There’s so many stories that can be told about such a galaxy.
I don't think its the best plan to reduce the characters you've been building for two movies into a mere a side quest top focus on the villian as the final act of the trilogy. What you've laid out probably would have been more interesting if that's where they were going from the start, but it doesn't sound like one movie (mind you, rise of skywalker wasn't just one movie either)
|
There’s so many stories that can be told about such a galaxy.I don't think its the best plan to reduce the characters you've been building for two movies into a mere a side quest top focus on the villian as the final act of the trilogy. What you've laid out probably would have been more interesting if that's where they were going from the start, but it doesn't sound like one movie (mind you, rise of skywalker wasn't just one movie either)
None of what I suggested would do that anymore than the OT reduced Luke, Leia, and Han to being a side quest to Vader’s redemption.
But, really, the whole Death Star/ Endor shield plot was basically filler for 2/3rds of the cast to keep them busy while Luke has his showdown with Vader and the Emperor.
Jester David, while certainly your ideas present, in some respects, a very different plot, the key elements you want to see worked with are all in fact addressed if not used extensively in the Rise of Skywalker. In particular, the rivalry between Hux and Ren is a critical plot point (if applied in a different way and not the ultimate focus of the story), and parallels of Anakin vs Ben/Kylo (while definitely not the same) are strongly present in Kylo's plot advancement (and IMO is one of the best things they did in the film).
I respect your decision to not see the film. But for whatever it's worth, I think what you think this movie is and what it actually is are two different things. (I'd also suggest that several reviews have been off the mark or over-emphasize certain issues, whether positive or negative, and I think that comes from trying to avoid spoilers, so going by them is actually probably going to give you highly skewed expectations.) Complaining about Rise of Skywalker, and that it somehow doesn't do what you expected, without actually seeing it, strongly weakens your argument.
When, eventually, you do see it when it becomes available for streaming, I'd be curious to see your reaction and how it does and doesn't address the themes and elements you think are important.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I respect your decision to not see the film. But for whatever it's worth, I think what you think this movie is and what it actually is are two different things. (I'd also suggest that several reviews have been off the mark or over-emphasize certain issues, whether positive or negative, and I think that comes from trying to avoid spoilers, so going by them is actually probably going to give you highly skewed expectations.) Complaining about Rise of Skywalker, and that it somehow doesn't do what you expected, without actually seeing it, strongly weakens your argument.
From experience, my taste in movies tends to align with most movie critics, and I don't find it easy to "shut my brain off" from illogical plot points. And it sounds like there's a heck of a lot in said film.
And I have friends with similar tastes who have seen it who have been less than favourable with their reviews...Also, I had zero tolerance for Abrams' no-breaks pacing in Force Awakens, after first noticing it in Star Trek.
The chase-in-the-sand, chase-in-ships, ship-breaking-down, ship-being-boarded, other-ship-being-boarded, generic-CGI-monster-chase... and breathe... for five seconds, was needless. And it sounds like TRoS turns that up to 11.
I'm not trying to argue with you, or tell you you're wrong for not seeing the film. Indeed, it could even be best you don't.
I had two points: there are things I think you want addressed... that are addressed, but you seem to refuse to believe this, which is weird.
Second, you are reviewing the film, effectively, without having seen it. To me, someone who has seen it, you appear to be wildly misinformed, and therefore it's hard to take what you have to suggest seriously. I would prefer to see what you think and how you would redo things after you see it---if you ever do.
As an aside, FWIW, I actually found the pace of ROS to be slow, and definitely slower than in Force Awakens (I don't get the criticism that it moves too fast; I liked the film but if anything I felt like if anything it dragged its feet too much). You may certainly still dislike certain plot elements or Abrams' direction in general. Indeed, I think given your preferences you're right to hold off seeing it until you can for legal but minimal cost to you.
Also, I had zero tolerance for Abrams' no-breaks pacing in Force Awakens, after first noticing it in Star Trek.
The chase-in-the-sand, chase-in-ships, ship-breaking-down, ship-being-boarded, other-ship-being-boarded, generic-CGI-monster-chase... and breathe... for five seconds, was needless. And it sounds like TRoS turns that up to 11.
^^ THIS!!
The episode 7, 8 and 9 Star Wars movies so far have been a complete write off IMO. Except for Rogue One and Solo in between them... Those had something fresh and interesting in them, with ok pacing. And awesomer actors in them. ROS should have been done as a 13-episode TV show season: plain and simple. Way too many reveals and events to squeeze into one movie.
For an absolute perfect masterpiece in pacing, music integration, and general directorial genius in the Star Wars genre, check out The Mandalorian on Disney+ if you haven't done so yet. First month is free and the entire season is available now.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Interestingly, there is a rumor that JJ wanted Disney to split this into two films (ala Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows) but they ultimately refused. We have no way of knowing, unless one or both sides speaks to the issue, but it is interesting.
If you watch interviews with JJ right before the movie’s release, as well as in the weeks after, he seems proud of it but there also seems to be an undercurrent of ... frustration. I kind of wonder if this could be the source ...
Bottom line for me is that they made the best movie they could given all of the requirements they received from Kennedy and Lucasfilm.
Interestingly, there is a rumor that JJ wanted Disney to split this into two films (ala Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows) but they ultimately refused. We have no way of knowing, unless one or both sides speaks to the issue, but it is interesting.
I don't doubt it. I got that feeling too.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
None of what I suggested would do that anymore than the OT reduced Luke, Leia, and Han to being a side quest to Vader’s redemption.
But, really, the whole Death Star/ Endor shield plot was basically filler for 2/3rds of the cast to keep them busy while Luke has his showdown with Vader and the Emperor.
you're also relying on hux to be the ..anti-antiantagonist? when the last jedi turned him into a joke. Beating him would be a forgone conclusion. "Hey, I may have gotten beaten up by a girl who just picked up a light saber yesterday, twice, but at least I can beat hux..." isn't enough to get you any badguy cred.
I also can't see how you're building on much from the last jedi that wouldn't just as easily fit in the force awakens.
Interestingly, there is a rumor that JJ wanted Disney to split this into two films (ala Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows) but they ultimately refused. We have no way of knowing, unless one or both sides speaks to the issue, but it is interesting.I don't doubt it. I got that feeling too.
So what are we more likely to get, the Abrams cut of two movies or han shooting first again?
Im guessing Disney didnt want to drag it out. They seem keen on finding a new direction for SW away from the Skywalkers.
Amen to that.
|
|
I'm not trying to argue with you, or tell you you're wrong for not seeing the film. Indeed, it could even be best you don't.
I had two points: there are things I think you want addressed... that are addressed, but you seem to refuse to believe this, which is weird.
Second, you are reviewing the film, effectively, without having seen it. To me, someone who has seen it, you appear to be wildly misinformed, and therefore it's hard to take what you have to suggest seriously. I would prefer to see what you think and how you would redo things after you see it---if you ever do.As an aside, FWIW, I actually found the pace of ROS to be slow, and definitely slower than in Force Awakens (I don't get the criticism that it moves too fast; I liked the film but if anything I felt like if anything it dragged its feet too much). You may certainly still dislike certain plot elements or Abrams' direction in general. Indeed, I think given your preferences you're right to hold off seeing it until you can for legal but minimal cost to you.
There’s also financial reasons for not seeing TROS. Money is exceptionally tight for me at the moment, and I can really only justify seeing one movie... probably for a while. Months.
I didn’t see any reason for that one movie to be something with even a moderate probability of disliking.
Original script has been leaked... the one before JJ took over...
interesting.
Very interesting.
That said I am suspicious of the tone of the piece, especially where Rose and The Last Jedi is involved.
I could also see a lot of the broad strokes of the film being picked up in later works.
I absolutely would have loved to see Finn lead a battalion of defected Stormtroopers through the streets of Coruscant...
I absolutely would have loved to see Finn lead a battalion of defected Stormtroopers through the streets of Coruscant...
we already got him leading troops. Which was cool.
I absolutely would have loved to see Finn lead a battalion of defected Stormtroopers through the streets of Coruscant...we already got him leading troops. Which was cool.
Which ones? I forgot already...
|
The leaked script sounds like "Screw the first seven movies" to me. A giant steaming pile that would pretty much only please fans of episode 8, and have no place in the Skywalker Saga.
As far as who Rey is, either John Williams is a psychic, or he influenced JJ's decision, or he was one of the few who knew the whole plan from the beginning.
The leaked script sounds like "Screw the first seven movies" to me. A giant steaming pile that would pretty much only please fans of episode 8, and have no place in the Skywalker Saga.
As far as who Rey is, either John Williams is a psychic, or he influenced JJ's decision, or he was one of the few who knew the whole plan from the beginning.
Or process of elimination or Infantry barrage sharpshooting (that many geeks shooting at a target some of them are bound to hit it dead center)
Now if Denzel had led a group of former storm troopers...
Or process of elimination or Infantry barrage sharpshooting (that many geeks shooting at a target some of them are bound to hit it dead center)The leaked script sounds like "Screw the first seven movies" to me. A giant steaming pile that would pretty much only please fans of episode 8, and have no place in the Skywalker Saga.
As far as who Rey is, either John Williams is a psychic, or he influenced JJ's decision, or he was one of the few who knew the whole plan from the beginning.
What does this have to do with John Williams' score?
|
What does this have to do with John Williams' score?Or process of elimination or Infantry barrage sharpshooting (that many geeks shooting at a target some of them are bound to hit it dead center)The leaked script sounds like "Screw the first seven movies" to me. A giant steaming pile that would pretty much only please fans of episode 8, and have no place in the Skywalker Saga.
As far as who Rey is, either John Williams is a psychic, or he influenced JJ's decision, or he was one of the few who knew the whole plan from the beginning.
There is a scene with snoke in TFA that has palps turn Anakin music from the prequels going.
|
|
There is a scene with snoke in TFA that has palps turn Anakin music from the prequels going.What does this have to do with John Williams' score?Or process of elimination or Infantry barrage sharpshooting (that many geeks shooting at a target some of them are bound to hit it dead center)The leaked script sounds like "Screw the first seven movies" to me. A giant steaming pile that would pretty much only please fans of episode 8, and have no place in the Skywalker Saga.
As far as who Rey is, either John Williams is a psychic, or he influenced JJ's decision, or he was one of the few who knew the whole plan from the beginning.
Or it could have just been there as a reference without being specific to those characters. It's still the Big Bad Dark Side Force Villain with his Turned (but maybe wavering?) apprentice, so it would still be relevant.
Sure. Im not commenting on the intent, just where the rumors come from.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The leaked script sounds like "Screw the first seven movies" to me. A giant steaming pile that would pretty much only please fans of episode 8, and have no place in the Skywalker Saga.
As far as who Rey is, either John Williams is a psychic, or he influenced JJ's decision, or he was one of the few who knew the whole plan from the beginning.
Assuming the leaked script is at all real, what it confirms is the biggest problem with this whole trilogy: There was no plan from the beginning. Which was already pretty evident.
That's not how you make a trilogy. You need some kind of an outline, so you can set things up and make them pay off later.
it worked out just fine for the original trilogy.
|
|
There is a scene with snoke in TFA that has palps turn Anakin music from the prequels going.What does this have to do with John Williams' score?Or process of elimination or Infantry barrage sharpshooting (that many geeks shooting at a target some of them are bound to hit it dead center)The leaked script sounds like "Screw the first seven movies" to me. A giant steaming pile that would pretty much only please fans of episode 8, and have no place in the Skywalker Saga.
As far as who Rey is, either John Williams is a psychic, or he influenced JJ's decision, or he was one of the few who knew the whole plan from the beginning.
Actually, not that. Rey's theme. Pay attention to it in relation to Palpatine's.
it worked out just fine for the original trilogy.The leaked script sounds like "Screw the first seven movies" to me. A giant steaming pile that would pretty much only please fans of episode 8, and have no place in the Skywalker Saga.
As far as who Rey is, either John Williams is a psychic, or he influenced JJ's decision, or he was one of the few who knew the whole plan from the beginning.
Assuming the leaked script is at all real, what it confirms is the biggest problem with this whole trilogy: There was no plan from the beginning. Which was already pretty evident.
That's not how you make a trilogy. You need some kind of an outline, so you can set things up and make them pay off later.
The first was intended as a stand alone and worked that way. The other two were tied more closely together. I assume there was an outline for both that they worked from. Details always change in development, but the basics were there.
In this cycle, the first one wasn't intended to work alone, but also didn't know what it needed to set up for the next. Or so it appears.
with the astonishing number of changes made between empire and jedi? There wasnt even supposed to be a second death star. Han was supposed to be dead. The plans for that movie was scrapped and replaced with a different movie. So yes, it worked well for the original trilogy.
There is a scene with snoke in TFA that has palps turn Anakin music from the prequels going.What does this have to do with John Williams' score?Or process of elimination or Infantry barrage sharpshooting (that many geeks shooting at a target some of them are bound to hit it dead center)The leaked script sounds like "Screw the first seven movies" to me. A giant steaming pile that would pretty much only please fans of episode 8, and have no place in the Skywalker Saga.
As far as who Rey is, either John Williams is a psychic, or he influenced JJ's decision, or he was one of the few who knew the whole plan from the beginning.
I was asking BNW what he meant, not you. I have a post upthread with a link that shows extremely distinct similar musical themes in Rey's leitmotif and that of her progenitor's. (Eta Raia also mentions this above.) A genius like John Wiliams doesn't do that unintentionally.
Which has nothing to do with infantry geek barrage or whatever.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This thread is finally calming down. :)
Its amazing how pissy people get about SW...
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'll buy everyone a round at the cantina.
I think people get legitimately pissy about Star Wars. For many people, Star Wars is the most important ongoing story of their childhood, whether they are children of the first trilogy (like me) or the prequels. As someone who read every novel, every comic, and watched every show, and read and played every available RPG game and supplement, I'm confident that I (and thousands of others) are more invested in Star Wars than the people who are have presided over Star Wars since the Disney Acquisition. To many of us, that seems unfair.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If that's unfair, but this is okay, then something is up.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the blessing and curse of Star Wars is that the first one you see as a child is utterly magical. The Star Wars films, while ostensibly not children's movies, somehow speak to kids in a way that especially gets them excited. And I am of the (possibly controversial) opinion, that in the end any given Star Wars film is for the children who see it most of all, for the ones who are experiencing that magic and excitement for the first time.
But as a fan grows up and change and invest, the flaws and bizarrenesses and whatnot of the series appear, even as growing up generally jades the mind in general anyway. You can get caught into a growing cycle of disappointment. But the truth is, the movies never really change all that much--yes, some are better written and directed and performed than others but frankly there is more similar between each film than not--it's just that you do. So the most hardcore Star Wars fan is always doomed to be the most disappointed by it. That's why the saying goes, "No one hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans."
That's why I tend to go in with low expectations, just hoping to see all the stuff that I liked as a kid---as well as seeing how my nieces and young friends react to it. I can nitpick as well as any geek, sure, and get invested in worldbuild and lore (which this franchise has in spades and it is understandable why it is attractive). But in the end I go back and think... even if I didn't feel great, if I see some little kid walking out of the theater grinning ear to ear, and remember how that felt? Then that's what makes Star Wars worth it to me.
Now, there's stuff that I deeply invested in as a kid, and took as Serious Business when attempts were made... sometimes poorly... to add on to or reboot. Like, say, the 2007 reboot of The Bionic Woman. But I also remembering just ranting endlessly about that stuff and making myself miserable over it. And I mean I would FLY into "you ruined my childhood!" rages on the Internet over it, and just be angry and depressed all day. Over a tv show. And then I sort of just had a moment where I realized, hey, this show gave me huge amounts of joy. And the original version I can still watch and no one can take away the joy I felt as a child about it away from me. So why let these faceless showrunners have power over me by allowing them to make me feel miserable and angry all the time when in truth I have lost nothing? Maybe I didn't gain something I wanted, but I still haven't lost what I had. So I've been trying harder of late to not get sucked into nerdrage over my childhood faves. I can't tell anyone to do the same--it's your childhood, and your values. And I know, as I am sure many of you have witnessed, because I am a nerd I can still easily succumb to nerdrage (especially if it's over an ongoing series rather than one that's done, because it's harder to leave in the past). But I am trying harder to focus on the joy and entertainment I've received rather than ruin my own day over something I can't control anyway. And I apologize if I've contributed to any crankiness here.
For folks who have invested themselves in this franchise, I hope you can think about what HAS given you joy about it... and even if you decide you just need to be cranky about how the franchise has changed... which is fine... don't let that crankiness wreck the parts you did love for you. Because you did spend all that time and energy into it, and I hope that can still hold meaning for you.
...I think the blessing and curse of Star Wars is that the first one you see as a child is utterly magical. The Star Wars films, while ostensibly not children's movies, somehow speak to kids in a way that especially gets them excited. And I am of the (possibly controversial) opinion, that in the end any given Star Wars film is for the children who see it most of all, for the ones who are experiencing that magic and excitement for the first time.
But as a fan grows up and change and invest, the flaws and bizarrenesses and whatnot of the series appear, even as growing up generally jades the mind in general anyway. You can get caught into a growing cycle of disappointment. But the truth is, the movies never really change all that much--yes, some are better written and directed and performed than others but frankly there is more similar between each film than not--it's just that you do. So the most hardcore Star Wars fan is always doomed to be the most disappointed by it. That's why the saying goes, "No one hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans."
That's why I tend to go in with low expectations, just hoping to see all the stuff that I liked as a kid---as well as seeing how my nieces and young friends react to it. I can nitpick as well as any geek, sure, and get invested in worldbuild and lore (which this franchise has in spades and it is understandable why it is attractive). But in the end I go back and think... even if I didn't feel great, if I see some little kid walking out of the theater grinning ear to ear, and remember how that felt? Then that's what makes Star Wars worth it to me.
Now, there's stuff that I deeply invested in as a kid, and took as Serious Business when attempts were made... sometimes poorly... to add on to or reboot. Like, say, the 2007 reboot of The Bionic Woman. But I also remembering just ranting endlessly about that stuff and making myself miserable over it. And I mean I would FLY into "you ruined my childhood!" rages
So much of wookiepedia is stuff made up by fans it isnt funny.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is true of every single fandom there has ever been. The hardcore fans are more invested than the creators. I'm sorry it seems unfair to you, but it's the way of the world.
I'll politely disagree. While it might be the norm that hardcore fans are more invested than the creators, it doesn't need to be true. The CBS Star Trek shows have gone out of their way to hire writers who are Trek nerds. I haven't watched Picard yet, but for that show they have chosen a showrunner who is a huge fan (Michael Chabon) and put someone in the writer's room (Kirsten Beyer) who has written multiple novels and is a huge canon nerd.
That is the opposite of Kathleen Kennedy saying that they don't have source material for creating Star Wars. They don't have comics. C'mon man.
I understand that Star Wars doesn't have to do that. That they will sell lots of tickets to movies regardless, but I will continue to argue that their approach to the sequel trilogy is both lazy and disrespectful. There is a clear difference between the respect for the material and fandom that Marvel demonstrates vs Star Wars. I think you can see the fan reaction to this in the reaction to The Mandalorian. The Mandalorian isn't great, but it is miles better than the sequel trilogy, and most of the reason for that is that the two primary creators of it are someone who understands the cinematic DNA of the original trilogy and someone who is a canon nerd.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is true of every single fandom there has ever been. The hardcore fans are more invested than the creators. I'm sorry it seems unfair to you, but it's the way of the world.I'll politely disagree. While it might be the norm that hardcore fans are more invested than the creators, it doesn't need to be true. The CBS Star Trek shows have gone out of their way to hire writers who are Trek nerds. I haven't watched Picard yet, but for that show they have chosen a showrunner who is a huge fan (Michael Chabon) and put someone in the writer's room (Kirsten Beyer) who has written multiple novels and is a huge canon nerd.
That is the opposite of Kathleen Kennedy saying that they don't have source material for creating Star Wars. They don't have comics. C'mon man.
I understand that Star Wars doesn't have to do that. That they will sell lots of tickets to movies regardless, but I will continue to argue that their approach to the sequel trilogy is both lazy and disrespectful. There is a clear difference between the respect for the material and fandom that Marvel demonstrates vs Star Wars. I think you can see the fan reaction to this in the reaction to The Mandalorian. The Mandalorian isn't great, but it is miles better than the sequel trilogy, and most of the reason for that is that the two primary creators of it are someone who understands the cinematic DNA of the original trilogy and someone who is a canon nerd.
your hate for the mandalorian proves his point.
The CBS Star Trek shows have gone out of their way to hire writers who are Trek nerds. I haven't watched Picard yet, but for that show they have chosen a showrunner who is a huge fan (Michael Chabon) and put someone in the writer's room (Kirsten Beyer) who has written multiple novels and is a huge canon nerd.
That makes me sort of hopeful for the new Picard series, especially after Discovery seemed to take the opposite approach.
your hate for the mandalorian proves his point.This is true of every single fandom there has ever been. The hardcore fans are more invested than the creators. I'm sorry it seems unfair to you, but it's the way of the world.I'll politely disagree. While it might be the norm that hardcore fans are more invested than the creators, it doesn't need to be true. The CBS Star Trek shows have gone out of their way to hire writers who are Trek nerds. I haven't watched Picard yet, but for that show they have chosen a showrunner who is a huge fan (Michael Chabon) and put someone in the writer's room (Kirsten Beyer) who has written multiple novels and is a huge canon nerd.
That is the opposite of Kathleen Kennedy saying that they don't have source material for creating Star Wars. They don't have comics. C'mon man.
I understand that Star Wars doesn't have to do that. That they will sell lots of tickets to movies regardless, but I will continue to argue that their approach to the sequel trilogy is both lazy and disrespectful. There is a clear difference between the respect for the material and fandom that Marvel demonstrates vs Star Wars. I think you can see the fan reaction to this in the reaction to The Mandalorian. The Mandalorian isn't great, but it is miles better than the sequel trilogy, and most of the reason for that is that the two primary creators of it are someone who understands the cinematic DNA of the original trilogy and someone who is a canon nerd.
Did I somehow inadvertently express hate for The Mandalorian? I said it wasn’t great, by which I meant that it is not a great work of television. I enjoy the show immensely. It is a lot of fun and very pretty. I like the show.
I include myself when I mentioned positive fan reaction to The Mandalorian was positive overall.
|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
|
Did I somehow inadvertently express hate for The Mandalorian? I said it wasn’t great, by which I meant that it is not a great work of television. I enjoy the show immensely. It is a lot of fun and very pretty. I like the show.your hate for the mandalorian proves his point.This is true of every single fandom there has ever been. The hardcore fans are more invested than the creators. I'm sorry it seems unfair to you, but it's the way of the world.I'll politely disagree. While it might be the norm that hardcore fans are more invested than the creators, it doesn't need to be true. The CBS Star Trek shows have gone out of their way to hire writers who are Trek nerds. I haven't watched Picard yet, but for that show they have chosen a showrunner who is a huge fan (Michael Chabon) and put someone in the writer's room (Kirsten Beyer) who has written multiple novels and is a huge canon nerd.
That is the opposite of Kathleen Kennedy saying that they don't have source material for creating Star Wars. They don't have comics. C'mon man.
I understand that Star Wars doesn't have to do that. That they will sell lots of tickets to movies regardless, but I will continue to argue that their approach to the sequel trilogy is both lazy and disrespectful. There is a clear difference between the respect for the material and fandom that Marvel demonstrates vs Star Wars. I think you can see the fan reaction to this in the reaction to The Mandalorian. The Mandalorian isn't great, but it is miles better than the sequel trilogy, and most of the reason for that is that the two primary creators of it are someone who understands the cinematic DNA of the original trilogy and someone who is a canon nerd.
This is the first time I've encountered anyone who didn't think Mandalorian was fantastic. Which is cool and you have your opinion, but might be why your comment was construed as sarcastic dislike for it.