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In our current campaign my zen archer has invented single use spell-storage items known as payload marbles. They're diminutive ceramic balls that active their spell(s) upon destruction.
Most typically they're used in otherwise mundane payload arrows, with the marble breaking and spell activating when the arrow hits it's target.
They're proving to be very useful. My character keeps multiple bags of payloads and loads them into arrows just before firing. He often starts combat with a short flurry of silence & entangle payloads.
Payloads are best suited to AoE spells and spells with a single target.
For AoE or ranged spells the point of impact is treated as the origin of the spell. The main limitation with payloads is that the activated spell is treated as not having a caster. So, spells with multiple defined targets (Snapdragon Fireworks) have their targets chosen randomly or by the DM without any concept of "allies"; and spells that require continued control from the caster are controlled by the DM (creatures summoned by payloads act independently).
Payloads are sold in bags, with a bag of 50 diminutive payloads costing the same as a wand with 50 charges (spell level x caster level x 750gp).
The base cost doubles as the payloads increase in size:
Fine payload - 7.5GP * spell level * caster level
Diminutive payload - 15GP * spell level * caster level
Tiny payload - 30GP * spell level * caster level
Small payload - 60GP * spell level * caster level
Medium payload - 120GP * spell level * caster level
Large payload - 240GP * spell level * caster level
Huge payload - 480GP * spell level * caster level
Gargantuan payload - 960GP * spell level * caster level
Colossal payload - 1920GP * spell level * caster level
For example, a colossal Knock payload would cost 15,360GP.
Perhaps I missed it, what is the advantage of using larger payloads?
If they can just be added to other actions it seems like it should be more expensive than a wand (the cheapest way to get spell consumables), and should probably be on the order twice the price of a +1 spell storing ammunition since they have multiple advantages spell storing does not (allows area spells, and above 3rd level, can be added to other attacks/ammunition, on destruction: so can you break a whole bag of cure light payloads to heal for 50d8+50?). A +1 spell storing arrow is around 166 gp for reference.
The sole reason to use larger or smaller payloads is their context of use. For example, if you're loading payloads into catapults you'd likely want to use a single medium or large payload instead of a bag of smaller payloads.
You're probably right about them being underpriced. However as payloads are typically fired from mundane arrows, you don't have the +1 that's given by spell storing arrows.
As for what would happen if you destroyed an entire bag at once, it hasn't come up in our game so the DM hasn't ruled on it. Personally, I think the effect should increase as if you had triggered each payload individually.
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PSMouse wrote: You're probably right about them being underpriced. However as payloads are typically fired from mundane arrows, you don't have the +1 that's given by spell storing arrows.
Wouldn't having a +1 or even a masterwork bow basically make that mitigator a moot point?
It should definitely be more expensive than a wand since it reads like a can fire off spell effects as fast as you can shoot, rather than the once per round a wand user gets. That means with high BAB, rapid shots, and haste effects you're rapidly out-spellflinging casters. Add that to the fact you are getting the effects at a cost cheaper than wands, which are based on being a restricted item, requiring the spells to be on the user's list to even use (unlike things like potions) and that further exacerbates the situation.
PSMouse wrote: The sole reason to use larger or smaller payloads is their context of use. For example, if you're loading payloads into catapults you'd likely want to use a single medium or large payload instead of a bag of smaller payloads. Actually, I'd rather still use a single smaller payload, strapped onto a regular boulder in a way that makes sure it breaks on impact. Cheaper than a larger payload, and as you describe it, the only "advantage" of a larger payload is a bigger, heavier marble, not a better effect.
PSMouse wrote: You're probably right about them being underpriced. However as payloads are typically fired from mundane arrows, you don't have the +1 that's given by spell storing arrows. A +1 that's completely irrelevant when using an AoE and targeting a square/grid intersection. Also, what Pizza Lord said.
Also something that hasn't been brought up yet: They shouldn't be allowed to be used with touch spells, because giving touch spells range while making them cheaper is even more ridiculous.
And a question: Can they be thrown, or do they need these special arrows?
Pan, definitely not a Kitsune wrote: Can they be thrown, or do they need these special arrows? Generally speaking, payloads will only explode when they suffer a strong impact or force that could reasonably expected to break them. They are typically used with arrows, but they could also be activated with explosions or other strong forces. Although they're typically used with arrows, they could also be added to explosive projectiles or perhaps scattered around and activated with a fireball. Simply throwing or dropping a payload wouldn't be enough to activate it.
We haven't given payloads specific hit points yet but I imagine that. at the very least, they'll have some amount of DR/piercing.
By the way, I'm going to be passing all of your suggestions on to my DM. So I imagine that at the very least my next bag of payloads will cost a lot more.
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Can't see why the size of the projectile has any bearing on it's cost as a magic item. A huge +3 flaming bastard sword costs 32,000gp for the magical properties, just like any other weapon. The price of the mundane item may go up, but that hardly matters.
This is just spell storing with most of the restrictions removed. And while I'm all for more options, I think that some limitations were put in place for a reason. Price it as spell storing with a markup for being ranged/having less restrictions, but definitely consider adding some of those restrictions back on.
My DM has made some changes:
- Payloads are going to be more expensive (he hasn't specified the new price)
- It'll take a standard action to "charge" and fire a single payload. I'm going to try and convince him that it'd be better if it took a full-round action
I drop a colossal payload every Taco Tuesday.
PSMouse wrote: My DM has made some changes:
- Payloads are going to be more expensive (he hasn't specified the new price)
- It'll take a standard action to "charge" and fire a single payload. I'm going to try and convince him that it'd be better if it took a full-round action
A standard action to 'charge and fire' seems fair as far as action economy goes. That matches a wand, scroll, or similar spell effect uses. As long as the pricing balances correctly, that should be fine.
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Pizza Lord wrote: A standard action to 'charge and fire' seems fair as far as action economy goes. That matches a wand, scroll, or similar spell effect uses. But all of those things are just a spell, not a spell tagged onto an attack. Also, scrolls and wands have a spell completion trigger, so not just anyone can use them.
What I don't get is why they're not just arrows with spells in them. Why all this, faffing about with marbles and arrows you put marbles in?
A bunch of payload marbles means a bunch of saves.
If you are playing Ponyfinder, in the MLP movie, Fizzle Pop was able to petrify alicorns with magic grenades. If each grenade contained 20 flesh to stone payloads, Celestia was going to fail one save. Even then, Derpy was able to block a grenade for her friend Twilight Sparkle. You're putting all your eggs in one basket, as it were.
An arrow carrying a Hound Archon summoning payload, on the other hand, will head right for the most evil target when it appears. Bad news for that vampire that uses a wall of charmed NPCs.
A bag of fireball payloads will clear out an army of orcs and might even take out the half ettin leading them. Note that drow can make payloads containing web and poison spells. Universal availability is it's own kind of game balance.
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Goth Guru wrote: A bag of fireball payloads will clear out an army of orcs and might even take out the half ettin leading them...Universal availability is it's own kind of game balance. Just not seeing it. The setting might be balanced, because everyone has access to magic arrows, but the mechanics are not. No other strategy is going to hold up compared to 50d6 in a 20ft radius in one action.
Using them is a standard action. There are limits to the kinds of spells that work in them. They cost, at the least, similar to a potion. Now they're reasonable.
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