Necromancy and me Part 2, The quest for more imput from the forums.

[Danthulhu]

Okay, so I've put on my thinking cap and have expanded a bit on my original ideas in this thread.

For those who want the short version, this is a a project I'm working on. My goal is to give some attention to the school of necromancy. To explore some of the depth the school offers and possibly define some of this depth for the sake of interest and future projects.

I would Love imput and discussion.

Glossary:
The Cycle: The cycle of Life and Death, (positive and negative energies,) that allows existence to function.

Necromantic Sub-Schools

Bioturgy: In studying the processes of life and death Necromancy has learned much of biology. The building blocks of the biological form: skin, hair muscle, fat, nerves, bones, and blood. Unlike Transmutation, the subschool of Bioturgy can only manipulate living bodies, not transform it.

Curses: Necromancy is the study of life and death, somewhere between the two are a multitude of decrepitudes and inflictions that can happen to a person. These are what make up the subschool of Curses, from impeding and harassment to outright disabling and crippling.

Life: Arguably the core of most necromantic workings outside of study of Undeath, the sub-school of life focuses on the manipulation of positive energy and negative energy within an environment. Contrary to stereotype this school contains the ability to heal as well as harm. Though Necromancers have yet to develop spells on par with the healing abilities of most non-arcane casters, they have found their own solutions.

Psychopompy: The most esoteric subschool, Psychopompy is the study of the Soul and it’s role in life and death. The Necromancer studies souls of the living and dead, is able to call upon souls that are not yet past the boneyard, and is able to interact with spiritual entities that were formerly living(petitioners or ghosts). These Necromancers often study haunts to understand how souls without bodies are able to create connections to the material plane.

Undeath: While the sub-schools of Biomancy and Life work within the natural limitations of the Cycle, undeath is the study of magic moving beyond those limitations. Undeath is the subversion, perversion, and reversal of the cycle of life and death. Though maligned due to its intimate relationship with the Undead, it’s study does not necessarily end at the creation of life-hating malicious entities.

New Stuff
So, I've done a small survey of Necromancy spells from Paizo's core books, and have noticed that there seems to be a few holes here and there, either a couple spells or very inneffective spells.
In the necromancy spell school I noticed a lack of:
-Anti-Undead Spells
-Blood Manipulation
-Communication with the Dead/Dying
-Beneficial biological manipulation
-HP recovery spells
-Positive energy Damage
-Non-Evil curse spells
Anything I miss?

[Kayerloth]

Few questions to stir the pot.

What sort of thing did you mean or envision as an Anti-Undead spell? The rough equivalent of Antiplant Shell or Antilife Shell type of thing?

What additional power or ability would you see in communication with the dead beyond Speak with Dead? Something that doesn't require a 'functional' corpse? No need to have an intact jaw, for example?

Doesn't/don't HP recovery spells belong in the Conjuration(Healing) school even if not divine? How would you avoid just duplicating Divine healing spells? I personally like to keep things fairly separated and not duplicated but under Necromancy it does say manipulate life force. Necromancy has several spells that debuff via fatigue and exhaustion. Perhaps some spells that do the reverse and I don't mean like Restoration but literal buffs instead. The question then is what sort of buff results

Non-evil curse? Example? I suppose there could be a ton of them just like most 'blast' spells are not evil but love to get pointed in the correct direction.

Biggest issue I see is overlap with other schools is going to be a frequent thing and hence keeping the flavor within the schools. Might be good to find which spells out there seem to 'step' on Necromancy toes (and vice versa as written) such as Consecrate and Desecrate both of which are Evocation (alignment) school. Of course once you start looking its easy to see how much they already step on each others toes.

Runs away for now to look over Necromancy spells on Archives of Nethys since there are a lot of them there that I am not familiar with at all.

[Quixote]

I'm sure this has been said many times before, but I'll throw in one of my two cents: the Conjuration (healing) spells don't need to be Conjuration spells at all. Why not just shift them over to Necromancy? Conjuration gets an insane amount of stuff as it is.

Also, and this may be less popular, why not give more classes access to basic healing magic? The fact that "we need a cleric" is still a cry so often heard around the table should say something. I've got two games in the works, and neither of them has a cleric, druid or even a bard or a paladin. I've slapped a few Cure spells onto the sorcerer's spell list and have no regrets.

[Edward the Necromancer]

Quixote wrote:

I'm sure this has been said many times before, but I'll throw in one of my two cents: the Conjuration (healing) spells don't need to be Conjuration spells at all. Why not just shift them over to Necromancy? Conjuration gets an insane amount of stuff as it is.

Funny thing is in the 3.0 version of DnD the Cure spells were Necromancy. It wasn't until 3.5 that the Cure spells were made into Conjuration. A change that Pathfinder kept. So go ahead, make the Cure spells Necromancy again, it honestly makes more sense in my opinion.

[DaLucaray]

If you ask me Necro shpuldn’t get buff spells (except for buffing undead)- that’s the realm of Transmutation and Enchantment, and Necromancy already has enough in its toolbelt, especially with your other proposed additions. Maybe buff spells with a downside, both because straight buff gives necromancy too much, and to capture the idea that you’re physically moving the flesh instead of whatever more magical thing is happening with Transmutation.

I do like healing spells being Necromancy, however. Conjuration has more than enough stuff, and necro is more flavorful.

(Also if we’re talking about moving stuff around between schools, I think Curses should be in enchantments. The only reason they’re in Necromancy is cuz they both have a very “evil” flavor to them. Of course that has some balance issues itself, but thats really a whole nother post by now.)

[DaLucaray]

Honestly, I really don't see a problem with Necromancy. They have the best debuffs, the second best raw damage after evocation (possibly better, considering Necro is usually untyped or harder to resist), and the second best minionmaking, after conjuration (and they get permanant minions sooner). I consider it the third best school after Conjuration and Transmutation. They're really only missing buffs (which I assume "beneficial biological manipulation" is) and battlefield control, which zombies can kinda do. Keep in mind that Abjuration and Divination just straight up lack offensive capabilities, Enchantment has pretty much nothing but buffs and save-or-suck spells, and Illusion pretty much just has Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration.

Of course my proposed moving of Curse magic would be a pretty big blow...