
Kathoan |
We had a situation come up last night that caused some debate and I am still unclear on how the ruling should go as there are some conflicting rules. I did read all the other dragging threads but they are old and none of them add cover to the confusion.
In my example the Ally1 walked through the open doorway and was attacked by Enemy 1 (who was hidden). Ally 1 became Paralyses and dropped prone.
Later in combat Ally 2 waned to drag ally 1 away from harm.
As a standard action he wanted to reach through the doorway and drag ally 1 through. As the DM i intially thought this would cause an AoO becuase Ally 2 is reaching into Ally 1s hex, picking him up and dragging him away.
Enemy 1 > Ally 1 > Enemy 2
--Wall--> Doorway> --Wall--
Empty > Ally 2 > Empty
The table disagreed saying no AoO should be given because Ally 2 has Cover (granted by the wall). I agree that this wall cover would prevent AoO in most cases, like if ally 1 wanted to attack an enemy and then walk through the doorway past Ally 2 then the wall would prevent an AoO. But since Ally 2 is reaching into Ally 1s hex and picking him up (like picking up an item or moving a heavy object) i assumed this would be the action that provokes the AoO.
So what do we think. I think Ally 1 should NOT get AoO because he is forceably being moved and i think any time movement is forced you should be no AoO.
I think Ally 2 should get an AoO from Enemy1 and Enemy 2 and that AoO would be caused by "picking up an item in a threatened square"
I think Ally 2 would NOT provoke by dragging because the wall provides cover.
Side note: do we think the ally could drag from his current position? or does he have to go into Ally 1s hex to initiate the grab

DM_Blake |

No AoO.
Whatever you do that provokes, it provokes IN YOUR SPACE. This is true even if your action involves other squares like picking up an adjacent item - you are still in your own space so you provoke in your space, not in the other space. Since Ally 2 is in a space with cover, he is immune to provoking AoOs from those Enemies.
Here's another example:
Entering an enemy's occupied space always provokes. If you attack an adjacent enemy, say, with a dagger, your arm must enter his space so you are reaching into that occupied space and therefore you would always provoke when you attack adjacent enemies. But you really don't because you're still in your own space, even though you are reaching into an adjacent space.
The same is true for reaching into a threatened space to grab an object or an ally.
And you're right, the paralyzed ally does not provoke by being dragged away.

Guru-Meditation |

FAQ
Can you pick up or manipulate an object in a square within your reach? Does this provoke an AoO? Does it provoke even if the foe can reach the object, but not your space?
The rules are a little hazy here, but to put it simply, you can affect objects and creatures within your reach. When picking up or manipulating objects, you generally provoke an attack of opportunity, but only against foes that can reach your space.
You do not provoke attacks of opportunity from foes that cannot reach you, no matter what action you are taking, even if it includes reaching into a threatened space. Although it might seem realistic to allow an attack in such a case, it would make the game far too complicated.

Kathoan |
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According to the rules as I understand it. there is no AoO when you are being forced to move as a general rule.
examples being made by moving enemies with Drag / Reposition and Bull Rush.
An enemy being moved by a drag does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Drag feat.
An enemy being moved by a reposition does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Reposition feat.
An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat.
I think that is mostly to prevent people from grappling a foe and running them around the room to have all their friends attack it for free.

NobodysHome |

Since this is the most recent thread my search-fu found, here's a quick resurrection:
(1) Ghoul paralyzes PC #1
(2) Ghoul performs coup de grace on PC #1, but he survives
(2) PC #2 moves up behind PC #1 and drags him away
Is this really an "uncontested" action?
The layout in squares is:
Ghoul --> PC #1 --> PC #2
So, the ghoul can't reach PC #2. From discussions on other threads, PC #2 can drag PC #1 without having to make any kind of roll as long as he's strong enough. And you can't force someone else to get an AoO, so PC #1 can't be subject to an AoO.
My "personal" take is that PC #2 has to move into PC #1's square to initiate what is essentially a 'free' grapple on PC #1, therefore PC #2 takes one AoO from the ghoul and then gets away.
Others vehemently disagree, so I'd like to raise the thread (AGAIN) on, "What happens when you try to drag your unconscious friend away from immediate ongoing danger?"

DM_Blake |

Your "personal take" is a house rule. There is no RAW to support that you must move into a prone character's space and grapple him in order to move him.
Note that in Pathfinder you DON'T enter an enemy's space to initiate a grapple, so why would you do that for an ally?
Also note that grapples are usually not "free", essentially or otherwise, unless you have a special ability (e.g. Grab) that makes it free.
You can always reach into an adjacent square (unless you have 0 reach which usually means you're Tiny or smaller). PC #2 can reach into PC #1's square easily enough and can "manipulate an object" (the paralyzed PC) as much as he wants. It provokes, but he's out of the ghoul's threat range so that's not a problem either.
There is a little room for an argument about whether manipulating an object applies to a paralyzed creature. That's probably a GM's call. If the GM doesn't like it, just use the Drag combat maneuver and remember the paralyzed ally has a STR and DEX of 0 which should significantly lower his CMD, making him easy to drag.

Fernn |

We had a situation come up last night that caused some debate and I am still unclear on how the ruling should go as there are some conflicting rules. I did read all the other dragging threads but they are old and none of them add cover to the confusion.
In my example the Ally1 walked through the open doorway and was attacked by Enemy 1 (who was hidden). Ally 1 became Paralyses and dropped prone.
Later in combat Ally 2 waned to drag ally 1 away from harm.
As a standard action he wanted to reach through the doorway and drag ally 1 through. As the DM i intially thought this would cause an AoO becuase Ally 2 is reaching into Ally 1s hex, picking him up and dragging him away.Enemy 1 > Ally 1 > Enemy 2
--Wall--> Doorway> --Wall--
Empty > Ally 2 > EmptyThe table disagreed saying no AoO should be given because Ally 2 has Cover (granted by the wall). I agree that this wall cover would prevent AoO in most cases, like if ally 1 wanted to attack an enemy and then walk through the doorway past Ally 2 then the wall would prevent an AoO. But since Ally 2 is reaching into Ally 1s hex and picking him up (like picking up an item or moving a heavy object) i assumed this would be the action that provokes the AoO.
So what do we think. I think Ally 1 should NOT get AoO because he is forceably being moved and i think any time movement is forced you should be no AoO.
I think Ally 2 should get an AoO from Enemy1 and Enemy 2 and that AoO would be caused by "picking up an item in a threatened square"
I think Ally 2 would NOT provoke by dragging because the wall provides cover.
Side note: do we think the ally could drag from his current position? or does he have to go into Ally 1s hex to initiate the grab
Drag:
"You can attempt to drag a foe as a standard action. You can only drag an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. The aim of this maneuver is to drag a foe in a straight line behind you without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Drag feat or a similar ability, initiating a drag provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.If your attack is successful, both you and your target are moved 5 feet back, with your opponent occupying your original space and you in the space behind that in a straight line. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD, you can drag the target back an additional 5 feet. You must be able to move with the target to perform this maneuver. If you do not have enough movement, the drag goes to the maximum amount of movement available to you and ends.
An enemy(ally) being moved by a drag does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Drag feat. You cannot move a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your movement, the drag ends adjacent to that creature."
SO based on the only rules we have for dragging here is what we have:
"initiating a drag provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver."
Not surrounding enemies, not ranged assassins, not the target's great grandmother, but the target. In OP's case, the target is a paralyzed ally.
"with your opponent occupying your original space and you in the space behind that in a straight line."
You do not enter your opponents square. This is very similar to how Grappling does not enter an opponent's square. At all times you are each in your own square.
"An enemy being moved by a drag does not provoke an attack of opportunity"
Most likely because as we all know, each character turn lasts about 6 seconds, dragging someone would happen relatively fast enough for the ghouls not to have a chance to attack the prone player. And since The player dragging has cover because of the stone walls, This is the best solution to this problem that OP faces.
It is also worth noting that being prone/helpless does not prevent spells, attacks, or maneuvers performed onto you.
If you explain to your GM, "I want to pull my friend into safety" and he says "well you take Aoo's"
Then just respond, "okay, then I would like to perform a combat maneuver check to drag. Since my target is paralyzed, his effective CMD is 10 - 6(0 strength) - 6(0 Dex) - 4 (penalties for being prone also apply to CMD) + bab = -8 + Bab.
Then explain to him the rules as I described above.