Furious, do you think backgrounds are the only way to get skill feats?*sigh* I understand how the system works. There are multiple issues with backgrounds. The more people point out that you can get all of the same options elsewhere, the more I question why, then, we need mechanical options tied to backgrounds at all. Why spend so much current and future development time on something that isn’t adding anything new.
One of the things I’d like to see avoided is further tying mechanics to backgrounds. It is very easy to imagine a scenario calling for a different response from an NPC if one of the PCs has Criminal as their background (the example I gave earlier was a penalty to diplomacize a Hellknight). So the Rogue who took Criminal gets the penalty, but the Rogue who took Charlatan doesn’t, even though their actual backstories might be pretty similar.
To my knowledge, that kind of thing hasn’t happened yet. But there are posters in this thread indicating they plan to use it that way in their home games (by saying things like at least their players have some backstory now that they can use).
What could be useful, though, is if you have a background as being a member of the Sczarni, so members of the Sczarni react differently to you. But Criminal doesn’t cover that.
With the way the background system is set up, it encourages future books to include more generic backgrounds and fewer golarion specific backgrounds. Because you need those additional generic backgrounds in order to combine existing core rulebook skill/feat options in your background.
Most NPCs won't be aware of your character's background, though. Why is the Hellknight aware of the character's criminal past? Plus, the background can cover both current and former criminals, so a character's background won't necessarily be entirely telling of who they are today, they just still have some skills and abilities they picked up.
Also, as it stands, we have more than twice as many Golarion-specific backgrounds as generic ones.
|
Because he’s a Hellknight, and that’s his job?
Where are the additional backgrounds published? Ravingdork never answered that question. I get that there are backgrounds in the AP and module. Which book contains the rest? Lost Omen’s World Guide? I thought all of that had made its way onto Archives of Nethys already.
Because he’s a Hellknight, and that’s his job?
Where are the additional backgrounds published? Ravingdork never answered that question. I get that there are backgrounds in the AP and module. Which book contains the rest? Lost Omen’s World Guide? I thought all of that had made its way onto Archives of Nethys already.
I mean, the police don't know who all the criminals are. Just because finding criminals is a Hellknight's job doesn't mean they're aware that the rogue PC used to be a smuggler (unless they're actively committing crimes or their past crimes were serious enough for authorities to search for years for them. But at that point it's less of a background thing and moreso what the PC is currently doing).
As for the backgrounds, Ravingdork answered you here.
|
|
I mean, the police don't know who all the criminals are. Just because finding criminals is a Hellknight's job doesn't mean they're aware that the rogue PC used to be a smuggler (unless they're actively committing crimes or their past crimes were serious enough for authorities to search for years for them. But at that point it's less of a background thing and moreso what the PC is currently doing).Because he’s a Hellknight, and that’s his job?
Where are the additional backgrounds published? Ravingdork never answered that question. I get that there are backgrounds in the AP and module. Which book contains the rest? Lost Omen’s World Guide? I thought all of that had made its way onto Archives of Nethys already.
Because he researched it? Why do people know PCs are Pathfinders or anything else about them. When you force a background to be a defined thing, “Criminal,” or “Detective,” or whatever, then it’s something that developers can build into a scenario. Which I hope they don’t do. At least not for the very generic backgrounds from the core rulebook.
As for the backgrounds, Ravingdork answered you here.
Somehow I missed that he included links. Was that an edit also?
I mean, at least those are saying something about the setting, but on a quick glance through all of the Regional Backgrounds from Lost Omens World Guide, they just strengthen my point. I didn’t spot a single one that isn’t just a combination of the same basic elements. All of those could be constructed on their own. I don’t own the book, so I don’t know exact page count, but it looks to be about a page per region based on the citations. I’d submit that a page of actual new options instead of a page grouping existing options together would be a much better use of space and developer time.
Because he’s a Hellknight, and that’s his job?
Where are the additional backgrounds published? Ravingdork never answered that question. I get that there are backgrounds in the AP and module. Which book contains the rest? Lost Omen’s World Guide? I thought all of that had made its way onto Archives of Nethys already.
His quote:
"Do you know about the official rules resource, the Archives of Nethys?
General Backgrounds - These are the ones in the Core Rulebook.
Regional Backgrounds - Found in the Lost Omens World Guide.
Campaign Backgrounds - Age of Ashes so far, with more surely to come.
Adventure Backgrounds - Fall of Plaguestone, with new ones with every adventure.
Hope that helps. :)"
He gave links and everything.
Somehow I missed that he included links. Was that an edit also?
Yes, I edited those in after the initial post was made, but that was a time difference of only about 5 minutes.
You're really on top of things, Ferious Thune.
I usually try consolidate my answers and respond to multiple posters in as few posts as possible, so I will usually edit my responses one poster at a time, appending each answer to the same post (rather than having say, 2-5 Ravingdork posts in a row). Sorry if that habit has lead to some confusion.
(FYI, you can't edit posts after 1 hour has passed. That keeps things from getting too crazy, or from dishonest people from distorting the truth with their own narrative too badly.)
Here is why backgrounds matter to me:
When I sit down to theory craft characters, I usually start by picking a class or even a class feat that I really want to use, and then work backwards assembling an ancestry and background that work best with it. I have made dozens of characters this way, but not one that I have wanted to use in play, because they usually require the rest of the party to work a certain way as well.
Instead, the three characters I have built to play in campaigns, I actually started with the background first. For Fall of Plaguestone and for Age of Ashes, I found backgrounds interesting enough to build entire characters up around, that clearly will be connected to the story in a useful way for the GM.
PF1 tried to have campaign traits like this, but even the most glaringly OP options (wrath of the righteous) just became: chose the 1 that gives your already constructed character idea the most powerful option.
Building characters in PF2 and choosing a background instead of traits is a far more interesting and character defining experience for me. I appreciate having some loose generic backgrounds for when I am just messing around with characters, but when it comes time to put together a character I am going to be playing every week for months to years, it is much more fun to have that background Provide root level character definition, than a way to have one more skill feat towards my character build path.
|
|
So the other point about hard locking backgrounds is it gives them more design leeway in the future when it comes to making new skill feats. With open skill feat choice there is no space for "available at level 1 if you spend another resource on it" tier of skill feats. With backgrounds they have this balancing option.
I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying here. If you give a feat another prerequisite, you just state that you have to meet the prerequisite at the time you select your background. Since that happens before selecting your class, it would be impossible to take a skill feat in your background that required a prerequisite you couldn’t have yet.
Ravingdork - No problem. I’ve had the thread open while doing other things, so I’ve been seeing responses quickly. I just don’t want you to think I’m trying to take things out of context or ignoring things you’ve posted. I appreciate your providing the links. Somehow I missed that there was another category to click on at archives. Being able to look at them is useful in seeing how they will be published in the future. I appreciate the amount of lore in their descriptions, but I still find what is actually granted to be very underwhelming. At least the text is slightly more interesting to read.
You can gain a new class long after character creation, but I don't know of any rule that allows you to add a background when you do. Or even switch to a different background when you gain a class.
That seems to be a completely homebrew rule.
Hm. Not sure what you mean. If you're referring to multiclass dedications, I don't view that as "gaining a new class". It's more "gaining some of the abilities of a new class". A level 2 fighter with a wizard dedication is still a level 2 fighter, not a level 1 fighter/level 1 wizard.
|
|
And now I've gone through all of the backgrounds from the AP and the module, and... I'm still underwhelmed.
At this point, I'm just going to write it off as a bad system that found its way into the game and isn't going away. Eventually there will be enough options published that I can find one that's close enough and just ignore the text that goes with it and use my own. The good news is, if these are the types of Backgrounds we're going to have published going forward, there won't be anything I feel like I need to spend money on to be able to use.
If they ever do start getting referenced in scenarios, I'll worry about that when it comes up.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I really enjoy them, and think they’re a lot of fun.
Where are the other 84? I count 35 in core and one from an AP. But then I only own the core book.How many of those 120 grant something other than a combination of two stat boosts, one trained skill, one lore skill, and one first level skill feat? Assuming they’re in one of the recent books, what did we give up in terms of content to get those extra 84 backgrounds that aren’t giving us anything we couldn’t have already done by combining existing elements on our own?
Do you know about the official rules resource, the Archives of Nethys?
General Backgrounds - These are the ones in the Core Rulebook.
Regional Backgrounds - Found in the Lost Omens World Guide.
Campaign Backgrounds - Age of Ashes so far, with more surely to come.
Adventure Backgrounds - Fall of Plaguestone, with new ones with every adventure.
There is also a fifth group: Legacy Backgrounds. These are backgrounds that unlock when you complete an entire AP campaign. They were introduced in Broken Promises, which isn't up on AON yet.
|
|
I'm not particularly familiar with the intricacies of PFS, but all backgrounds grant something others don't: a particular combination of stat boosts, training in a skill, training in a lore, and a skill feat.
Except this is part of the complaint. Why can only someone with a specific background get a specific combination of those things, when they make sense for a different background, too? More on this in a minute.
Your calculations are assuming there's never anything else published which increases earned income further. Much of what made traits overpowered was how they could be combined with other options. But, sure, it's a small enough amount earned that it may not become an automatic choice.
After seeing the 80+ additional options published, it looks like Backgrounds aren't going to be anything but more combinations of things you could already get. So that will probably prevent things becoming automatic choices, if only because none of them are terribly useful to begin with.
I'll also admit that things feel more limited in PFS right now, because only the Backgrounds from the core rulebook and the PFS guide are legal. So all of those regional backgrounds aren't very helpful at the moment. And I don't expect that Backgrounds from APs and Modules will ever be PFS legal, unless by a boon.
However, to say that Backgrounds are giving something unique is, again, to manufacture usefulness. They only give something unique, because they were limited in the first place. Why should I be excited that an option comes out to allow me to take a feat that I could take anyway?
When I say that they are limited, here's an example. For this character I was looking to put together (Former Sczarni Enforcer turned Champion), I want the Group Coercion skill feat, because I see him as crowd control. I don't particularly want to spend any other resources on intimidate skill feats, because he's a changed person. He used to terrorize crowds, but now he's turned good. He still has that in him, and will use it against enemies. But if Backgrounds are supposed to represent your Background, then Group Coercion should come from his Background. Not from a skill feat he selects later.
That leaves me with one option for PFS, or three assuming and when the Backgrounds in Lost Omens World Guide are made legal.
For more than a century, the Pathfinder Society has clashed with the avaricious and underhanded Aspis Consortium, and several years ago the Society dealt its rival a decisive blow. You may be one of the few survivors of a doomed Aspis expedition, or perhaps you chafed at the Consortium’s villainous practices and defected to the Pathfinders. No matter your reasons, you know how to be efficient and ruthless when the circumstances demand.
Choose two ability boosts. One must be to Intelligence or Charisma, and one is a free ability boost.
You’re trained in the Intimidation skill and the Aspis Consortium Lore skill. You gain the Group Coercion skill feat. You gain access to any uncommon options as though you were a member of the Aspis Consortium.
Special You can select this background only if you have earned credit for at least 5 First Edition scenarios from Season 7 of the Pathfinder Society organized play campaign.
This one is closer to what Backgrounds should be. It's specific to something in-game. It could come up in-game (and given that PFS went out of their way to create it, it can probably be assumed that it will), and it gives you something that you can't already get for your character, which is also specific to the Background. In this case, access to Uncommon Aspis options. None of those appear to exist at the moment, but again, you'd assume there are plans for some since this was created.
However, as my only option to get the background feat that I want, I feel very limited by it. I wanted to make a Sczarni enforcer, not an Aspis enforcer. He could be both, but I don't really want him to be Aspis. Aspis Consortium Lore is something that's likely to come up at some point (again, since they thought to include it here), but Sczarni Lore or just general Underworld Lore makes more sense for the character. I can't reskin the background. If I take it, and they write it into a scenario (again, why would they create it specifically for the campaign if it's not possible they will do that), then I have to be subject to whatever was written into the scenario to take into account that I was previously Aspis.
My other two options are both Regional Backgrounds:
Region High Seas
You seek to join the Free Captains of the Shackles and have learned everything you need to know about sailing and bossing people around. Now you just need a crew and a ship.Choose two ability boosts. One must be to Wisdom or Charisma, and one is a free ability boost.
You're trained in the Intimidation skill and the Sailing Lore skill. You gain the Group Coercion skill feat.
Or:
You serve a living god who rules upon the face of Golarion, and this gives your actions a divine mandate not to be trifled with.
Choose two ability boosts. One must be to Strength or Charisma, and one is a free ability boost.
You're trained in the Intimidation skill and the Razmir Lore skill. You gain the Group Coercion skill feat.
So I have 1 choice for the Background for my character at the moment, and it's the one most likely to come up in a scenario. Which makes just ignoring it harder.
The other option is to figure out what the Skill Feat I would select at level 2 would be, then find a Background that grants that and take Group Coercion with my first Skill Feat instead. Basically swap them and end up in the same place. Though for level 1, there would be a little bit of a dissonance as I wouldn't have the feat from my "background" until 2nd level.
So, let's say I want Recognize Spell, since I'll be Trained in Religion, and I feel like it's a useful thing to have. That leaves me with no Core Rulebook options. From PFS, I can be a Demon Slayer. Like with the Aspis background, that one grants something extra by adding Abyssal to the list of languages you can learn with your bonus languages. Useful for a Champion, I suppose, but I was going to be a CG Champion, more focused on freeing people than on slaying demons.
My two options from the Regional Backgrounds are Magaambya Academic (Mwangi Expanse) and Rivethun Adherent (Shining Kingdoms). Neither of those really make sense for the concept, either. Studying magic in Nantambu or studying religion with Dwarves.
So to summarize, I have only 2 legal options at the moment. One involves being a former Aspis agent, and the other involves having served during the 5th Mendevean Crusade (or being a victim/bystander during it).
Somehow I've gone from a Sczarni who grew up rough, got pulled into the family racket and used to shake people down because of his size, but found religion in a temple of Cayden Cailean and took up the cause of freedom to either:
A Sczarni who grew up rough and got pulled into the Aspis Consortium and used to shake down people because of his size... or
A Sczarni who grew up rough, but joined the crusade and learned all about magic and religion and demons, then discovered Cayden Cailean so that he could learn to terrorize people (at 2nd level).
Tell me again why I can't just be a Sczarni from Varisia who never fought demons and wasn't part of the Aspis Consortium? Because that's not special enough to get the level 1 Skill Feat that I want?
The only Varisian Background at the moment, by the way, is Varisian Wanderer, which includes this "great" bit: "You have heard endless tales of your people’s history and lore, and have learned many songs and stories from the disparate people you have met." Wow, fantastic. The Background to take if you want to know about Varisians. It must grant... Circus Lore?
So, again, while these might work as a jumping off point for someone looking for a concept, they get in the way when you have a concept already that doesn't fit into one of the published Backgrounds. I keep saying they are limiting, because they have given me limited (2, or 6 if/when the other Backgrounds are legal) options. Can you see how this is making the whole process of creating the character that I want to create annoying? Even if all of the same Backgrounds were published, helping whoever they help come up with a concept, but I had the option to create my own within a set of guidelines, I could have skipped all of this research to try to find the 1 or 2 options that might be able to be shoehorned into a backstory. I'd have been done with this part of character creation in under 5 minutes and have exactly the backstory and mechanics that fit the concept, which clearly aren't an overpowered combination of mechanics, because I can get them elsewhere. Or is Sczarni Lore too powerful compared to Aspis Lore?
The last option would be to just take something that grants a completely different Skill Feat (Like Guard granting Quick Coercion that I mentioned earlier), but that now limits my mechanical choices in a similar way to how my concept choices were limited before, and it still doesn't quite fit the background story for the character, either.
And one final note... I qualify for the special requirement on both of the PFS Backgrounds (having played enough games from specific PFS1 seasons). If I was a new player looking to create this concept, I would have zero Backgrounds available in PFS that grant either of the two Skill Feats I'm looking to take. Even when LOWG is sanctioned, the 4 that it should make available are all far from the concept that I'm trying to make.
One thing I like about the backgrounds is that it is a good way to round out your character. If your character comes from humble origins, it can give you some interesting an unexpected skills. Take, for instance, one of my standby characters "Iron Redd". He is a big raging brawler who is ruthless and hedonistic. However, he comes from a noble background. I rluse that background and it gives my character some unexpected abilities that still make sense. This big, often shirtless brute and surprisingly fit in among the Gentry.
When I am unsure about what to do with my character, it gives me ideas and lays out some abilities and skills I would otherwise not consider.
And now I've gone through all of the backgrounds from the AP and the module, and... I'm still underwhelmed.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
What'cha gonna' do?
|
|
I mean there are other ways to get a skill feat at lvl1 not from background if it's so important you MUST have it at level 1.
Would you care to point them out? (I thought maybe a general feat, but those don't kick in until 3rd. So I'm at a loss for how to do this (while also being a Champion and not some other class).
EDIT: General Training, I guess? Spending an Ancestry Feat to get something that the background should have provided seems like a waste.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Stop buying Pathfinder books, I guess, if these are the types of options we're going to get.And now I've gone through all of the backgrounds from the AP and the module, and... I'm still underwhelmed.¯\_(ツ)_/¯
What'cha gonna' do?
Oooh that's certainly going to get Paizo to recall the entire PF2 CRB print run, issue a hand-written apology and republish the game with PF1-style traits instead of backgrounds.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Picking out the feat you want, instead of picking out the background for your character, seems like backwards character generation to me.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think you can easily be a Sczarni with a Guard background. Either you infiltrated the Guard for the Sczarni's benefits or you got kicked out of the Guard and found your skills appreciated by your new Sczarni employers.
I understand how it is jarring to not be able to just select the skill feat you want without worrying about the story stuff in the background. It forces some compromise between the mechanical build you're aiming for and the character's story. Or delay the acquisition of the skill feat.
It is however the price to pay to give new players more incentive to get involved in their character and in the setting.
I deem it acceptable. Obviously YMMV.
|
|
Returning after some sleep and hopeful people will actually engage in the discussion again.
RexAliquid - I came up with a background (lowercase b) and character concept first, then I went looking for options that fit it. I found the collection of skills and a feat that fit. I can’t take those, because no Background (capital B) exists which grants them. There are some that are close, but they require me to significantly change my background (lowercase b) to include the story details from the Background (capital B). The game mechanics around defining backstory are making the backstory I defined for myself harder to achieve. Am I doing it wrong, because I want to come up with my own story idea instead of using one out of the box?
The Raven Black - Whether or not a Sczarni could exist who was a guard, or a pirate, or an Aspis agent isn’t the point. Those are not things that I want the character to have been. But in order to get the abilities that represent who I want the character to have been, I have to incorporate one of those things into his story. In other words, I can’t make the character with the backstory that I came up with without either picking a generic background that gives him mostly unrelated mechanical options (Criminal is the closest story fit, but other than Underworld Lore completely wrong mechanically), or changing his backstory.
|
|
I mean its a waste if a) You didn't get the benefit of whatever other feat you got from being a different background and b) didn't want that feat in the first place. If its b then I wonder if its actually that important to your character in the first place.
I don’t want the feat in a) in the first place. If I can find a feat for a) that I would want to take anyway (as I tried to do with Recognize Spell) which also has a background that fits the character story, then I’d take it. So far that doesn’t exist.
General Feats are an incredibly limited resource in PFS2. In PFS regular play, I could get as few as 3 that aren’t pre-determined, if there are other Ancestry/Heritage options I want and don’t want to use them for more general feats.
Skills are also limited. A Champion will start with 3 (including Religion), maybe 4 if I bump INT, plus whatever the Background grants. So wasting a skill from the background on something that doesn’t fit the character is also a negative. I could get more skills by either trading a general feat or using my heritage, but that means those things aren’t available for other things.
You could also be a versatile human thus keeping your Ancestry feat for something else.
For specific feats (rather than the general get whatever you want) there are few other ancestry options that grant feats, or better yet similair bonuses that further stack with specific feats (e.g lots of languages halfling or nifty climber elf.)
Versatile Human helps things be flexible. But being a halfling (edited, because half king is not what I meant) or half-elf with an unrelated skill when the concept was a Sczarni aren’t options for story reasons.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have been sitting on a monk/champion of Shizuru idea for PFS since PF2 launched. Unfortunately, the information I need to make a champion of Shizuru in PF2 does not yet exist.
So I have decided to put the character aside until I can play that character within PFS, and play something else. I have every reason to think that Paizo will publish the rules elements required eventually, and in the meantime, there are lots of other characters out there I can play without any issues.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Returning after some sleep and hopeful people will actually engage in the discussion again.
To be fair, what's there to really engage in at this point?
You don't like backgrounds, other people do. That's... pretty much all the conversation has been for the last couple pages. You saying they're a waste of page space and other people saying they think they're helpful and good.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Returning after some sleep and hopeful people will actually engage in the discussion again.
There is no discussion, you don't like backgrounds, most people do. This thread is just bickering and whining at this point.
|
|
Returning after some sleep and hopeful people will actually engage in the discussion again.There is no discussion, you don't like backgrounds, most people do. This thread is just bickering and whining at this point.
Malk_Content has tried to offer ways to work around the limitations of the system. That’s discussion. Shisumo’s post is discussion, and gets to part of my point.
This is a thread about whether or not Backgrounds are a good thing for the game. Some people enjoy them, but they did introduce a new limitation on how characters are created and what backstories you can have.
Shisumo - Presumably you aren’t making the character due to Shizuru not being a legal deity? That’s a type of limitation that existed in PFS1 as well.
By advising that I make a different character, you seem to recognize that I can’t make the character I would like to under the current system. In other words, the Background system is limiting the options that exist. That is new to PFS2. The options we have for characters are being limited in a way that they weren’t in the past.
You’re dependent on waiting for them to publish Shizuru and make her a legal option for worship.
Now we’re dependent on waiting for them to publish a Background that makes sense for our characters.
A thing that was not limited in the past is being limited now.
The system very easily could have done everything positive that it does now, while not creating a new limitation. It could still do that, if PFS decides to allow a build-your-own background option in the way that several have indicated they would handle it in their home games. The type of Backgrounds being published, however, are a pretty clear indication that isn’t going to happen, since all but a few PFS-specific ones fit the build-your-own Background formula.
Which all combines to make it a system that makes 2E less flexible, not more. We don’t have 120 new character options. We’re being limited to 120 character options, or in the case of PFS, 46, since the Backgrounds outside of core and the guide aren’t legal.
There have been many things presented for 2E and PFS in particular as new, great options that expand the way that you can play the game, but that are actually new restrictions on how you can play the game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
RexAliquid - I came up with a background (lowercase b) and character concept first, then I went looking for options that fit it. I found the collection of skills and a feat that fit. I can’t take those, because no Background (capital B) exists which grants them. There are some that are close, but they require me to significantly change my background (lowercase b) to include the story details from the Background (capital B). The game mechanics around defining backstory are making the backstory I defined for myself harder to achieve. Am I doing it wrong, because I want to come up with my own story idea instead of using one out of the box?
The Raven Black - Whether or not a Sczarni could exist who was a guard, or a pirate, or an Aspis agent isn’t the point. Those are not things that I want the character to have been. But in order to get the abilities that represent who I want the character to have been, I have to incorporate one of those things into his story. In other words, I can’t make the character with the backstory that I came up with without either picking a generic background that gives him mostly unrelated mechanical options (Criminal is the closest story fit, but other than Underworld Lore completely wrong mechanically), or changing his backstory.
It appears to me that your problem is not with PF2E per se, it's with PFS. After all, in a non-PFS game you can probably convince the GM to allow your home-brew background, right? Am I reading this right? If so, maybe you should bring up the problem with the folks running PFS. Seems to me they have good reasons for imposing restrictions in that campaign, but maybe they'd be amenable to relaxing this one a bit. Won't know until you ask.
NB: I'm not talking about the GM running your PFS table. :-)
|
|
Ed - I may post something over there later. This thread was already going, and one of the PFS developers had posted in it (admittedly, back in August). But in general, I think it’s unlikely PFS will design an entire new system. Especially one that makes it unnecessary to purchase content that Paizo is publishing.
But PF2 (not PFS) did decide to make this a required part of the game. It’s not presented as an optional step in character creation. Just because that can be house ruled away, it doesn’t mean that Backgrounds aren’t part of the core game now, which is more than just a PFS issue. My specific problem is that my GM (PFS) currently requires that I follow the core rules, which are more limiting than they were in the past edition.
Another “fix” would be for the design team to publish the build-your-own background rules in a future book as optional rules. Then PFS could decide whether or not to adopt them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A thing that was not limited in the past is being limited now.
You certainly keep trying to frame it that way, at least.
|
Another “fix” would be for the design team to publish the build-your-own background rules in a future book as optional rules. Then PFS could decide whether or not to adopt them.
I like the Background system generally, for reasons mentioned upthread. Especially the one about being more accessible for newer folks, because I game with about half "new" and half "old" folks. And by the way, I wholly endorse this composition of gamerfolk, because each can help the other in cool and different ways.
I also agree that your idea about a Modular background could be useful.
For home games, this already essentially exists. Seeing the formula "2 stats + skill + skill feat + lore" is a simple enough recipe to request your DM "Can I be an X taking Y with lore Z?" and an easy enough "Yes" for the DM to respond.
For "official" play, and maybe the "Reactionary Rich Parents" folks will disagree with me here, but isn't it enough to exercise control over what Skill Feats get printed to essentially (and by extension) exercise sufficient control over what combinations of stat/skill/feat/lore is allowed?
Which is to say, I am not sure the argument against how Traits created a system of incentivized homogenization is valid correspondingly to the new Backgrounds system, specifically because it's only new combinations that are possible, and if there is a problem with a new Background, I would argue that it would be most likely due to a Skill Feat being too powerful than a combination being too powerful.
Plus, then you get the best of both worlds: New folks can select a Background, Customizers can create their own combination Background.
I am willing to be shown otherwise?
Cheers.
Another “fix” would be for the design team to publish the build-your-own background rules in a future book as optional rules. Then PFS could decide whether or not to adopt them.
I mean it is entirely possible that this is already covered in the GMG coming out soon. Or the advanced players guide. But honestly I think it would be bad for the default to be:” choose 2 random attributes, a skill, a lore and a skill feat.” That feels like it will make the default be to build characters capable of best doing X into the future, and make it more difficult for most players to creatively link their character to a world already in progress. I never saw one PF 1 character with a back story honestly built up around their traits.
Having the option to creatively make up a back ground that fits the campaign feels like it should be the uncommon option that requires GM buy in, not the default assumption of the game.
|
|
Which is to say, I am not sure the argument against how Traits created a system of incentivized homogenization is valid correspondingly to the new Backgrounds system, specifically because it's only new combinations that are possible, and if there is a problem with a new Background, I would argue that it would be most likely due to a Skill Feat being too powerful than a combination being too powerful.
Plus, then you get the best of both worlds: New folks can select a Background, Customizers can create their own combination Background.
I am willing to be shown otherwise?
Cheers.
I've backed off from thinking Backgrounds are going to turn into "must haves" like some traits were after seeing the additional Backgrounds that were published. Since they are almost entirely just combinations of the basic elects of a Background, that's less likely to happen. Where I become disappointed in the system is with things like the Aspiring Free Captain Background that I quoted above. There's now an option to be a pirate. But only from the High Seas Region. Because nowhere else in the world has pirates? Your home region can't be Absalom, which is city in the middle of the Inner Sea with a large port, and you get the combination of Intimidation, Sailing Lore, and Group Coercion. The text of the Aspiring Free Captain Background doesn't add anything to the lore. It's basically you're a pirate, and you want a ship. I don't see the value in publishing something like that. So many of the Backgrounds that are in LOWG are similarly without useful detail, that they essentially just become examples of how to combine the mechanical elements that make up a Background.
Me: "Let's find you a Background. What type of character do you want?"
Player: " I want to be the son of a pirate. I grew up on boats, and now I'm going out on my own, so I can be a pirate like my dad."
Me: "Ok, there's the Aspiring Free Captain Background, it gives you these skills, and you want to get your own ship."
Player: "Sounds great! I'll do that."
Later in the process....
Me: "Ok, what weapon do you want to use?"
Player: "A Katana. I want to be a samurai pirate."
Me: "Katana's are uncommon. Unless you're from Tian-Xia, you can't buy one at 1st level."
Player: "Ok, then I'll be from Tian-Xia."
Me: "Then you can't take the background that says you're a pirate..."
Player: "Ok, but I can still take one that gives me the same stuff, right?"
Me: "Umm..."
It's not hard to find a character concept that doesn't fit the existing Backgrounds. The whole Sczarni Champion is just me running into that the first time I tried to create a concept first character in 2E instead of starting with either the mechanics or the existing Backgrounds.
The AP, Module, and PFS backgrounds do better with providing relevant story detail. PFS backgrounds do better with providing mechanics tied to that story detail.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Would you like to offer a reason why that isn't true?You certainly keep trying to frame it that way, at least.
A thing that was not limited in the past is being limited now.
Since the original quote came from a reply to me, I feel justified in offering up why I think it's not true.
The background you want is not, in any way, restricted from PFS; you are completely free to make an ex-Sczarni thug-turned-champion of Cayden Cailean. The Background you want doesn't exist, but Background-with-a-capital-B is a rules concept that PF1 did not have, and therefore claims about it being "not limited in the past" are literally nonsensical. Your situation is not that the background you want for your character is not legal, but that the specific mechanical expression for that background that you want is not legal in PFS.
And frankly, that's not new at all.
It's part and parcel of the Org Play experience. Has been since it was first created. And the only thing to be done about it is to wait it out, also part and parcel of the Org Play experience. As I implicitly suggested above, my recommendation is to play something else until the mechanics you want are legal.
|
|
Another “fix” would be for the design team to publish the build-your-own background rules in a future book as optional rules. Then PFS could decide whether or not to adopt them.I mean it is entirely possible that this is already covered in the GMG coming out soon. Or the advanced players guide. But honestly I think it would be bad for the default to be:” choose 2 random attributes, a skill, a lore and a skill feat.” That feels like it will make the default be to build characters capable of best doing X into the future, and make it more difficult for most players to creatively link their character to a world already in progress. I never saw one PF 1 character with a back story honestly built up around their traits.
Having the option to creatively make up a back ground that fits the campaign feels like it should be the uncommon option that requires GM buy in, not the default assumption of the game.
It would be great if rules along those lines appear one of those places.
I've built PFS1 character concepts around traits. My healer oracle's entire backstory is based around the Scarred by War trait. I chose it because it was mechanically strong for the build, though, and then built the backstory around it. I've also chosen options that were mechanically weak (Kapenia Dancer, Hangman Vigilante, the Fighting Fan as a main weapon) and built stories around those. But I also build a lot of characters from their story first, then go looking for the mechanics to fit that story.
I don't consider either to be the right or wrong way to build a character. But I do find one more difficult in 2E so far.
|
|
Would you like to offer a reason why that isn't true?You certainly keep trying to frame it that way, at least.
A thing that was not limited in the past is being limited now.Since the original quote came from a reply to me, I feel justified in offering up why I think it's not true.
The background you want is not, in any way, restricted from PFS; you are completely free to make an ex-Sczarni thug-turned-champion of Cayden Cailean. The Background you want doesn't exist, but Background-with-a-capital-B is a rules concept that PF1 did not have, and therefore claims about it being "not limited in the past" are literally nonsensical. Your situation is not that the background you want for your character is not legal, but that the specific mechanical expression for that background that you want is not legal in PFS.
And frankly, that's not new at all.
It's part and parcel of the Org Play experience. Has been since it was first created. And the only thing to be done about it is to wait it out, also part and parcel of the Org Play experience. As I implicitly suggested above, my recommendation is to play something else until the mechanics you want are legal.
But this is where the game design discussion comes in. "Background" wasn't a thing in 1E, but all of the elements that make it up were things. We had stat boosts in the form of a point-buy. We had skills in the form of skill ranks. And we had feats.
A portion of the things that we could previously freely choose has been placed under the heading "Background," and then we've been given a limited number of ways to combine them. From a game design/character building standpoint, restrictions were added to the process.
Traits were minor things, as others have mentioned. Backgrounds are now as much as a quarter of your initial build, depending on what class you select. They're 1/4 of your stat boosts (edit: or call it 1/8, since a free boost is part of everything). They determine 2 of the 5-7 skills a Champion would get at level 1. 1 of the 3-4 free choice feats.
That's a large portion of the character build locked behind the published Backgrounds.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's a large portion of the character build locked behind the published Backgrounds.
Only inasmuch as you are demanding those build elements be made available specifically in the Background step. All are available in various forms via other choices you can make at character creation, and all are available through choices you might make later on during the character's existence. That is a limitation you are putting on your character, not the game design.
|
|
Only inasmuch as you are demanding those build elements be made available specifically in the Background step. All are available in various forms via other choices you can make at character creation, and all are available through choices you might make later on during the character's existence. That is a limitation you are putting on your character, not the game design.That's a large portion of the character build locked behind the published Backgrounds.
If I don't have another General Feat or Skill Feat at level 1 (which many, many classes/ancestries don't), how can I choose a different one elsewhere?
If I only have 3 skills I can choose with my class, and there are 4 I want, but the Background that fits my concept doesn't offer one of them, then how am I supposed to get it?
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pirate Character Hypothetical:
** spoiler omitted **...
This is only a problem for PFS.
In home game this continues: DM "Ok let's rename the Background 'Aspiring Samurai Captain'" and you're good to go.
Or even better: DM "Going to run a Pirate module but import it over to Tian-Xia and I made these six special Campaign Backgrounds check 'em out..."
|
|
Pirate Character Hypothetical:
** spoiler omitted **...This is only a problem for PFS.
In home game this continues: DM "Ok let's rename the Background 'Aspiring Samurai Captain'" and you're good to go.
Or it continues, "Published rules only." Which is essentially what PFS has said.
Just because you can ignore a rule, that doesn't make it a good rule.
|
|
Also why can't I start with the weapon proficiency I want as a wizard?
Which is again straying away from an actual discussion.
You can't start with the weapon proficiency you want as a Wizard, because weapon proficiencies are restricted by class unless you spend another resource on them.
You can't start with the Skill feat you want, because Skill Feats at 1st level are restricted by Background unless you spend another resource on them.
Are those two statements fair to say?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also why can't I start with the weapon proficiency I want as a wizard?Which is again straying away from an actual discussion.
You can't start with the weapon proficiency you want as a Wizard, because weapon proficiencies are restricted by class unless you spend another resource on them.
You can't start with the Skill feat you want, because Skill Feats at 1st level are restricted by Background unless you spend another resource on them.
Are those two statements fair to say?
That seems fair, but why does one bother you so much more than the other when they're exactly the same?