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Yea, but then I might as well have taken bodyguard which gets me the powerarmor and a nice armor bonus and group synergy.
Armor storm also gets you power armor. *shrug* Guard is good, too, but I personally prefer Armor Storm.
Hammer Fist gives you the best minimum damage on a Soldier. If you start with Str 18, your absolutely free 1st level damage is 1d4+6, which is essentially the same average damage as a tactical longsword (1d8+4), but without much swing.
Honestly in melee, the damage die means a lot less than your bonuses; I know a 7th level vesk soldier that uses a 3rd level disintigrator lash to devastating effect regardless of the 1d6 damage die because his flat bonus is +16. I'm the same level, and I don't net a whole lot more damage with my Yellow Star Nova Lance (3d4, with the same flat bonus). His average damage is 19.5 and mine is 23.5. 4 extra points is pretty inconsequential next to the monetary savings for him there...
Armor Storm really shines in Society play, where you are counting credits and can't just steal upgraded gear from enemies. I relied on either Unarmed or Hammer Fist for several levels before buying that lance. You also get a half price extra upgrade for your armor at 5th level, which is a heck of a value, seeing as a Mk. 4 Thermal Capacitor costs 120k credits.
Would I like interim levels for Hammer Fist? Yeah, I really would. Is it a bad power? Hell no. I out-damage my teammates regularly with just punching because of Melee Striker and Hammer Fist.
Man, what a bummer, It wasn't until reading this thread that I realized the glove weapons in the Armory don't count because they're not battlegloves. The Armory book has electrovore gloves at level 2 and 7 for 1d6 and 2d6 damage. I had thought those were to fill the Hammer Fist gap.
If you are getting power armor as part of your build, simply use the damage from the power armor's unarmed melee attack. The damage offered by power armor unarmed melee attacks scale pretty well throughout the game. Once u get past level 12 or so the damage falls off compared to other melee weapons, however it's not terrible.
Power armor can be an extremely rewarding path for your team especially if your GM allows you to make reasonable alterations to the armor (an example of an alteration I have spoken to with my GM is the unexplained inconsistency of the Capacity and usage. Why do most power armor suits have a usage of 1/hour while others have 1/min? I've compared and contrasted and there is little evidence for why the developers chose to make some with a 1/hour usage and others with a 1/minute usage.)
I chose to make a melee soldier (I wouldn't recommend melee in this game to any player as having played 10+ levels and almost an entire year of the game with a melee soldier, I can tell you melee is at a serious disadvantage in this game. I believe this is intentional and a design choice by the developers considering how little contributions have been made to melee oriented classes and choices since the game's release. A few things to note when choosing a melee class. There's currently no items which lower the penalty for a full attack action for melee oriented character while there is a gunner harness for heavy weapons and class features which lower the penalty for ranged attacks. KAC is tougher to hit by 10-15% than EAC. Melee attackers can't benefit from cover as easily as ranged attackers through the course of a combat. Reactions are limited to 1 per character per round.) and wish I had made him a Dex based solider as the options for increasing bonuses to attack rolls and lowering penalties are much better for ranged classes.
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I chose to make a melee soldier (I wouldn't recommend melee in this game to any player as having played 10+ levels and almost an entire year of the game with a melee soldier, I can tell you melee is at a serious disadvantage in this game. I believe this is intentional and a design choice by the developers considering how little contributions have been made to melee oriented classes and choices since the game's release. A few things to note when choosing a melee class. There's currently no items which lower the penalty for a full attack action for melee oriented character while there is a gunner harness for heavy weapons and class features which lower the penalty for ranged attacks. KAC is tougher to hit by 10-15% than EAC. Melee attackers can't benefit from cover as easily as ranged attackers through the course of a combat. Reactions are limited to 1 per character per round.) and wish I had made him a Dex based solider as the options for increasing bonuses to attack rolls and lowering penalties are much better for ranged classes.
I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at...Melee is your ticket to big damage numbers, and possibly the most important benefit to the rest of the party you can offer. It is the high-risk, high-reward play style that some players crave.
Melee has gotten some great new weapons and/or abilities in every new book, particularly Pact Worlds and Armory. One of the three new COM classes, the Vanguard, is primary melee.
Melee doesn't NEED items that lower penalties for a full attack, because they can flank or trip to get big bonuses already. Solarians get Flashing Strikes for a lowered penalty naturally.
Plenty of melee weapons hit EAC over KAC. That isn't different for ranged vs. melee.
Smart melee characters can get cover from the people they're fighting. If someone moves around their ally for a shot, they're often sitting ducks for the melee character's ranged teammates.
Yes, Reactions are limited to 1/round (unless you're a Vanguard), but that's 1 more Reaction per round than a ranged character is probably taking.
Ranged characters have to deal with cover way more than melee combatants; that's why they get so many more options for dealing with penalties.
Honestly, melee is super satisfying in Starfinder.
Signed,
Someone who punches all the jerks for the last year
Zoggy do you have any additional party members that are melee combatants as well?
The reason I ask is that while it's true there are small contributions to melee combat in each release it pales in comparison to ranged. In order to reduce the penalty for a full attack, you need an additional ally flanking they enemy. If you don't have that in your party, then you are at a distinct disadvantage compared to range combat.
Flanking requires an ally in melee. This means u need either summoned creatures or allies near your target.
Tripping is a combat maneuver. Combat maneuver's are notoriously hard to accomplish without specializing with gear and feats to get even odds for success. Further, if you waste an action to Trip an enemy and it succeeds, they can just stand up before you can take advantage of it. Thus it's a completely wasted action for giving you a bonus. It can give your allies bonuses IF they are melee otherwise it makes hitting with ranged attacks more difficult.
I agree that the weapon choices are fine for EAC vs KAC.. but.. really.. why would you EVER choose a KAC weapon over an EAC one if EAC is almost always easier to hit over KAC? Makes you wonder why they made 2 different AC's for the game. Bad development.
I disagree about getting cover. This is almost impossible as a melee combatant to do on any consistent basis due to attacks of opportunity and the way movement works in Starfinder. If you are in melee combat, any ranged attacker can shoot you who has LoS. You can't move to an enemy, hit them, and move back in to cover without provoking at least one AoO, possibly more depending on combatant positions.
I've had a tough time enjoying melee in this rule set as it's EXTREMELY hard to find ways to improve your potency and contribution as a melee attacker. We have had to house rule quite a few things to make it more palatable. If I could do it over, I would have made a ranged soldier.
Man, this has been the exact opposite of my experience in Starfinder and if I were at a proper keyboard I would try to do an honest breakdown of where I disagree. For now, I’ll offer the anecdotal evidence that in the game I’m running for some friends, our melee Blitz Soldier has been wrecking SO MUCH FACE. She’s not quite as reliable as our Operative for hurting enemies every round but she is very much a tactical lynchpin for the group. She stops other melee specialists from making it to the squishier characters and always gets in the face of spellcasters and ranged specialists
Yeah, Magyar’s experience is pretty obviously nonstandard. Not sure why, could be poor rules understanding, bad tactics, or poor analysis of what is actually going on.
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Zoggy do you have any additional party members that are melee combatants as well?
Sometimes! Sometimes not! Starfinder Society!
But the big thing is that anyone can flank if they have a melee weapon out; that operative has a pistol in one hand can have a knife in the other. It can be tricky, but a coordinated party will look for advantages like that.
The reason I ask is that while it's true there are small contributions to melee combat in each release it pales in comparison to ranged. In order to reduce the penalty for a full attack, you need an additional ally flanking they enemy. If you don't have that in your party, then you are at a distinct disadvantage compared to range combat.
Honestly, even if the melee person doesn't hulk smash the foes, they provide an invaluable service by standing in front and absorbing attention from the foes.
But smart parties will not leave that money on the table. I have a Witchwyrd Envoy in the APs that is based around providing flanks while not needing to attack at all. The Solarian definitely appreciates it.
Flanking requires an ally in melee. This means u need either summoned creatures or allies near your target.
I agree that the weapon choices are fine for EAC vs KAC.. but.. really.. why would you EVER choose a KAC weapon over an EAC one if EAC is almost always easier to hit over KAC? Makes you wonder why they made 2 different AC's for the game. Bad development.
Well there are a lot of reasons for going KAC over EAC. Their damage dice are generally higher. Particular weapons may have features you like or that combo with your abilities. Some creatures have special defenses against energy attacks but not against physical. I also do it when I need to use my unarmed attacks to knock someone out. But yes, it is generally better to go with energy weapons.
I disagree about getting cover. This is almost impossible as a melee combatant to do on any consistent basis due to attacks of opportunity and the way movement works in Starfinder. If you are in melee combat, any ranged attacker can shoot you who has LoS. You can't move to an enemy, hit them, and move back in to cover without provoking at least one AoO, possibly more depending on combatant positions.
You get Soft Cover from creatures. A melee fighter standing with a foe between it and the ranged enemies gets +4 AC. That's what I mean.
I've had a tough time enjoying melee in this rule set as it's EXTREMELY hard to find ways to improve your potency and contribution as a melee attacker. We have had to house rule quite a few things to make it more palatable. If I could do it over, I would have made a ranged soldier.
That's fair. I enjoy it, though. It helps when the party is able to maximize their tactics and resources for sure, though.
Perhaps my experience is the non standard.
We don't meta game at our table. In the 30+ years of roleplaying I have enjoyed I look back at that time and find that the most memorable and enjoyable memories are when we just allowed ourselves to do things without attempting to maximize them.
Sure you can sit there at the table and say.. 'you use this ability and I will use that ability and it will give us all +2 bonuses to this and then we can set up a combo so that after 2 or 3 rounds our Mystic can cast their save or die spell and it will succeed on a roll of 3 or better'. It's certainly possible to do that, but it's also just...not role playing.
As a result, all these combinations which give bonuses and penalties are only 'discovered' through the course of the game. That Soft Cover hasn't come up in our game. As a result, my character wouldn't actively consider utilizing it until he experiences it or learns about it in some way. Perhaps accidentally, or reading it from a tactician manual. His weapon choices aren't maximized either. He used a tactical pike until lvl 9. Simply because he won it from an enemy in a fight by rolling a natural 20 on a disarm attempt. It was meaningful to him as a weapon and has become a running joke among our table. (Sadly he was forced to give it to a dragon in parley.. it was a painful moment for Brosni!)
I'm not a fan of meta gaming a system. I, as the player, know the rules and spells, and abilities of classes. That doesn't mean my character knows them or is even interested in knowing them. If, during the course of the game, my character discovers them and utilizes them then it's interesting. Otherwise it's just playing a game and not role-playing a game.
Yeah, Magyar’s experience is pretty obviously nonstandard. Not sure why, could be poor rules understanding, bad tactics, or poor analysis of what is actually going on.
Or it could be that we don't meta game. And just let the characters learn and experience the game world much like u would learn and experience things in real life. I don't go through life tactically analyzing my driving to see if drafting on an 18 wheeler will give me a +2 to gas consumption.
Man, this has been the exact opposite of my experience in Starfinder and if I were at a proper keyboard I would try to do an honest breakdown of where I disagree. For now, I’ll offer the anecdotal evidence that in the game I’m running for some friends, our melee Blitz Soldier has been wrecking SO MUCH FACE. She’s not quite as reliable as our Operative for hurting enemies every round but she is very much a tactical lynchpin for the group. She stops other melee specialists from making it to the squishier characters and always gets in the face of spellcasters and ranged specialists
Don't misunderstand. I didn't say my character is under performing. Brosni hits harder than anyone else in the group. But he's a one trick pony (and while the trick is good it's still just ONE trick.
My beef is with the melee options in the game and the developers obvious bias for ranged combat.
If you play your soldier as a murder hobo whose solution to everything is combat, it is probably a very satisfying proposition. However, I find that when compared to other gaming systems I have played, melee combat in this system is decidedly lacking. Especially if you consider the summation holistically.
On the flip side of that beef, I also freely admit that ranged combat in this system is far more engaging, tactical, and satisfying than many other game systems. You can just do so much MORE in this system for ranged combat and it scales extremely well.
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Yeah, Magyar’s experience is pretty obviously nonstandard. Not sure why, could be poor rules understanding, bad tactics, or poor analysis of what is actually going on.Or it could be that we don't meta game. And just let the characters learn and experience the game world much like u would learn and experience things in real life. I don't go through life tactically analyzing my driving to see if drafting on an 18 wheeler will give me a +2 to gas consumption.
If you’re playing a character who doesn’t understand tactics and is kind of an idiot in combat then I agree that playing intelligently as a player would be metagaming. There are plenty of dumb soldiers in the real world who get themselves killed or are ineffectual in killing the enemy through poor choices, so this is a very valid role playing choice.
The puzzling part is why you were making in character arguments about melee combat by the Starfinder rules that others have been refuting in this thread. I can see why a low intelligence Soldier in a game would tell another PC that melee sucks because KAC is hard to hit because you don’t want to metagame and your PC is kind of a doofus who doesn’t know melee energy weapons hit more easily than physical weapons, but why bring that in character argument to this thread talking about the effectiveness of the actual rules?
Yeah, Magyar’s experience is pretty obviously nonstandard. Not sure why, could be poor rules understanding, bad tactics, or poor analysis of what is actually going on.Or it could be that we don't meta game. And just let the characters learn and experience the game world much like u would learn and experience things in real life. I don't go through life tactically analyzing my driving to see if drafting on an 18 wheeler will give me a +2 to gas consumption.If you’re playing a character who doesn’t understand tactics and is kind of an idiot in combat then I agree that playing intelligently as a player would be metagaming. There are plenty of dumb soldiers in the real world who get themselves killed or are ineffectual in killing the enemy through poor choices, so this is a very valid role playing choice.
The puzzling part is why you were making in character arguments about melee combat by the Starfinder rules that others have been refuting in this thread. I can see why a low intelligence Soldier in a game would tell another PC that melee sucks because KAC is hard to hit because you don’t want to metagame and your PC is kind of a doofus who doesn’t know melee energy weapons hit more easily than physical weapons, but why bring that in character argument to this thread talking about the effectiveness of the actual rules?
Gotcha. I guess because i have been analyzing the system for some months now and when you step back and take a overall holistic view of the game, you begin to notice all the little things that penalize melee combatants as opposed to ranged combatants.
Here's a small example.
Cleave, and Great Cleave. These 2 feats seem pretty great for a melee combatant. On closer inspection, they aren't really all that great though. For starters they both use your standard action. This means you can't take a full action. They also have strict grouping requirements. This means that it's much more situational and unless you are in melee combat OFTEN with multiple opponents (which you could be) then these feats won't see a lot of mileage. Well.. of course.. that why they are feats etc.. because the effect is pretty powerful. Hitting every adjacent enemy of a single target can potentially deal a TON of damage!!!
Yea.. agreed. Guess what.
Ranged attackers get this set of feats for free. It's called the Automatic property.
Well, that's not the same you might say!! And you could make a case for that, but it's essentially the same thing with some minor differences. Go through the pros and cons of each and compare them. Use them both. You will essentially find that they are the same thing. Automatic doesn't hit as hard but can almost ALWAYS be used to hit MORE targets so the damage output is generally equivalent.
But wait.. there's more. You can also just get a blast weapon. This does essentially the same thing as Automatic with a few advantages. You can ignore concealment and you can get a critical hit and you don't deplete you FULL ammunition. A lvl 12 Coolant Sprayer, glacial is a HELL of a weapon. 40 ft cone, 20 ft wide with Entangle and 2d6 +12 damage. It ignores concealment AND I can crit with it. YES PLEASE! One attack per round for an unweildy?? That's ok. This system was engineered for single powerful attacks so this isn't a big deal.
Take a look at Archaic special property. Not any ranged weapons floating around with this special property.
Take a look at the skills. How many of them have Str as the attribute modifier? I've done an analysis on skills in this system as well and unless you are maximizing and specializing your skills then you will fail more rolls than you will succeed unless the rolls are static based rolls. When you focus on melee combat your skills will take a hit that a ranged combatant doesn't take.
Saving throws are another area where melee combatants lose out. None of them utilize Str as a modifier. While the soldier's weakest saving throw is Reflex. A Dex modified saving throw.
Ship combat... another sore place for melee combatants.
The list goes on when you analyze effective equipment utilization etc..
All that being said, melee combat can be deeply satisfying when you do twice or three or even five times the damage of your ranged counterparts. I feel a huge sense of worth when Brosni hits for 45 damage and my Mystic rolls a measly 29 damage on Mind blast and half of that damage is lost because the enemy saves.
If you look at a narrow focus on melee vs ranged the disparity may not seem that large, but when you analyze the system as a whole, you start putting together all the small disparities and they begin to add up. My GM and I have started house ruling a LOT of things to give melee combat more parity, but neither of us enjoy doing this.
You only have 1 trick. It needs to perform VERY consistently to be of any value.
For all u guys out there looking for something fun to do with a ranged soldier go grab urself a Cathode Cannon and the Electric Arc gear boost. 10 ft wide lightning bolt!!
You have to yell "LIGHTNING BOLT" every time you use it though for maximum effect!
2d12 + 8 (potentially MORE see the Bombard Fighting Style ) in a 10 ft line that can arc 8 more damage to enemies for each enemy you hit in the line!!
Nothing like a little BBQ!
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For all u guys out there looking for something fun to do with a ranged soldier go grab urself a Cathode Cannon and the Electric Arc gear boost. 10 ft wide lightning bolt!!
You have to yell "LIGHTNING BOLT" every time you use it though for maximum effect!
2d12 + 8 (potentially MORE see the Bombard Fighting Style ) in a 10 ft line that can arc 8 more damage to enemies for each enemy you hit in the line!!
Nothing like a little BBQ!
Now, what you do with the Cathode Cannon is you put the Continuous fusion on it. Spend an extra charge and that 10 ft line stays on till your next turn.
Now if only it was fire damage instead.
For all u guys out there looking for something fun to do with a ranged soldier go grab urself a Cathode Cannon and the Electric Arc gear boost. 10 ft wide lightning bolt!!
You have to yell "LIGHTNING BOLT" every time you use it though for maximum effect!
2d12 + 8 (potentially MORE see the Bombard Fighting Style ) in a 10 ft line that can arc 8 more damage to enemies for each enemy you hit in the line!!
Nothing like a little BBQ!
Now, what you do with the Cathode Cannon is you put the Continuous fusion on it. Spend an extra charge and that 10 ft line stays on till your next turn.
Now if only it was fire damage instead.
Indeed. Brosni is partial to fire weapons as well since he's a Vesk