their balance and our Rogue can pick them off while they're flat-footed. I dislike the concept of a Halfling because I just don't like playing small races. Dwarves, yes. Gnomes and Halflings, no. Just ... that 'little guy' predjudice grates on me and my Small-size characters end up going homicidal on people after a few sessions.


HalfOrcHeavyMetal wrote:

No joy on the traits front, and given the low AC of my Summoner having a decent Dexterity score could mean the difference between dodging a killing blow or dying like a chicken on the chopping block.

To UMD, never been a big fan of this skill.

Well prejudice against halflings aside, a hiding support character is a lot stronger imho.

Also UMD seems perfectly designed for such a character as a backup healer, etc.

I missed where you said your party had a bard, so forgive the diplomacy/bluff suggestions.

-James


HalfOrcHeavyMetal wrote:
To UMD, never been a big fan of this skill. Great for Rogues and the occasional Bard, but really having to roll every single round for the chance the wand backfires spectacularly and the Stoneskin charges end up exploding and doing more damage than the Minotaur would? Bleh.

Just FYI, mishaps only happen if you miss your DC by ten or more. An issue at level one, yes, but very rare once you gain a few levels. And IF a mishap DOES cause damage (no guarantee it would), its only 2d6. A minotaur does 3d6+6 ... big difference :P

I just bring this up because Im currently running a game with a summoner who has UMD and is using it to wonderful effect (level 5)

The Exchange

Let me second James advice.

Max the charisma, both for umd and diplomacy. You are completely forgetting about your summon spell ability; which you will be wanting maximum free uses of per day.

Seriously look at aug summoning. Although clear it with your ref first as there is table variation on whether the feat can be applied to a sla.


cp wrote:

Let me second James advice.

Max the charisma, both for umd and diplomacy. You are completely forgetting about your summon spell ability; which you will be wanting maximum free uses of per day.

Seriously look at aug summoning. Although clear it with your ref first as there is table variation on whether the feat can be applied to a sla.

There might be table confusion on whether or not it should be applied, but it is a question of the move from 3.5 to pathfinder.

In pathfinder SLA benefit from spell focus and other feats just as much as spells do.

-James


In regards to the SLA Summon Monster ability of the Summoner, DM has given a quick house-rule that Spell Focus will NOT apply to Spell-Like Abilities simply to avoid game-breaking via Rod of Extension (is that the name of the 24 hour buff spell, I forget the exact wording. bleh.) and packs of Elder Elementals or, Gods forbid, units of the various Celestial/Infernal/Demonic sorts to wafflestomp 90% of the game's combatants. I'm there to be part of the world, not to play 'who can rules-lawyer better', which irks me on a deep and personal level.

I still remember our last Conjurer who, in a fit of pique, had two of those damn rods and summoned a Hound Archon Paladin as a bodyguard and a Musteval Sorcerer to supply the spells for his Prohibited spells. Since the spells would last all g&%$&$n day, the only time we didn't have Slobbery Basset Hound Paladin and Hyperactive Fuzzy Illusionist Sorcerer making the rest of the party want to slit their own wrists was when the Sorcerer let them go back to the Heavens for 8 hours to rest and recuperate on their native plane after the DM rapped him over the knuckles with 'potential slavery issues'.

Also, at one minute per level, rather than one round, that's a rather potent ability, and with the current Charisma level, 3 per day + charisma bonus which = 6-7 times per day without getting any Charisma-boosting items like a combination Circlet of Persuasion/Headband of Alluring Charisma. That means 6+ times per day I can start flinging out
somewhat pitiful creatures at low level, but again it grants the Summoner a highly adaptable creature to fling into combat where it doesn't matter if the creature gets gibbed within a minute or so. Additionally if the DM does decide to use the old House-Rule of players being able to have their own unique and unchangeable list of summonable beasts of the same CR as the Summon Monster Spell level, being able to bust 1d3 Asimar Figthers at 5th level in a pinch would be very, very handy.

I am looking at UMD and considering just getting my Knowledge (arcana) skill up to 10 and leaving it there while I spend a few points into Use Magic Device simply to be a dogs-body teritary caster. Oracle can cast healing spells and buffing spells, Bard can cast arcane healing spells and some of the weirder spells, our Wizard will be a flat-out blaster so being able to pick up any of their spell-completion items and being able to join the party is quite tempting.

So, by 5th level, Skills would be roughly:
Craft (Carpentry) +7, Diplomacy +8, Heal +5, Knowledge (Arcana) +7, Knowledge (Planes)+7, Linquistics (Undercommon, Celestial) +7, Ride +6, Spellcraft +8, Use Magic Device +9.
:with an eye to increast the Craft, Diplomacy, Heal and Ride skills to base-skill rank 10 and pumping the rest of my skill-points into UMD, Spellcraft, Knowledge (Planes), Knowledge (Arcana) and Linquistics, in that order.

This gives me enough Diplomacy to start to hammer out bargains with Outsiders for combat or help in advance via the summon monster SLA or to stop people running my Half-Orc out of town, Craft (Carpentry) so I can make the wands for the others to enchant, maintain my envisioned low-level 'base', which happens to be a trio of gypsy-esque wagons and can make some honest cash in between adventures, Heal is a vastly under-rated skill, being able to help the badly injured recoup more hit-points per day can be a godsend, Knowledge Skills tie in thematically with the Summoner, given the nature of the class, knowing about magical history and researching exactly where the Eidolon comes from is also handy. Linquistics is somewhat of a flavour skill, Ride is always handy to have to a tolerable level, Spellcraft will be heavily focused upon for item identification purposes and Use Magic Device is still a risky proposition at this level, since most DCs start at DC 20 at best, but at low-level being able potentially turn around and cast a Mass Light Cure Wounds on the party after a particularly vicious trap can be a good way to keep yourself in the good-books.


Hum, doing some theory-crafting, maybe drop stealth as one of the Eidolon's Class Skills and go for Acrobatics instead. Just ran it past a simulated 'tripper' and it got torn to shreds.

Eidolon at 10th level:

Eidolon: Quadruped:
Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 50 ft, Climb 50 feet.
HP 56 (8d10 HD). AC 32 (Flat-footed 28, touch 16) +10 natural armor; Saves Fort (+7), Ref (+10), Will (+4), Attack Bite (2d6+3 plus 1d6 acid) and/or Tail Slap (1d6+1 plus 1d6 acid), Ability Scores Str 18, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11, Skills Climb +13, Perception +19 (+8 racial), Acrobatics +13, Swim +13, Feats Iron Will, Imrpoved Iron Will, Improved Toughness and Improved Natural Attack (Bite), Free Evolutions bite, limbs (legs) (2). Evolutions: Bite, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Damage (Bite), Limbs (legs), Tail, Tailslap, Push (Tail Slap), Energy Attack (acid), Venom, Skilled (Perception) and Climb.

Equipment: +2 Bracers of Armor 4,ooo gold, Exotic Pack Saddle 15 gold.

Eidolon is a bit more useful now, does a bit more damage in combat thanks to the Acid evolution and is much more stable in combat, and has a greater chance to detect enemies than the rest of us would. With the bracers, the Eidolon has much higher AC and the Pack Saddle allows it to function as a pack mule in addition to a tolerable melee combatant.


HalfOrcHeavyMetal wrote:
In regards to the SLA Summon Monster ability of the Summoner, DM has given a quick house-rule that Spell Focus will NOT apply to Spell-Like Abilities simply to avoid game-breaking via Rod of Extension

There is no rod of extension in pathfinder. There IS rod of lesser/greater extend magic, but that only doubles the duration, not sets it at 24 hours. There's a discussion on this somewhere on the forum, but basically only a summoner or 20th level conjurer can use Summon Monster for longer than max 2 rounds/level.

Also, summoned monsters usually can't really break enemies that well, unless there's a whole army of them. They are generally lower CR than the party and opponents, and a hard opponent will be even higher CR.

EDIT: I'm not saying your DM is doing wrong, especially if you're using a lot of 3.5 materials, but generally I think if a certain item or combo seems overpowered, change the item, not the way the system works.

Grand Lodge

james maissen wrote:

I'd go with the following:

STR 12
INT 14
WIS 12
DEX 12
CON 14
CHA 19 (17+2 racial)

You loose 2DEX for 2CHA which I think is a reasonable trade.

james maissen wrote:

(and if you are going with Spellfocus: Conjuration to get you Augment Summoning, it's something to apply it towards).

I personally think if you're trying to stat your summoner as a primary spell caster, you're setting yourself up to be disappointed. Most of the time combats are going to go:

Round 1: Summon critter and send it and Eidolon into fray.
Round 2: Buff somebody.
Round 3+: Poke enemy with pointy stick.

If you completely neglect your "Poke with pointy stick" ability, you're neglecting 1/3rd of the class.


Gjorbjond wrote:


I personally think if you're trying to stat your summoner as a primary spell caster, you're setting yourself up to be disappointed. Most of the time combats are going to go:
Round 1: Summon critter and send it and Eidolon into fray.
Round 2: Buff somebody.
Round 3+: Poke enemy with pointy stick.

If you completely neglect your "Poke with pointy stick" ability, you're neglecting 1/3rd of the class.

See that's where I disagree. I don't see it as a 3rd of the class, I see it as a 3rd or (more likely) 4th tier option for a summoner.

I don't see gimping your 1st two functions to deliver a mediocre 3rd as you've ranked it.

I think you can deliver more by focusing on support and summoning. Should you need to deliver damage I would suggest that you do so via UMD and attack spells.

I would see the summoner as having plenty to do with making sure he/she has a summon in play, getting in some buffs for the party/eidolon, throwing out a few terrain spells and making an occasional attack spell.

-James

Liberty's Edge

Just to tag on a new question on an old summoner subject:

The summoner can summon a handful of times per day (SLA) and cast the summon monster spell. The feats that allow augment summoning clearly work for the spell but the SLA is my question. I have read threads that support both sides that the feats work for the SLA and ones that say it does not. Can someone be a real pal and point me the the right direction for an official ruling on this?

Thanks!

Liberty's Edge

Dave the Barbarian wrote:

Just to tag on a new question on an old summoner subject:

The summoner can summon a handful of times per day (SLA) and cast the summon monster spell. The feats that allow augment summoning clearly work for the spell but the SLA is my question. I have read threads that support both sides that the feats work for the SLA and ones that say it does not. Can someone be a real pal and point me the the right direction for an official ruling on this?

Thanks!

I don't remember where it was, but the official ruling is that AS works for the SLA of Summon Monster, but it does NOT work for the Eidolon (as it's not a "Summon -" spell or SLA).

Liberty's Edge

Many thanks! That is what I thought I read.

Grand Lodge

james maissen wrote:
See that's where I disagree. I don't see it as a 3rd of the class, I see it as a 3rd or (more likely) 4th tier option for a summoner.

By 20th level, you'll have a little more than half the spells of a sorcerer, the saves on your highest level spells will be 4 less than an equivalent sorcerer, and you'll have a much more limited spell list. As a caster, you're about 2/3 of a sorcerer.

On the other hand, you have the same BAB and HP of the Rogue, Cleric, and Bard, which are pretty much expected to get into melee.

Given how the new concentration rules plus the Step Up feat make it much easier for a melee guy to severely hinder spellcasting, I think it would be unwise to ignore the melee component of the class.

Scarab Sages

Given that you are wanting to use the eidolon as a blocker:
1) Add the Reach evolution to at least one of his attacks. It should surprise an enemy that thinks he can skirt around the beast to get to the caster.
2) Add the Combat Reflexes feat. A second and third AoO is useful for a blocker with unexpected reach.
3) Grab the Expeditious Retreat spell early. Dropping that on the eidolon the first round before it charges off gives it a 80' move for the duration of the combat. It can overtake most opponents easily in a moving battle, and can reposition more easily as a blocker. Take care in the repositioning so the opponent has to move at least 10' while approaching (losing full round attacks), and through the reach field, thereby provoking one of your many attacks of opportunities.

Grand Lodge

Elyza wrote:
1) Add the Reach evolution to at least one of his attacks. It should surprise an enemy that thinks he can skirt around the beast to get to the caster.

An added bonus to the Reach evolution is that the Shield Ally and Greater Shield Ally work on allies in the eidolon's reach. Increase the reach, and it can protect more allies.


HalfOrcHeavyMetal wrote:


Equipment: +2 Bracers of Armor 4,ooo gold, Exotic Pack Saddle 15 gold.

Eidolon is a bit more useful now, does a bit more damage in combat thanks to the Acid evolution and is much more stable in combat, and has a greater chance to detect enemies than the rest of us would. With the bracers, the Eidolon has much higher AC and the Pack Saddle allows it to function as a pack mule in addition to a tolerable melee combatant.

Just be advised that eidolons cannnot be ridden by default. It has been announced that the full release will include a 2 point evolution that will allow you to ride it.


Yeah, I figured that it would be too good to be true to have a all-in-one animal companion.

Thing is, the DM started the game ... and railroaded me into a Humanoid Eidolon. Seems that, since Summoners aren't exactly common in the world of Forgotten Realms, at least as a Class, we're more of a 'Favoured Soul' sort of class. The Eidolon is less some little-understood outsider allowing us to summon it and in fact more like a quasi-sentient portion of the fundamental building blocks of reality.

So while I'm somewhat bemused at my lack of wall-climbing melee-punting chibi-Gogirra, a monk's robe, some gloves and a scarf allow my Eidolon to mingle with the rest of the world with little actual fanfare (at low levels, at least).

Thing is, I and a couple of the other guys had built up this Eidolon as a sort of focus for our defensive strategies and now the DM threw this at us (the bastard actually smiled and nodded all through the planning sessions but I now recall he never said "Yes." to anything. Damn he pulled a swifty on us this time!) and while we've managed to get to 4th level without too much hastle, our strategies are only just working.

Thus far We've got this for the Eidolon:

Biped
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC 17 (flat-footed 15, Touch 13) +4 natural armor; 3d10 HD (27 hit points), Saves Fort +4(good), Ref +1(bad), Will +5(good); Attack 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11, Feats Iron Will and Dodge; Free Evolutions claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs): Evolutions: Weapon Training (All Martial Weapons), Ability Increase (Constitution), Natural Armor Increase +2.

Possessions: Monk's Robe, Leather gloves and boots, Masterwork Greataxe, Masterwork Composite Longbow (+3), Bracers of Armor (+1).

I've been taken aside and given some 'vague' hints about how the Eidolon and my Summoner will play out in the campaign, and since they are a bit, well, of a spoiler I'll leave the lion's share out, but I have to basically leave the Eidolon as close to Basic Humanoid (few limbs as possible, that sort of thing) as I can manage. Which means I'm sort of limited in choices for Evolutions. Naturally stacking as much Natural Armor, Ability Enhancement, Fly (non-winged version), Damage Reduction, Fast Healing and some of the various elemental options.

Ideally I should be making some sort of threshing machine on wheels, but since "whirling tornado of arms of doom" is out of the picture, and since I share 'item slots' with the Eidolon, what should I be chasing in terms of Evolutions and Gear to make the Eidolon 'Gogir' the best blocker he can be (since Shields technically count as Armor that's a no-go) without becoming completely retarded in other situations?

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