Couple of Osirion in second edition questions


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


I searched around a bit and couldn't fit answers for these (and maybe there aren't any at the moment).

1) Are/will there be Pahmet dwarves and Ouat monks in second edition? I very much hope so as this is the background of my first second edition character which I'm currently creating.

2) Have the Osiriani gods (Ra and company) made it into second edition?


Nothing lore-wise has changed to remove them but there isn't going to be mechanical support day 1; most of it will probably be reintroduced with the lost omen books (and the gods one has already been announced and will more likely than not have rules for most of the more iconic dieties champions/clerics)


Thanks


Looking over the description given for Ouat Caste Pahmet Dwarves of PF1, and their alternate racial traits, some of the Heritages and Ancestry Feats mechanically might already support them to an extent, if not in name. I think Rock Runner and Boulder Roll replicate some of their recommended alternate racial traits. I just got my book yesterday and only looked over the dwarves briefly, but if you take a look when you get yours, you might find something that will make it work for you.


Yes, there is also the Death Warden Dwarf Heritage which is similar to a Pahmet dwarf alternative racial trait from PF1e. One thing that bugs me is how difficult it is to get additional languages without increasing Int or later on spending a feat. So, my Pahmet dwarf from Osirion can't actually speak the language of the land she is from. The lack of any language skill is very frustrating.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
pjrogers wrote:
Yes, there is also the Death Warden Dwarf Heritage which is similar to a Pahmet dwarf alternative racial trait from PF1e. One thing that bugs me is how difficult it is to get additional languages without increasing Int or later on spending a feat. So, my Pahmet dwarf from Osirion can't actually speak the language of the land she is from. The lack of any language skill is very frustrating.

Well putting a boost into intelligence gets you a lot more than just a language. Also, backgrounds can grant access to specific languages and/or the multilingual skill feat. Or you can to your GM about replacing dwarven or common with the tongue he was actually raised with.

Otherwise, expecting to be trilingual at level 1 as a creature of average intelligence and no special training seems a little much.


Trilingual (English, Swahili, and birth language) was very common in rural East Africa when I worked there back in the 1990s.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
pjrogers wrote:
Yes, there is also the Death Warden Dwarf Heritage which is similar to a Pahmet dwarf alternative racial trait from PF1e. One thing that bugs me is how difficult it is to get additional languages without increasing Int or later on spending a feat. So, my Pahmet dwarf from Osirion can't actually speak the language of the land she is from. The lack of any language skill is very frustrating.

Well putting a boost into intelligence gets you a lot more than just a language. Also, backgrounds can grant access to specific languages and/or the multilingual skill feat. Or you can to your GM about replacing dwarven or common with the tongue he was actually raised with.

Otherwise, expecting to be trilingual at level 1 as a creature of average intelligence and no special training seems a little much.

It's a very American viewpoint. If you grow up multilingual, it takes no special training or intelligence.

If you're going to have racial and cultural languages, along with a Common tongue, then everyone should get the appropriate ones. It would be a nice little automatic bonus if everyone got a culture package based on where they grew up, giving the appropriate language and Knowledge local boost applying to that area or something. (I've had cases where characters had to roll to know something about a city and the outsider with a good Know Local skill knew far more than the one whose backstory said they grew up there.)


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

It is rather easy to explain places where most people are trilingual in PF2 terms: Most people there take the human heritage that grants an extra 1st level general feat, and they select Multilingual as the extra feat.

Places where most people are bilingual are trickier to explain. ;)

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1. You'll want to check out the Lost Omens Character Guide!

2. We're trying to make sure they make it into Lost Omens Gods and Magic!


Luis Loza wrote:

1. You'll want to check out the Lost Omens Character Guide!

2. We're trying to make sure they make it into Lost Omens Gods and Magic!

Cool, thanks for the heads up.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
pjrogers wrote:
Yes, there is also the Death Warden Dwarf Heritage which is similar to a Pahmet dwarf alternative racial trait from PF1e. One thing that bugs me is how difficult it is to get additional languages without increasing Int or later on spending a feat. So, my Pahmet dwarf from Osirion can't actually speak the language of the land she is from. The lack of any language skill is very frustrating.

Well putting a boost into intelligence gets you a lot more than just a language. Also, backgrounds can grant access to specific languages and/or the multilingual skill feat. Or you can to your GM about replacing dwarven or common with the tongue he was actually raised with.

Otherwise, expecting to be trilingual at level 1 as a creature of average intelligence and no special training seems a little much.

It's a very American viewpoint. If you grow up multilingual, it takes no special training or intelligence.

If you're going to have racial and cultural languages, along with a Common tongue, then everyone should get the appropriate ones. It would be a nice little automatic bonus if everyone got a culture package based on where they grew up, giving the appropriate language and Knowledge local boost applying to that area or something. (I've had cases where characters had to roll to know something about a city and the outsider with a good Know Local skill knew far more than the one whose backstory said they grew up there.)

Yes, but as alluded to already, growing up in such an area and learning lots of languages has several ways to represent it mechanically. There are heritages that specifically represent this already, albeit not one for dwarves yet.


Captain Morgan wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
pjrogers wrote:
Yes, there is also the Death Warden Dwarf Heritage which is similar to a Pahmet dwarf alternative racial trait from PF1e. One thing that bugs me is how difficult it is to get additional languages without increasing Int or later on spending a feat. So, my Pahmet dwarf from Osirion can't actually speak the language of the land she is from. The lack of any language skill is very frustrating.

Well putting a boost into intelligence gets you a lot more than just a language. Also, backgrounds can grant access to specific languages and/or the multilingual skill feat. Or you can to your GM about replacing dwarven or common with the tongue he was actually raised with.

Otherwise, expecting to be trilingual at level 1 as a creature of average intelligence and no special training seems a little much.

It's a very American viewpoint. If you grow up multilingual, it takes no special training or intelligence.

If you're going to have racial and cultural languages, along with a Common tongue, then everyone should get the appropriate ones. It would be a nice little automatic bonus if everyone got a culture package based on where they grew up, giving the appropriate language and Knowledge local boost applying to that area or something. (I've had cases where characters had to roll to know something about a city and the outsider with a good Know Local skill knew far more than the one whose backstory said they grew up there.)
Yes, but as alluded to already, growing up in such an area and learning lots of languages has several ways to represent it mechanically. There are heritages that specifically represent this already, albeit not one for dwarves yet.

They have ways to represent it, but as far as I know they're all ways that involve investing significantly into what is mostly going to be a background detail - raising intelligence, burning feats, picking specific backgrounds - all just to talk to people you grew up around.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
pjrogers wrote:
Yes, there is also the Death Warden Dwarf Heritage which is similar to a Pahmet dwarf alternative racial trait from PF1e. One thing that bugs me is how difficult it is to get additional languages without increasing Int or later on spending a feat. So, my Pahmet dwarf from Osirion can't actually speak the language of the land she is from. The lack of any language skill is very frustrating.

Well putting a boost into intelligence gets you a lot more than just a language. Also, backgrounds can grant access to specific languages and/or the multilingual skill feat. Or you can to your GM about replacing dwarven or common with the tongue he was actually raised with.

Otherwise, expecting to be trilingual at level 1 as a creature of average intelligence and no special training seems a little much.

It's a very American viewpoint. If you grow up multilingual, it takes no special training or intelligence.

If you're going to have racial and cultural languages, along with a Common tongue, then everyone should get the appropriate ones. It would be a nice little automatic bonus if everyone got a culture package based on where they grew up, giving the appropriate language and Knowledge local boost applying to that area or something. (I've had cases where characters had to roll to know something about a city and the outsider with a good Know Local skill knew far more than the one whose backstory said they grew up there.)
Yes, but as alluded to already, growing up in such an area and learning lots of languages has several ways to represent it mechanically. There are heritages that specifically represent this already, albeit not one for dwarves yet.
They have ways to represent it, but as far as I know they're all ways that involve investing significantly into what is mostly going to be a background detail - raising intelligence, burning feats, picking specific backgrounds - all just to talk to...

If you're arguing that it is just a flavor thing (as opposed to picking a language that will actually benefit you in the campaign you're in) then every ancestry but human gets a language to represent talking to the people you grew up around. If you grew up speaking Osirion instead of dwarven, any reasonable GM will let you swap them. I do think it is weird humans didn't get a free cultural language though.

This also isn't a new problem, even if languages were a little cheaper in PF1 you still had to pay for them.


Captain Morgan wrote:

If you're arguing that it is just a flavor thing (as opposed to picking a language that will actually benefit you in the campaign you're in) then every ancestry but human gets a language to represent talking to the people you grew up around. If you grew up speaking Osirion instead of dwarven, any reasonable GM will let you swap them. I do think it is weird humans didn't get a free cultural language though.

This also isn't a new problem, even if languages were a little cheaper in PF1 you still had to pay for them.

Definitely not a new problem, but it would have been nice to see a fix for it, as they rework races/ancestries and add backgrounds.

I count count on one hand the number of times knowing specific cultural languages has even come up, much less been a noticeable benefit. Racial languages occasionally. Exotic language picks definitely. Everyone speaks common. So it's flavor.

And it would have been an easy fix, as I said above, since there's no real need to worry about balance: Get your racial language, if you're a race that has one. Get your ethnicity's language if it's somewhere that has one (that isn't Common or your race's language.)


Captain Morgan wrote:
This also isn't a new problem, even if languages were a little cheaper in PF1 you still had to pay for them.

No, but it's grating because it was a problem that was fixed in the playtest (Humans got Common and one language they had access to, which meant if they wanted their regional language, they had it- and they were presented on the facing page), and suddenly it's 'unfixed' in the final version.


Voss wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
This also isn't a new problem, even if languages were a little cheaper in PF1 you still had to pay for them.
No, but it's grating because it was a problem that was fixed in the playtest (Humans got Common and one language they had access to, which meant if they wanted their regional language, they had it- and they were presented on the facing page), and suddenly it's 'unfixed' in the final version.

I think it's been acknowledged elsewhere that this is a mistake. The final version should allow humans to get a second language in addition to Common.

In terms of the "cost" of languages in PF1e and 2e, spending a skill point for an additional language at level 1 was a reasonable cost in PF1e while increasing your Int by 2 for classes where it's not an important stat is (to my mind) not a reasonable cost. In order to get Osiriani as an additional language, my Pahmet Dwarf would have to reduce their Con, Dex, or Str by two.

It would be nice if you could trade one of your trained skills for an additional language. So, my Pahmet Dwarf Monk with an Int of 10 would be trained in 3 skills at start and have Osiriani in addition to Common and Dwarven.

Alternatively, there could be a background such as Borderlands that gave an additional language in place of one of the two skills provided by backgrounds.


pjrogers wrote:
Voss wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
This also isn't a new problem, even if languages were a little cheaper in PF1 you still had to pay for them.
No, but it's grating because it was a problem that was fixed in the playtest (Humans got Common and one language they had access to, which meant if they wanted their regional language, they had it- and they were presented on the facing page), and suddenly it's 'unfixed' in the final version.

I think it's been acknowledged elsewhere that this is a mistake. The final version should allow humans to get a second language in addition to Common.

In terms of the "cost" of languages in PF1e and 2e, spending a skill point for an additional language at level 1 was a reasonable cost in PF1e while increasing your Int by 2 for classes where it's not an important stat is (to my mind) not a reasonable cost. In order to get Osiriani as an additional language, my Pahmet Dwarf would have to reduce their Con, Dex, or Str by two.

It would be nice if you could trade one of your trained skills for an additional language. So, my Pahmet Dwarf Monk with an Int of 10 would be trained in 3 skills at start and have Osiriani in addition to Common and Dwarven.

Alternatively, there could be a background such as Borderlands that gave an additional language in place of one of the two skills provided by backgrounds.

I think trading a full skill for an additional language might be a valid trade-off, if it was for an exotic language that let you communicate with and thus use your summons more effectively or something. For a background feature that's almost never going to give any mechanical advantage, it's way overkill.

A single skill point at 1st level in PF1, that's probably a fair trade.

I don't think there needs to be a trade off at all, really. You speak Common. If your race has a racial language, you speak it. If you're from a country with a non-Common native language, you speak it.

Sure, it'll mean some characters speak more languages than others. It won't strictly be balanced. I wouldn't worry about it. No one optimizes for an extra language.

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