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The Transition Guide in the rulebook states:
On weapons and spells from previous sets, any power that adds to or subtracts from a check, or that rerolls dice, may be played freely.
So spells like Strength can be played freely, per this rule.
Is there any reason why this couldn't be extended to blessings as well?
Blessings like Bastet, Maat, and Starsong are definitely weaker now, since their addition/reroll powers can't be played on checks that have already been blessed. Extending the above rule to blessings would help.
Just a thought...
Adding my two cents of support
I think this is particularly important in Organised Play, while class decks have a lot of old cards without local support apart from blessings.
It makes sense that the reroll powers should be freely
On the flip side, extending that to blessings would mean that Savored Sting's first power gets to be played freely as well, and that card in particular is strong enough as-is even in a post-Core world. So unfortunately, it's not as simple as it seems.
I feel like those blessings weren't freely before (you'd frequently choose to not play a blessing if you had a Maat in hand as backup), and have no need to be freely now.
I'll admit that in the transition to Core, blessings are basically the only card type that generally reduced in power (there are some exceptions you can build around), though I think they dramatically increased in terms of being interesting.
I feel like those blessings weren't freely before (you'd frequently choose to not play a blessing if you had a Maat in hand as backup), and have no need to be freely now.
In isolation the drop down in power of blessings is fine.
The problem is with old class deck cards and inability to support other characters.When it was a weak check and you needed multiple support AND the possible after die check or reroll.
With the transition mechanics, there are less mutual support available on the tables and a lower cap on any one test.
Punishes playing at a table with one dimensional characters.
Conceptually I can see that the intention is that we should let weak checks fail and use the avenge avenge mechanic however this requires a big shift in play styles and I have not seen avenge used at ANY organised play table I have been at.
My challenges is that it feels selfish to me - “nope, I am going to let you suffer failure costs, then I will avenge you and kill the bane”
or I will play lone wolf (keep separate) to avoid spreader banes and just let you hang....
I will be fine, as I ALWAYS play very robust characters (the optimizer in me) but I try to be a team player at my tables and I think it is a negative play experience :-(
I know from talking with Mike & Keith at PaizoCon, they know that the OrgPlay transition will be painful, I just hope we see new card class decks sooner than later as when I was playing Core with Core Characters and Core cards in hand I didn't feel any of the same degree of stress as there were enough support cards across the Spells, Items, Ally's to make up for only being able to play one blessing.
Core with Core Characters and Core cards is my favorite way to play PACG now, however I have no options to do this in Organised Play yet :-(
In the mean time I suppose we need to talk more at our tables about planning to use the avenge mechanic... just the majority of my play is PbP and that level of interact is very hard to arrange over multi day turns and no real time interaction e.g. do we burn resources on me trying a weak check or do I fail and take the pain and you avenge...
On the flip side, extending that to blessings would mean that Savored Sting's first power gets to be played freely as well, and that card in particular is strong enough as-is even in a post-Core world. So unfortunately, it's not as simple as it seems.
Actually I rather than all blessings being freely, I am only thinking after roll adjustments and rerolls
(like the Savored Sting's second power is worded)
On the flip side, extending that to blessings would mean that Savored Sting's first power gets to be played freely as well, and that card in particular is strong enough as-is even in a post-Core world. So unfortunately, it's not as simple as it seems.Actually I rather than all blessings being freely, I am only thinking after roll adjustments and rerolls
(like the Savored Sting's second power is worded)
Savored Sting's second power is already equivalent to freely, so no issues there. The first power definitely falls in line with the conversion guide's wording -- it is a power that adds to a check. When using the power, you roll those 4 dice immediately and add the highest result as a fixed number to the check. This happens before rolling any of the actual dice for the check, so you can see if other support needs to be played after doing that.
I also tend to agree with Keith that if I had Maat or Bastet in hand, I typically wouldn't bother playing a blessing before the roll unless my success chances were below 60-70% or so. And, after playing a couple of scenarios using the new rules across a couple of tables, I've never felt that the lack of freely on blessings has mattered all that much. My groups have still largely crushed the scenarios, including in my Legendary playthrough of Dragon's Demand.
My groups have still largely crushed the scenarios, including in my Legendary playthrough of Dragon's Demand.
I'm mostly concerned with AD4 through AD6 in older adventure paths. Unless you have an OP team, those might be quite tough under the Core rules.
And I've already mentioned in another thread how I've seen 3 characters die in 2 weeks in Fangwood Thieves. So not everyone is coming out unscathed. :)
We have the latter half of Tapestry's Tides coming up, so we'll see what happens. It'll be fun, but it might be the painful kind of fun.
The Transition Guide in the rulebook states:
On weapons and spells from previous sets, any power that adds to or subtracts from a check, or that rerolls dice, may be played freely.
So spells like Strength can be played freely, per this rule.
Is there any reason why this couldn't be extended to blessings as well?
Blessings like Bastet, Maat, and Starsong are definitely weaker now, since their addition/reroll powers can't be played on checks that have already been blessed. Extending the above rule to blessings would help.
Just a thought...
I disagree. One of the fun part of the game was when I had both in hand a standard blessing (+1 die before rolling) and a reroll one to decide whether or not I used the before rolling. It's just extending that decision to the whole party. Fun. And consistent with all the other changes in Core. So I'm not at all in favor or "freely" playing those blessings. IMHO.
My groups have still largely crushed the scenarios, including in my Legendary playthrough of Dragon's Demand.I'm mostly concerned with AD4 through AD6 in older adventure paths. Unless you have an OP team, those might be quite tough under the Core rules.
And I've already mentioned in another thread how I've seen 3 characters die in 2 weeks in Fangwood Thieves. So not everyone is coming out unscathed. :)
We have the latter half of Tapestry's Tides coming up, so we'll see what happens. It'll be fun, but it might be the painful kind of fun.
If a scenario is too hard, I really really prefer changing the scenario than a rule applying to all the other scenarios. Especially as you can now fine tune any difficulty per scenario.
Especially as you can now fine tune any difficulty per scenario.
Are there official ways of making organized play scenarios easier? I didn't think so, but it would be cool if there were. The Guide only allows medium-sized locations to be built in OP, for example.
I think it's also worth mentioning that scenario successes in the Paizo forums may not be representative of what's happening elsewhere. The people posting here are largely PACG experts who know which characters are stronger/weaker, precisely how to build their character decks, and the best ways to play each character.
The plays/builds/strategies that I see in stores are not nearly as optimized.
...
Savored Sting's second power is already equivalent to freely, so no issues there. The first power definitely falls in line with the conversion guide's wording -- it is a power that adds to a check. When using the power, you roll those 4 dice immediately and add the highest result as a fixed number to the check. This happens before rolling any of the actual dice for the check, so you can see if other support needs to be played after doing that.
Huh! Didn't know that. Never actually played with that blessing, just eyed it hungrily in my potential upgrade paths
Makes me like the card even more
...And, after playing a couple of scenarios using the new rules across a couple of tables, I've never felt that the lack of freely on blessings has mattered all that much. My groups have still largely crushed the scenarios, including in my Legendary playthrough of Dragon's Demand.
How good are the players / level of character well roundedness?
I think these factors have a big impact and should be assessed in considering the difficulty feedback