Weird Rage Interactions -- or Enter the Bardbarian

[Tiene]

So when you Rage as a barbarian, you can't use any actions with the Concentrate trait (Moment of Clarity feat notwithstanding). This means a barbarian can't Command an Animal or Demoralize (even with the Intimidating Glare feat) in a single action. However, the Cast a Spell activity doesn't have the concentrate trait unless a verbal component is used. This means a barbarian is fully capable of casting as long as the actions needed to cast those spells don't have verbal components.

Enter the Bardbarian. If you're a bard, you can replace verbal components with focus components (which don't have the concentrate trait) by playing your instrument. As far as I can tell, this works whether you're a bard multiclassing into barbarian or a barbarian multiclassing into bard, because the bard dedication feat says "you cast spells like a bard."

I haven't dove into the occult spell list or higher level barbarian abilities deep enough to see if there's anything particularly great about this besides how cheesy it feels. But I just thought everyone should know that this exists and I'm not sure how I feel about it. (Mostly just because I think it's a shame that it takes more effort for a raging barbarian to Demoralize someone than a flimsier but more charismatic character.)

[Thebazilly]

Tiene wrote:

Mostly just because I think it's a shame that it takes more effort for a raging barbarian to Demoralize someone than a flimsier but more charismatic character.

As a note, there is a 1st level Barbarian feat that allows you to Intimidate while raging - it even nets you some free Intimidate skill feats, too!

But that's an interesting synergy. The Skald lives!

[MaxAstro]

Haha, this is awesome. I wonder if that is on purpose so you can make Skalds? Either way, really cool interaction.

[Tiene]

Thebazilly wrote:

Tiene wrote:

Mostly just because I think it's a shame that it takes more effort for a raging barbarian to Demoralize someone than a flimsier but more charismatic character.

As a note, there is a 1st level Barbarian feat that allows you to Intimidate while raging - it even nets you some free Intimidate skill feats, too!

But that's an interesting synergy. The Skald lives!

I had missed that! Thanks for pointing that out! (my problem was just hitting control f and searching for “demoralize” on the barbarian feat list page)

[Xenocrat]

I personally wouldn't allow this.

"You can usually also play an instrument for spells requiring verbal components, instead of speaking."

It doesn't state what the "usually" exception is, but I don't think compositions count or it would make little sense for Unusual Composition to be a 10th level feat that costs you an extra action to swap verbal/somatic and audible/visual components for compositions.

But the game already doesn't allow it for another reason - playing an instrument is a use of the perform skill, once presumes, and perform actions have the concentrate trait. Page 250.

[MongrelHorde]

I noticed this as well, and if a player brought it up I would allow it.

This "cheeze" is the spice of life that made me love Pathfinder 1 over other editions, so it warms my heart to know there are nuggets of this in Second.

[Gratz]

MongrelHorde wrote:

I noticed this as well, and if a player brought it up I would allow it.

This "cheeze" is the spice of life that made me love Pathfinder 1 over other editions, so it warms my heart to know there are nuggets of this in Second.

I agree, especially if the picture you are selling with this isn't a person playing the fiddle, but instead being a brute on a war drum or something along those lines, because here the flavour fits the mechanics.

[Reziburno25]

Isnt downside that muscial instruments require two hands to use.

[Tiene]

Xenocrat wrote:

I personally wouldn't allow this.

"You can usually also play an instrument for spells requiring verbal components, instead of speaking."

It doesn't state what the "usually" exception is, but I don't think compositions count or it would make little sense for Unusual Composition to be a 10th level feat that costs you an extra action to swap verbal/somatic and audible/visual components for compositions.

But the game already doesn't allow it for another reason - playing an instrument is a use of the perform skill, once presumes, and perform actions have the concentrate trait. Page 250.

The sidebar from the Cast a Spell rules says bards casting occult spells while holding a musical instrument can replace “any” verbal component with a focus component. (And, when you do, the focus component gains the auditory trait and you can’t retrieve or stow the instrument.) The “usually” isn’t quite contradicted since if you don’t cast a spell from the occult tradition or don’t have a musical instrument in hand, you can’t replace the components.

I don’t think playing an instrument as a focus component is an instance of the Performance action because there’s no mention of the Perform action being used, and there’s no Performance check or Performance DC involved. My understanding is that it’s its own and completely separate action (and why then mention that the focus component gains the auditory trait without mention of the concentrate trait?)

To be clear, I’m not arguing it’s intended, just that’s it’s RAW as far as I can tell and pointing it out so that the designers can see and other users can either use this exploit or argue their own points as well. Thank you for your comments by the way.

EDIT: in regards to number of hands for an instrument that depends on whether it’s Heavy or one-handed. The bard entry also says that replacing the component requires that playing the instrument uses at least one of your hands. So a flute or a tambourine or maybe a small drum works one-handed. A two-handed instrument could potentially work with jaws attacks from the animal instinct.

[Captain Morgan]

Reziburno25 wrote:

Isnt downside that muscial instruments require two hands to use.

Not much of a downside if you're an animal instinct barbarian with antlers or a bite as your main attack.

[Reziburno25]

Ahh forget about animal one so not bad if it works, beat some drums while you ram monsters.

[MaxAstro]

Or a razortooth goblin, which would also work well with the bardbarian theme because you could take Goblin Song.

[The Raven Black]

Xenocrat wrote:

I personally wouldn't allow this.

"You can usually also play an instrument for spells requiring verbal components, instead of speaking."

It doesn't state what the "usually" exception is, but I don't think compositions count or it would make little sense for Unusual Composition to be a 10th level feat that costs you an extra action to swap verbal/somatic and audible/visual components for compositions.

But the game already doesn't allow it for another reason - playing an instrument is a use of the perform skill, once presumes, and perform actions have the concentrate trait. Page 250.

The Perform action has the Concentrate trait. The Performance skill does not. Hopefully this means you can Inspire Courage while Raging.

BTW IMO the feat you mention has no bearing on our topic. I guess it is useful in darkness or in silence.