Hi there,
my GM forces me to rethink my build. Basicly, he allows only Paizo-Content, so down the drain goes my unchained Ninja.
Is there any way, to get at least some of the ninja skills with a vanilla unchained rogue (apparently there are no unchained rogue archetypes either)?
All rogue archetypes stack with unclaimed rogue so any should work fine.
Also whiel techically ninja and rogue are different classes, ninja is basically a specific rogue archetype. Maybe you could try to explain that to your GM? May not work, but it's not really too far off the beaten path.
Well i already tried that. Then he looked at the everygame unchained ninja-archetypes and went completely bat-shit on me :-) he specifically told me "no 3rd party, means no 3rd party".
Well, like I said you can use any of the rogue archetypes with unchained. On the other hand you could just do a slayer or a ninja and take feats/abilities to pick up the specific abilities you're looking for. What about the ninja class is important to you that rogue doesn't do?
Well the unchained rogue gets finesse training, which is insanely powerful and i dont think it can be replaced by other feats.
But maybe i am overlooking something here.
Look at slashing grace, fencing grace, dervish dance and dance of chains for other ways to get dex to damage via feats, or the agile weapon property.
None are as good as finess training, but there are options.
My GM doesnt allow me to take Archetypes with the unchained Rogue. He claimed the unchained rogue was designed specifically as standalone and not to be used with archetypes.
Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace.
So, if he simply doesn't want you to combine the unchained rogue with archetypes, then you're probably out of luck, but he can't say it was specifically designed to not work with archetypes. That's only for the monk, and there have been arcehtypes designed specifically for it since then.
Look up the Ki Pool and Ninja trick Rogue Talents, those should help you feel a bit more ninja. Both work with Unchained Rogue.
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Your GM is 100% dead wrong about archetypes, point him to page 8, 1st paragraph of the Pathfinder Unchained book.
"Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace."
Followed by page 22 under the Danger Sense description.
This ability counts as trap sense for the purpose of any feat or class prerequisite, and can be replaced by any archetype class feature that replaces trap sense.
I think every single core rogue archetype works with the unchained rogue, plus several of the archetypes which came out after the unchained book even specifically have sections describing the differences between using it on a core vs an unchained rogue.
Well - not ki pool, that's not included in the rogue talents the UnRogue gets. Ninja trick works for those tricks which don't require ki.
As well as Melkiador's quote there's a note under the UnRogue's danger sense which mentions that you can trade it out in an archetype in the same way as trap sense. This implies that you can take archetypes, obviously.
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Looks like you should start looking at other class options if your GM is being a pill about unchained rogue- a class still widely considered one of the weakest combat characters in the game aside from core rogue. A slayer, maybe.
If you have your heart set on having a ninja-like unchained rogue, take 3 or 4 levels of (also unchained) monk and go the rest in rogue. This allows you to get a ki pool, allowing you to take ninja tricks like vanishing trick. You'll be fairly delayed in your rogue abilities and have a smaller ki pool, but it could work.
my GM allows only Paizo-Content, so down the drain goes my unchained Ninja. ... My GM doesnt allow me to take Archetypes with the unchained Rogue. He claimed the unchained rogue was designed specifically as standalone and not to be used with archetypes.
That's incorrect, but let's address the elephant in the room: Is your GM saddling you with these limitations because he wants to run or more or less detuned game without a lot of Tinker-toy cheese builds?
~ ~ ~
Anyway, just play a halfling, either rogue or ninja, with the following 20pt array:
STR- 10
DEX+ 17
CON: 12
INT: 12
WIS: 12
CHA+ 16
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I'm confused. Ninja IS Paizo. It's in Ultimate Combat. It's not 3rd Party at all!
Ninja is Paizo, but they never published an unchained version to correspond with the Unchained Rogue. There are various versions of "unchained ninja" out there that apply the unchained rogue buffs to the ninja, but they're not Paizo-published.
The big problem with core rogue and ninja is that their combat power is bad. Even if you're consistently getting sneak attacks on every hit you're still just mediocre, and defensively you're extremely vulnerable for a melee character. How big an issue of this depends on your group dynamics, but rogues and ninjas can really struggle to have a niche in combat.
As to the original poster, it sounds like your GM is being unreasonable. I can understand putting the foot down on 3rd party, but disallowing archetypes on the Unchained Rogue is just being needlessly punitive. Probably your best option is to go with the Teisatsu Vigilante. Stalker vigilante is basically just a better rogue to begin with, and Teisatsu gives you access to ninja tricks.
Thanks a lot for the input guys! I shall explore some of the options mentioned!
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If he turns into a real jerk about it, look at the Teisatsu Vigilante archetype.
Or just skip the Rogue framework altogether and go for one of the following.
Investigator makes for a good skills and poisons 'ninja'
Slayer for a combat focused build (Stygian Slayer archetype is quite ninja-like)
Archeologist archetype for Bard could certainly be dressed up as a ninja with a side of magic.
Vivisectionist Alchemist is arguably a better rogue than the actual rogue class.
Unchained Monk is quite strong in combat, light on skills though, and very eastern themed already.
Brawler with the Snakebite Striker archetype is another solid martial focused character that can double as a 'ninja'. Even just the core Brawler would make a fantastic stand in for a ninja.
Really, any class can be dressed up like a ninja. It mostly depends on what you want to do with a character.
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The big problem with core rogue and ninja is that their combat power is bad ... defensively you're extremely vulnerable for a melee character
The rogue can laugh off fireballs to the face. The rogue is more likely to run away and make Stealth checks to hide while doing so than any other Core class, and most others as well. The rogue can later convince the constabulary that his opponent is guilty of [insert heinous crime here], and thereby de facto acquire the town guard as minions sans the Leadership feat.
In a brightly-lit square room with a rogue-hating dragon in the middle of it (because it's one of those types of campaigns), then the rogue will be at a disadvantage.
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Be that as it may....
Race: Halfling
Racial trait: Fleet of Foot
Trait: Cautious Warrior
01 Fighter1 [Unarmed][IUS][feat:Crane Style], Cautious Fighter
02 uRogue1
03 uRogue2 [Talent:Offensive Defense], Accomplished Sneak Attacker
(The fighter multiclass dip is unnecessary in the long run; it just saves time for demonstration purposes. Build depicted is abbreviated from here.)
Fighting Defensively attack penalty at 3rd level:
-2 Crane Style
Fighting Defensively AC bonuses at 3rd level:
+3 Acrobatics (3+ ranks)
+1 Cautious Warrior
+2 Cautious Fighter
+1 Crane Style
+3 (after any successful sneak-attack)
Total: -2 attack for +7 to +10 AC. Assuming he does not shirk AC from other sources, the scofflaw can easily have way higher AC than almost anyone else, at quite low level. With such a favorable attrition ratio, it does not matter that they're not doing barbarian output when nothing can hit them and their healing liability cost to party resources is often zero. They're a mobile flanking machine generating +2s for the other party martials, and unlike most martials, they're better out of combat.
My GM doesnt allow me to take Archetypes with the unchained Rogue. He claimed the unchained rogue was designed specifically as standalone and not to be used with archetypes.
Is he just stupid, or a jerk? Not only does the book literally tell you otherwise, archetyped unRogue is still one of the weakest classes in the game, way weaker than almost all the replacement options Slyme listed.
What yon have to decide is what you actually want your character to do, i.e. what do you want from the class. "Ninja" and "Rogue" are just names, nothing more. In Pathfinder, you never need a specific class for something, every character concept can be done in a multitude of ways. Often, going beyond the most obvious choiuce actually fits the character concept better.
For instance, for a "backstabber" type character, you might think that you need to play Rogue or Ninja, while in reality, not only are there multiple archetypes granting Sneak Attack, but sneak attack is only very rarely done via sneaking. Most common is flanking (so "gang-up attack" or "teamwork attack" would be better fitting names), followed by Shatter Defenses (intimidation is sneaky how?) and Circling Mongoose (since when is "you circle around threateningly" sneaky?). More fitting for the "carefully evaluating where to strike best" concept is actually Slayer's Studied Target, and Investigator's Studied Combat/Studied Strike.
Likewise, if you want to be good at skills, you might think the classes with 8 ranks/level are best, but in practice, not all skills are equally important. If you want to be actually good at those skills that are, you need bonuses, which Rogue and Ninja don't grant (unRogue has the skill unlocks, but almost all of them suck, only intimidate is really noteworthy). Slayer, Bard, Alchemist, Investigator, or Vigilante might have slightly fewer ranks, but bonuses (and often magic to do what you'd do with skills), and thus are better at doing that job. Take Slim Jim ridiculous "convince the constabulary" idea - a Slayer has a bonus via Studied Target, an Investigator has a bonus via Inspiration, a Vigilante has a bonus from Social Grace, a Bard has spell like Honeyed Tongue and might get Inspire Competence going (rousing speaches do count as a performance!), and even an Alchemist can get a bonus via Focused Scrutiny.
Now, don't get me wrong, this doesn't mean you mustn't play Rogue or Ninja, but that you should start your character with a concept, and not with a class name.
@Slim Jim: As you have been told before, Offensive Defense still isn't aviable to unchained Rogue.
The rogue can laugh off fireballs to the face.
Evasion is very good, but it's pretty much the only defensive selling point of the rogue. Aside from that you have weak fortitude and will saves, mediocre AC and CMD, and average HP.
The rogue is more likely to run away and make Stealth checks to hide while doing so than any other Core class
Not really; rogues have no special bonuses with stealth other than having it as a class skill and investing in dex. There are some decent stealth-based rogue talents, but they're not game-changing. And anyone willing to put feat-equivalents into stealth can be good with it.
The fact that we're even debating "running away" as one of the key selling points of the rogue class says a lot in and of itself.
The rogue can later convince the constabulary that his opponent is guilty of [insert heinous crime here], and thereby de facto acquire the town guard as minions sans the Leadership feat.
The rogue is nothing special at this, and any charisma-based class does the face job better.
Evasion is very good...In a game with Dazing metamagic, you're damned right it is very good.
Failure to successfully flee when the dice gods are playing hardball is a key element in the overwhelming majority of character deaths (not to mention TPKs) that I have seen. --As always: it's about managing attrition., but it's pretty much the only defensive selling point of the rogue.You mean aside from the becoming-unhittable fighting defensively gimmick which I explored in my post (constituting the bulk of it), and which doesn't necessary require being a halfling either (what with Ancestral Heritage)?[quoteThe fact that we're even debating "running away" as one of the key selling points of the rogue class says a lot in and of itself.
The rogue can later convince the constabulary that his opponent is guilty of [insert heinous crime here], and thereby de facto acquire the town guard as minions sans the Leadership feat.The rogue is nothing special at this, and any charisma-based class does the face job better.
By "any" you mean maybe one or two classes out of a couple dozen, since most classes don't have enough skill points to throw at ten different things.
And I rather doubt that any GM clamping down the cheese lid to the point to stifling rogue (perhaps one whose unhittable gimmick he is tiring of, especially one who's "B+" rating in almost every skill) is going to allow in every newer splat class or every necessary gadget or archetype option required to minmax those alternatives such that they're even more irritating than the rogue being stifled.
"Your GM has a hate-on for rogues? Well then try this rogue-like thing that's even rogueier! Surely he won't notice!"
By "any" you mean maybe one or two classes out of a couple dozen, since most classes don't have enough skill points to throw at ten different things.
There are exactly two charisma based skills that would help for the job (the one you proposed), diplomacy and bluff. So, what other eight "different things" are you talking about?
"Your GM has a hate-on for rogues? Well then try this rogue-like thing that's even rogueier! Surely he won't notice!"
If you pick one of the options without Sneak Attack, or at least with reduced progression, it's actually rather likely. After all, the GM having a problem with the Rogue kinda proves they're stupid. There's a good chance they think "lots of dice rolled = super powerful!!!11", so bonuses from Studied Target/Combat, or Archaeologist’s Luck probably don't trigger the GM's irrational ire. If the GM would evaluate how powerful the classes actually are, they wouldn't nerf Rogue in the first place.
In a game with Dazing metamagic, you're damned right it is very good.
Uh... Evasion doesn't actually do anything against Dazing spell. A successful save already negates the Dazing effect (and it's not even necessarily a reflex save). Improved Evasion doesn't help either, since it only halves damage on a failed save and doesn't negate other effects.
Failure to successfully flee when the dice gods are playing hardball is a key element in the overwhelming majority of character deaths (not to mention TPKs) that I have seen. --As always: it's about managing attrition.
If the best contribution you can make in a losing fight is to run away and save your own skin, you're not helping.
Without getting into whether UC Rogue is a weak class or not, which really isn't the point of the OP's question, I was sympathetic to your GM until I read further. Even if your 3pp material is extremely benign (and it is) I don't want to deal with other players complaining I made an exception UC ninja and not their ludicrously unbalanced psionic Path of War abominations. But your request really isn't unreasonable so I'd try to find a way to accommodate it.
That being said, your GM is absolutely wrong about UC rogue archetypes as explained above. Ninja isn't an archetype but honestly it doesn't take much to convert it. The vanilla ninja is pretty weak, I don't think that's controversial.
I'd also agree there are tons of cool ways to play a "Ninja" character that doesn't use the class. Vigilante is a new favorite of mine but Slayer is always an option with full BAB.
I've built a fun crit fishing UC Rogue 4/Slayer (Executioner) X build for a NPC dual wielding wazukashis that's pretty fun though hardly optimized.
St0nemender, what is it that you're most hoping to do with your character?
St0nemender, what is it that you're most hoping to do with your character?
Seriously, at this point, i wish i knew.
We had our first game session last evening and i went in there with a pretty standard UCRogue (Vishkanya for Kukri proficiency, 10/20/14/13/8/10, TWF@lvl1).
Basicly i thought, ok, just go melee, straightforward DPS with flanking and maybe some crit-fishing and dish out some damage via team feats. Turns out that none of the other players have ever considered flanking or team feats and the LG Paladin Tank of the group downright refuses to work with the rogue because "sneak attacks are not honourable".
So, presently i am not quite sure, what exactly my niche in this group could be, because even the UCRogue depends heavily on the party to do anything at all. Maybe i should consider rolling a Slayer Sniper build of something.
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Turns out that none of the other players have ever considered flanking or team feats and the LG Paladin Tank of the group downright refuses to work with the rogue because "sneak attacks are not honourable".
Ugh. I hate when people give paladins a bad name. On top of that, it's metagaming for his character to think of it as sneak attacking. To the outside world, your rogue simply does extra damage when his enemy is distracted. It could just as easily be called opportunism.
Basicly i thought, ok, just go melee, straightforward DPS with flanking and maybe some crit-fishing and dish out some damage via team feats. Turns out that none of the other players have ever considered flanking or team feats and the LG Paladin Tank of the group downright refuses to work with the rogue because "sneak attacks are not honourable".
I strongly believe in the players coordinating their builds and working together to determine the groups philosophy on this sort of thing before the game ever begins. Either a focus on individual abilities or a focus on coordination can be a fun game, neither is 'wrong' but the players should all be on the same page before they make characters.
Obviously, that didn't happen before the game in this case, but it should probably happen anyway. Different assumptions can really make the game a less fun experience for everyone, as you are finding out.
I would never expect the other players to take teamwork feats just because I want them for my build, but I'd also expect them to listen to my thoughts on the matter and see if they could fit them in, and let me know when they would take them, if they could. If they couldn't, obviously different build choices would be required.
I would generally assume that a reasonable amount of coordination in combat would be expected, such as supporting flanking and certainly I think the other Paladin player is being unreasonable, but the main thing is that you need to find some way to communicate with the other players and determine what the group consensus is on how the game is going to be played.
Then, you may need to decide on a different character theme if what you were initially thinking of doesn't fit with that, or, worst case, decide that the group and you can't have an enjoyable game together and find a different group.
I agree with you that i went about the whole character thing the wrong way. I'll try to adress the whole thing through communication.
Another group is not really an option :-) those guys are friends and we have been playing different P&P games for years now. Pathfinder is quite different from other P&P games with its class centered approach.
Another group is not really an option :-) those guys are friends and we have been playing different P&P games for years now.
Good news there is that with friends that you know well, the drastic approach won't be required anyway.
Even if the particular character you are thinking of won't work well with the way the group wants to play, there are tons of choices you have and you can probably find one.
One mistake that a lot of players, especially newer ones, make when looking at Pathfinder's 'class centered approach' is to confuse class with concept.
Just because you want to play a Ninja or a Thief doesn't necessarily mean that the rogue chasis is the right one for you. While the Rogue class is a way to make some of the of 'Rogue' concepts, it certainly isn't the only one.
Based on the vibe I am getting from your previous posts, I would strongly recommend you look at the slayer class. It has a lot of rogueish features, but is also a bit more self sufficient and less 'sneak attack or nothing'.
Also, If I were you I'd probably have my character complain about how unfair and dishonorably the Paladin fights when he uses smite or a spell in combat.
I'll also put a vote in for slayer. With the ranger fighting style feat you can pick up shatter defenses without all the prereques and guarantee your sneak attack on a lot of foes without any help needed. Slayer is a really really well balanced martial/skills class.
Shatter defences requires two feats as prerequisits, and a +5 bab, plus it also requires investing skill points if you want it to work reliably and it is only going to work on a single opponent per round if you hit them. I'm not saying it's not worth the investment, but it isn't an easy to pick up trick.
I don’t think anyone said the unchained rogue doesn’t have defense. That seemed to be about the regular rogue.
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If you really want to make your GM mad...hyper focus on intimidate, take enough levels of Stalker Vigilante to get Twisting fear, take enough levels of unchained rogue to get the skill unlock for intimidation, get dazzling display and shatter defenses, jump into the middle of a pack of baddies (unless they are immune to fear/mind affecting), dazzling display, give them all the cowering condition for 1 round or panicked for several rounds, followed by frightened after that, plus you do damage to them all ...then spend the next few rounds going around murdering things with a cruel weapon, stacking up debilitating strike effects, etc.
Gets real easy to beat intimidate DCs by 20 or more when you get upwards of +40 on your rolls :)
You'd probably want to slap on 3 levels of antipaladin at that point to suppress fear immunity.
There are a few archetypes that specifically call out how they need to be modified in order to work with unchained rogue. I can only remember Phantom Thief and Discretion Specialist, but there could be others.
If your allies are weiners about flanking, you could try the "press to the wall" feat. It lets you treat solid objects as flanking allies as long as you are the only one threatening the target. The gangup feat works as well if you have a group with 2 melee characters aside from yourself. If your paladin is mounted, or you have an animal companion, then you're good to go.
If the paladin is actively attempting to impede you, it may be worthwhile to get elven branched spear proficiency, or bladed brush for dex to hit and damage with a reach weapon. Pick up phalanx formation when you have the chance in order to negate the -4 for attacking from over his shoulder.
You can pick up major magic "long arm" if you want to push your reach further and combine your cover behind the paladin with aoos before he's engaged. At this point the paladin will either continue fighting, ignoring you and keeping you safe, or let enemies past him to screw with you. Letting them past sets you up for normal flanking and you get to use your sneak attack again.
All that said, I'm guessing your DM isn't keen on rogues to begin with and it may be a good idea to ask what he thinks would be more fitting.
St0nemender, what is it that you're most hoping to do with your character?Seriously, at this point, i wish i knew. We had our first game session last evening and i went in there with a pretty standard UCRogue (Vishkanya for Kukri proficiency, 10/20/14/13/8/10, TWF@lvl1).
It looks like you're playing with 25pt-buy (which is quite generous, especially if your GM is running APs), but are murdering your point efficiency to pay for that 20 at 1st level. As a Vishkanya rogue, your will save in particular will be atrocious, and you'll feel it acutely once even at the baby levels when every Colorspray zonks you. The racial charisma bump is going to waste.
Try this for a stat distribution instead:
STR: 8
DEX+ 19
CON: 14 (Vishkanya 17,14,14,12,12,8 35pt-array)
INT: 12 or 14
WIS- 10
CHA+ 16 or 14*
(*IMO, having a tenth skill point per level is not as important as having a +1 to all your social skills. But, YMMV. Keep a 14 in Int if you want Combat Expertise.)
Option: play a "blockhead" with dumped INT, which is quite easy to get away with in a rogue since you'll still have at least 6 skillpoints per level, and the Dirty Fighting feat is a neat substitute for Combat Expertise feat-chain prerequisites.
"Blockhead" Vishkanya dex-rogue:
STR: 7 or 8
DEX+ 20
CON: 14 (Vishkanya 18,14,14,14,8,7 35pt-array)
INT: 8 or 7
WIS- 12
CHA+ 16
Halfling ("the quintessential rogue") comparison for base reference:
STR- 5 or 10
DEX+ 17
CON: 14 ((halfling 17,14,14,14,12,7 35pt-array)
INT: 12 or 7
WIS: 14
CHA+ 16
(With his size bonus, the small character's attack and AC are comparable to a normal-sized race whose tied ability scores are two higher apiece, i.e., much more expensive in point-boy. The amount of in-game support for halflings in Pathfinder is better than most other races in terms of their granted base abilities as well as race-specific traits and feats.)
Query: Is your decision for going with a Vishkanya mainly based on acquiring martial-weapon proficiency in kukri for a straight-classed character? (The better way to do this is by dipping a level of fighter or dex-raging martial class such as urban bloodrager or SavTech or urban barbarian. Not only do you gain +2 fort-save and +1 or +2 hp, but you'll pick up much better weapon and armor proficiencies.)
As a rogue, your biggest problems will be defense-related, not output-related. In that regard, pimping your AC to the nines is first priority (e.g., my defensive fighting exploration posted previously). Stealth should likewise be maxed; other characters in the party may have ranks and similar stat bonuses, but their heavier armor-check penalties will apply (whereas your ACP should be at worst -1). You don't need to beat the Perception score of every monster in the manuals, but it's ideal if you can routinely beat the Perception score of enemy casters -- most saving throw magic requires targeting, and if you're not seen, then you're not targeted.
Weapons: once you're uRogue 4th, all you really care about is hitting your opponent with a SA, because Debilitating Injury will stuff them good, and your choice of weapon becomes largely superficial at that point. (I knew a halfing rogue in PFS who fought with an adamantine spoon and wore a crockpot for a helmet.)Basicly i thought, ok, just go melee, straightforward DPS with flanking and maybe some crit-fishingThis is the popular concept of a rogue in d20 combat, although (as others have noted) it is in practice difficult to make work well, particularly at higher levels as the disparity in hitpoints, AC, and fortitude save versus tankier martial classes steadily increases.
...and dish out some damage via team feats. Turns out that none of the other players have ever considered flanking or team featsI advise against Teamwork feats unless you have a mechanism for swiftly sharing them with the entire party.
and the LG Paladin Tank of the group downright refuses to work with the rogue because "sneak attacks are not honourable".I would use this is an opportunity for roleplaying hilarity at the very low-levels when everyone is still fleshing out their character's personalities. For example, if the paladin has the wisdom score of an elm stump, trying Bluffing him on the applicability of various battle tactics. Convince him that flanking in broad daylight is neither "sneaky" nor dishonorable. Pick up the Nonchalant Thuggery trait.
So, presently i am not quite sure, what exactly my niche in this group could be, because even the UCRogue depends heavily on the party to do anything at all.
My advise is mainly to relax. Soon enough, the party will face tougher opponents, and the paladin's current luxury of eschewing competent tactics will diminish accordingly. Eventually you'll being going first in Initiative much of the time while his full-plated behind is usually going last.
Final tip: keep Use Magic Device maximized, and start buying wands. Your teammates tend to look approvingly upon d8 support characters who pop a Bless at the beginning of combat -- and that handy +1 to everyone is often lost in the shuffle once the casters level into their bread-and-butter spells.
the LG Paladin Tank of the group downright refuses to work with the rogue because "sneak attacks are not honourable".
Tell the player to stop being an a%# h$*&. Because that's what he is. If sneak attacks would be dishonorable, the Paladin description would say so. Indeed, I would say the dishonorable thing here is to not help your teammates! You could also point out that Rogues can have any alignment, including lawful good.
Note that this is under the presumption that you play your character properly, and not the cliche chaotic neutral (in reality evil) jerk who steals from party members and secretly works against them.
Also note that going into flanking position is not always feasible. You should not expect other characters to gimp their own character just to enable yours (this is a big part of why Sneak Attack is such a weak mechanic). Other players might also have character concepts that have no room for teamwork feats.
Maybe i should consider rolling a Slayer Sniper build of something.
Sniping is even harder to pull of, and a single attack per round isn't a valuable contribution to a fight come mid levels.
Have you considered Investigator? It has a cool "backstab" mechanic unrelated to sneak attack. Slayer would be somewhat of a middle ground.Basicly i thought, ok, just go melee, straightforward DPS with flanking and maybe some crit-fishing and dish out some damage via team feats.
What you have to realize here is that Rogue sucks at doing damage. Sure, when you get off a full attack where most attacks hit and all do sneak attack (and the target doesn't have DR), the damage is pretty nice. But not only can others match that damage, but you only do so pretty rarely. Rogue, even unRogue, even with archetypes (apart from Eldritch Scoundrel), is one of the weakest classes in the game, and probably the worst class to play as a new player.
Pathfinder is quite different from other P&P games with its class centered approach.
Did you not read my first post? The class is but a name, it's what you do with it that's important.
