I'm playing Dead Suns AP right now. We have found numerous grenades, some spell ampoules and things like that. But not a single combat focused spell gem!
APs very often end up with a big dungeon. Casters, having limited resources, don't do much in dungeons. Spell gems would allow mystics and technomancers to have a bit more fun.
I really think there is a lack of spell gems in adventures. In fact, my mystic is level 4, playing through SFS (so quite a few adventures) and I don't remember once finding a combat focused spell gem.
If you take, for example, the first Dead Suns dungeon. I was level 2, with 4 spells (the maximum you can get at that level). There was a full dungeon with something like 8 fights. So, on average, I was having a spell to cast every 2 fights... Honestly, the combats were boring for me. And it was half of the AP.
So, of course, I have a limited vision, because I only remember the modules I played with my mystic. But my overall feeling is that I would love more spell gems. Most of the other classes were having things to loot, new weapons, grenades, some equipment, and most of the time, I was just getting the pieces of equipment they were trashing because of their new fancy toy.
A simple gem of Mind Thrust I would have made me smile.
I really think conceptors forget about spell casting classes when writing modules.
Also, we found mystic equipment at the end of this part of the AP... after the last fight. Considering I'm playing the AP through SFS, I was once again unable to use the spell gems or the staff. It's a bit frustrating.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was expecting this kind of answer.
But... you can use most of the same gear as everyone else. Fancy new light armor? Pistol? Use it.
Nope, you can't. Fancy new pistol, operative use it. And you, you get the trash pistol he was using previously. Being able to use an item doesn't make you the legitimate user of it. Mystic have first picks on spell gems, not on armors and weapons.
Also, I don't care of getting a new pistol, I don't have any ability to use it. It's like telling a soldier he should be happy to get an item giving him bonuses to diplomacy. Being able to use something doesn't make it interesting for your class.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was expecting this kind of answer.
But... you can use most of the same gear as everyone else. Fancy new light armor? Pistol? Use it.Nope, you can't. Fancy new pistol, operative use it. And you, you get the trash pistol he was using previously. Being able to use an item doesn't make you the legitimate user of it. Mystic have first picks on spell gems, not on armors and weapons.
Also, I don't care of getting a new pistol, I don't have any ability to use it. It's like telling a soldier he should be happy to get an item giving him bonuses to diplomacy. Being able to use something doesn't make it interesting for your class.
Operatives really don't care all that much what pistol they're using. Trick attack damage scales fast enough that they can do just fine with any low-level pistol. They're probably best of just grabbing three different cheap ones of various energy types.
Leaving the fancy pistols to the mystic.
Starfinder doesn't seem to believe in "spellcaster all day", it's more "spellcaster at the crucial moment". Mind Thrust is great for taking out an enemy with high AC or when you need to be really sure someone drops this round instead of the next round. But for trash mobs, you're supposed to use guns and yeah, kick back a little while the more combat focused class does the heavy lifting.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're not answering the question.
First, Spell Gems are items, Pistols are items. Why do we find loads of Pistols and no Spell Gems? Loot is supposed to be for everyone.
Second, the fancy pistol gets to the guy who uses it all the time and can actually hit with it, not to the guy who uses it when he has no more good things to do and who would like to have loot for his class and not spare loot for other classes.
And you can cast all day, as long as you have sufficient Spell Gems.
During the AP, we found a dozen of grenades, which are limited to 3 classes, and we fought only one enemy of these classes.
We found a Solarian crystal on the Solarian enemy.
We found a heavy machinegun on the Soldier enemy.
But no Spell Gem on the Mystic.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, you realize that you are saying nothing in line with the subject.
I say: We don't find enough Spell Gems.
You tell me "Deal with it". Thanks, I do. I play SFS, so I can buy what I need. But loot is fun, and I don't get my part of this fun :)
You also tell me "The one true build for a mystic doesn't cast spells". I don't care of your one true build. Mystic casts spells.
Then "only mystics can use spell gems, so they should be rare". No, Technomancers do, too. Then, it's not because something can be used that people use it. If you only give small arms as loot because "everyone can use it", I'm pretty sure your soldier will complain.
And, as a final note, yes, you can cast spells all day, you don't need a weapon. For that, you just need a few spell gems. In SFS, you can buy them, so, it's a non issue. But clearly, I would not play an AP with a non SFS caster character. There is not enough loot for them to be properly equiped.
You're not answering the question.
To be fair, it was a pretty pointless question.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To be fair, it was a pretty pointless question.
It looks like pointing out the lack of some class specific gear raises opposition. Everyone basicaly tells me that I should not expect spell gems as loot. I really don't get it. Do you have anything against spell gems?
And I must admit I'm a bit puzzled. You made me look at SFS pregenerated builds, and the Mystic doesn't have a single spell gem, and the Technomancer has only one at level 8.
I've then looked at PFS equivalent classes (namely Cleric, Sorcerer and Wizard) and all of them have scrolls at every level.
I really think conceptors have forgotten spell gems in their caster's builds. They should be basic equipment for any caster. Seeing Keskodai lvl8 with an MKII Serum of Healing instead of a Spell Gem of Mystic Cure II (25 more credits for 66% more efficiency...) is clearly troubling.
Anyway, I hope someone from Paizo staff will read my first post. Spell gems need more love!!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As for your final note, hundreds of players and thousands of hours of play time have proved that you cannot get by with just spells and no weapon in this game. Much like the time honored Primary Healer, Primary Spellcaster is not a supported role in this game.
As you want to speak about that, let's speak about it.
I take lvl8 Keskodai as Mystic build, and universal monster creation rules for basic monster stats (averaging the three arrays). I also consider SFS rules for buying objects. So, I'm quite close of "generic" rules.Taken from his sheet: Ranged corona laser pistol +8 (2d4+4 F; critical burn 1d4)
Average level 8 monster EAC: 19.66
Keskodai hits on a 11.66 for 9 average damage. Keskodai expected damage per round with his weapon is 4.77 (including criticals, but not critical effect).
With a full attack, you don't get much damage out of it, as you only hit on a 15.66.
A spell gem of Mind Thrust III deals 7d10 damage (average 38.5), with a Will Save for half, DC 20.
Average level 8 monster Will save: +9.66
Average damage for a Mind Thrust III: 28.54.
So, you need 6 shots to get the equivalent of a single Spell Gem.
The Corona pistol costs 3 times more than the Mind Thrust Spell Gem.
So, you need to shoot 18 times to get the equivalent of your weapon cost out of spell gems.
And then we can speak of the 15 standard actions you have lost firing. And the fact that you have only one trick when Spell gems give you more versatility as you can choose different spells.
So, when you say that a Mystic "can't get with no weapon", I clearly disagree. Keskodai can ditch his useless weapon (or just grab a level 1 pistol for harrying fire and such, as it's always a good ability to have) and start focusing on spell gems instead. He will clearly gain efficiency.
To be fair, it was a pretty pointless question.It looks like pointing out the lack of some class specific gear raises opposition.
Indifference. And puzzlement as to why you'd use trash SFS pregens as evidence of anything or why you assume Mystics/Technomancers are using small arms instead of longarms.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
It feels like there are 2 distinct things going on here.
The first: Spell gems are good loot and we should see spell gems as loot.
I would totally agree with this. Spell gems are good loot options, as they are yseful, varied and interesting. Thanks to the spell thrower fusion, any party can easily be capable of using them.
The second: Spellcasters need there to be spell gems as loot.
I absolutely cannot agree with this. Playing a technomancer in this same AP, I was easily able to make sure that I had useful things to do while rationing my spells, and others have done the same. Being unable to contribute to a reasonable degree when not casting at this level range is definitely a choice, rather than an immutable characteristic of either class.
It feels like there are 2 distinct things going on here.
I'm happy, because that's what I wanted to talk about.
The first: Spell gems are good loot and we should see spell gems as loot.
I would totally agree with this. Spell gems are good loot options, as they are yseful, varied and interesting. Thanks to the spell thrower fusion, any party can easily be capable of using them.
We both agree.
The second: Spellcasters need there to be spell gems as loot.
I absolutely cannot agree with this. Playing a technomancer in this same AP, I was easily able to make sure that I had useful things to do while rationing my spells, and others have done the same. Being unable to contribute to a reasonable degree when not casting at this level range is definitely a choice, rather than an immutable characteristic of either class.
I have a different point of view, but it's a bit more complex than just saying: You can't play a caster without spell gems.
What I think is: You can play a caster without Dexterity or Strength. So, basically, a caster which can't use a gun well enough to even care of buying one (my Mystic doesn't have a weapon at all). As I play SFS, all the money I would normally put on weapons goes in spell gems. So, right now, at level 5, I have 6 level 2 spell gems (for the price of a level 5 weapon), ranging from Mind Thrust to Summon Monster. As I have a buffer of spell gems, I don't have to ration my spells. Of course, I'm not casting like if there was no tomorrow, but, as I can't end up in spell starvation, I don't hesitate to cast all my spells.I feel my build is valid, on par with a build with weapons (I have played some modules with a Dexterity based mystic, and he was not performing better than I do, even worse in my point of view, but I don't think I'm objective on this point ;) ).
But... I've bought more than 3000 credits worth of spell gems. And that's why I say we "need" spell gems. As we have found not a single combat focused spell gems, I would have had to buy all these spell gems with party credits. It's more than half of what we have found. Clearly, if I had to play the same AP out of SFS, I would certainly have had less fun, because I would not have found enough spell gems to be properly equiped. That's why I say there's a lack of spell gems as loot, in my opinion. It's a bit like if there was no heavy weapons in the whole AP. You force the heavy weapon focused character to use the party credits to fill the lack of loot, and if you have multiple characters with such needs, you suddenly have issues.
As a side note, mystics and technomancers can't be played like clerics and wizards. People have found that weapons were a good way to play them. But spell gems is one, too. For the price of a weapon of your level, you buy 20 spell gems of your second highest spell level. Spell gems allow you to play a mystic like a pure caster, which is the way I like to play my mystic.
|
Yeah I ran this AP and gave the loot out that was written and at no time did the technomancer or mystic even use a spell gem. They fired guns like everyone else and did their major magic when it was plot appropriate. It is just the way that the game was designed, and changing that will require some work or use of 3PP that extend magic past 6 levels.
A couple observations:
1) There is sufficient down-time (due to Drift travel) in the AP that PCs can craft any gear they have sufficient Engineering and/or Mysticism ranks for (and know the spell for a spell gem). Crafting in Starfinder has a very low bar; basically just time (4 hours), money (UBPs), and skill ranks equal to item level.
2) At least before the last two installments (The Thirteenth Gate and Empire of Bones), the party has pretty easy access to various metropolises in the Pact Worlds to purchase gear, as well.
3) Spell gems (IMO) are useful for weapons with a spellthrower fusion (and Arcanamirium sages), but casters should be using spell chips in a computer that's either connected via a datajack or accessed through a telepathic user interface module (see Alien Archive 2, cerebric fungus). No need to worry about having a free hand and retrieving an item before use. Even spell chips are just to cast a couple extra spells if needed; or maybe to have access to one or two "utility" spells via purchase instead of learning.
Just add them in or ask the GM for them.
I would not expect enough spell gems to keep that type of character running to show up in the world in a published adventure, but where are you getting the idea that crafting their own spell gems would save them any money?