So I'd like to get some clarification regarding how much damage the Mesmerist's Painful Stare ability is supposed to do. I found the following thread which asks the question quite well, but didn't want to necro the thread so I'll link it here.
Okay, I have a quick question about the 'painful stare' ability for the Mesmerist:
When an attack that deals damage hits the target of a mesmerist's hypnotic stare, the mesmerist can cause the target to take an amount of additional damage equal to 1/2 the mesmerist's class level (minimum 1).
The mesmerist can use this ability as a free action, and can use it even if it isn't his turn. If the mesmerist uses this ability to increase his own damage, the additional damage increases by 1d6 points for every 3 class levels the mesmerist possesses. This damage is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit. A mesmerist can trigger this ability only once per round, but a single creature can take damage from multiple mesmerists' painful stares in a round.
Alright, for this example, let's assume that the mesmerist is 20th level: which of the following options represents how much damage the 'painful stare' ability would do if the mesmerist used it on himself...
a) 6d6 + 10 extra damage
or
b) 6d6 extra damage
I only ask because the wording almost seems to imply that the 'd6' precision damage replaces the previous 'flat bonus' to damage.
The two replies seem to agree that in the example provided the Mesmerist should deal a) 6d6 + 10 extra damage. If this is the case it would put the Mesmerist only about 1d6 damage behind the Rogues Sneak Attack progression (10d6 at lvl 20) in terms of average damage (3d6 being 10.5 damage on average).
So far I think this seems pretty balanced. I'd just like to confirm that this is in fact the intent of the design of the ability.
What confuses me is when we consider the Intense Pain feat, which states the following:
Intense Pain (Combat, Stare)
You deal additional damage when using your painful stare.
Prerequisite(s): Mesmerist level 7th, painful stare class feature.
Benefit(s): When you use your painful stare ability to increase your own damage, you deal an additional 1d6 points of damage. This damage increases to 2d6 at Mesmerist level 12th and to 3d6 at Mesmerist level 18th.
When you use painful stare to augment an ally’s damage, the target of the painful stare takes 1 additional point of damage for every 4 Mesmerist levels you possess.
The extra d6's to damage are pretty strait forward, but the way its worded regarding the extra added to ally's damage makes me rethink the intent of the base Painful Stare ability. It seems like there are 3 ways you could interpret Intense Pain:
1) the +1 per 4 Mesmerist levels improves the "base" damage done when allies do damage which then also is added to bonus xd6 damage added when its the Mesmerist's attack.
2) the +1 per 4 Mesmerist levels improves the damage done by allies, but does not get added to the bonus xd6 damage. But the "base" damage done by allies is added to the xd6 damage when its the Mesmerist's attack.
3) the Painful Stare "base" damage is only applied to an allies attack, and is improved by Intense Pain as written. Then the Painful Stare damage changes from 1/2 Mesmerist level damage on an attack to 1d6 damage per three Mesmerist levels when applied to the Mesmerist's attack.
Options 1 and 3 seem relatively straight forward, while option 3 honestly seems far to convoluted to be true.
If option 1 is true it means that at Level 20 a Mesmerist would deal 9d6+10+5 damage with his Painful Stare, 46.5 on average which is just shy of 13d6. Even when considering that Rogues would be able to take Accomplished Sneak Attacker which would put them at 11d6 sneak attack damage this seems high to me. Especially when we then consider that Painful Stare mechanic is more easily achieved than sneak attack, being able to apply it at range with no extra feats required and a very strong argument that it can be applied to spells including Magic Missile.
Option 3 would mean that with Intense Pain Mesmerists would deal 9d6 damage on their own attacks putting them just shy of a Rogues sneak attack, but getting the advantage that their Painful Stare ability is easier achieve as a mechanic.
Sorry if that was confusing, but I hope some discerning GM's or Designers out there can decipher all that. I just want to make sure I understand how Painful Stare was intended to work.
Sorry for the bump, but anyone else have any input?
You lost me somewhere in that convoluted and confusing reasoning. It is that kind of thing that can become trickier to explain than it is to actually understand. I suspect you've mixed up your options, even.
I was about to redo the whole calculation step by step but I don't think that's the issue.
Rather : don't compare it to sneak attacks. At the very least, don't base all your logic on that comparison.
Painful stare will never happen more than once per round.
Sneak Attacks will happen with every single attack that qualifies.
Painful Stare is easy to qualify for : look at thendude, spend a swift. Done.
SA can happen a lot more often, but actual conditions have to be met. Dangerous ones, if you are but a fragile rogue exposing yourself to get that sweet, sweet flank.
Painful Stare can indeed deal more damage on a single occurence, with some investment.
A two weapon fighting slayer should trigger quite a few SA on a full-round.
That's difference enough to justify slightly different numbers.
As for Intense Pain, it's a shame it's worded the way it is. Something closer to the original ability would've been more explicit.
I've actually gone back and forth on this, but in the end the rule is (usually) : you are your own ally.
I believe that applies here.
In which case, you'd get both the flat bonus and the extra dices, while your buddies only get the flat bonus.
I could be wrong, it could be an exception, but that's how I'd rule it.
You lost me somewhere in that convoluted and confusing reasoning. It is that kind of thing that can become trickier to explain than it is to actually understand. I suspect you've mixed up your options, even.
I was about to redo the whole calculation step by step but I don't think that's the issue.Rather : don't compare it to sneak attacks. At the very least, don't base all your logic on that comparison.
Painful stare will never happen more than once per round.
Sneak Attacks will happen with every single attack that qualifies.Painful Stare is easy to qualify for : look at thendude, spend a swift. Done.
SA can happen a lot more often, but actual conditions have to be met. Dangerous ones, if you are but a fragile rogue exposing yourself to get that sweet, sweet flank.Painful Stare can indeed deal more damage on a single occurence, with some investment.
A two weapon fighting slayer should trigger quite a few SA on a full-round.That's difference enough to justify slightly different numbers.
As for Intense Pain, it's a shame it's worded the way it is. Something closer to the original ability would've been more explicit.
I've actually gone back and forth on this, but in the end the rule is (usually) : you are your own ally.
I believe that applies here.
In which case, you'd get both the flat bonus and the extra dices, while your buddies only get the flat bonus.I could be wrong, it could be an exception, but that's how I'd rule it.
Thanks, I think you make some excellent points here. I was also thinking of Manifold Stare in the back of my mind allowing for more Painful Stare applications each round, but the fact that a player would have to take this as a feat three times to get four Painful Stares each round is a pretty huge cost. So I think your right, that's not a fair comparison with how much extra damage a Rogue (at least in melee) could do vs a Mesmerist.
I think the other big comparison I'm making in my head is with a Ranged Rogue or an Arcane Trickster trying to go for Sneak Attacks at range each round. It feels mostly balanced to me (even if they get the flat damage + the bonus d6 damage) if the Mesmerist has to roll a ranged attack or at least a ranged touch attack since Rogues or AT have to work so hard to make this work, but for Mesmerists it seems they can get this to work with even just a Magic Missile for almost automatic damage with all their bonus damage each round. I did alot of reading on the Magic Missile question and I have to agree that even by RAW its pretty clear that it would trigger Painful Stare for the bonus damage. I will acknowledge that there are some relatively easy ways to stop a Magic Missile, so I have some solutions if I ever felt it was a problem.
I just want to be sure that adding the flat bonus with the d6's from Painful Stare is what was intended so that I'm not giving an unfair advantage to a Mesmerist over a Ranged Rogue or AT.