For me, E6 vs. E8 is a question of 4th level spells and the second iterative attack for 3/4 BAB characters.Upthread people have stated that they'd rather not have the 3/4 BAB classes get a second iterative. I feel the rogue needs every attack he can get for his precision damage dice to have a hope of narrowing the gap between his damage output and the fighters. It won't do him much good if he isn't flanking. The extra time spent watching the cleric wiff a second attack isn't too much of a price to pay for that. It also lets fighters pick up a level of something that's not full-bab and still interate.
Right. I'm not sure which I prefer, truly. A few 3/4 BAB classes are among my favorites, so clearly I want them to have nice things. In E6, a 3/4 BAB class has one attack, the same as a 1/2 BAB class, and 2nd level spells (if a caster). In E8, a 3/4 BAB class has two attacks and 3rd level spells (if a caster). It also gets the half-casters access to 2nd level spells.
So I like all that. At the same time, I can see the value in restricting the second iterative attack to the full BAB classes. Not for speed (I see game slowdowns due to huge numbers of dice, complex rules interactions, and analysis paralysis... all of which E6 & E8 already help to prevent), but to ensure they have something nobody else does. A quick look through BAB +8 feats indicates... not much that's very good. Whereas there are many more BAB +6 feats, and many of them look much more appealing.
This is really pushing me towards E6 as opposed to E8; it's just seeming that in E8, there's not a lot left for full-BAB classes that is not accessible also to 3/4 BAB classes among the regular feats. But then, an iterative attack plus a lot of feats nobody else can access? Maybe that's a bit much. Maybe we just adjust the prerequisites of some of the BAB +6 feats to BAB +8. Boom, there's something for the dedicated full BAB character to have that nobody else has, and 3/4 BAB classes have a meaningful physical combat advantage over 1/2 BAB casters. I'm thinking out loud here, still not on a final opinion.
As far as magic item crafting, I think my main step would be to just edit the list of items that exist.
In E6, I generally wouldn't allow you to create an item that relies on a 4th level spell, because that spell doesn't even exist. I would not allow you to bypass a requirement that is actually impossible. Likewise I wouldn't allow you to create an item that has a higher CL than the cap. If I had a +1 caster level epic feat, that means I would allow CL 7 items, but never a CL 8. No matter how high you pushed the DC.
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You're right it is my fault. I forgot to realize that when someone says that they're asking for opinions and perspectives on a style of play, they only want agreement with a position they've already taken.
On a suggestion section of the forums I would say, "yes, it is your fault".
E* style of play is not officially supported in any capacity, nor is it something that most people may want to play as a variant. You came to a thread discussing suggestions on how to facilitate E* games again in the house rules section on the forums for what reason again? Oh yeah, to state your opinion oh how you dislike them. Very productive.
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As far as magic item crafting, I think my main step would be to just edit the list of items that exist.
In E6, I generally wouldn't allow you to create an item that relies on a 4th level spell, because that spell doesn't even exist. I would not allow you to bypass a requirement that is actually impossible. Likewise I wouldn't allow you to create an item that has a higher CL than the cap. If I had a +1 caster level epic feat, that means I would allow CL 7 items, but never a CL 8. No matter how high you pushed the DC.
I think editing the magic item list for E6 is probably useful, but I don't think you should be doing it quite so mechanistically as you propose. The CL of many items is rather arbitrary; you could make some of them at lower CL than the printed version. A good example is the FAQ about the Pearl of Power, which in the CRB is listed as a CL 17 item both for the version that recalls level 9 spells (reasonable), but also for the version that recalls level 1 spells (does that really need CL 17?!)
Also, the mapping of which spells (of which level) are used for items doesn't correlate all that nicely with the relative power/impact of magic items. A bag of holding happens to use a level 5 spell for example, but belts/headbands +6 run off level 2 spells.
And I think there's something cool about using magic items precisely to get around the maximum available spell level: a flying carpet for example.
So rather than trying to place such a blanket rule, maybe it's better to just make a whitelist of allowed / blacklist of disallowed magic items? And if the remaining legal items are a much smaller set, maybe some of the item feats should be merged (rings + wondrous for example)?
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Does anyone have a good system for ritual magic, or is it always treated as a kind of situation-specific, GM-tailored thing?
Bardic masterpieces might be a good place to start... although instead of trading out feats or whatever to use them, you instead need:
a) Ritual Casting feat or something similar;
b) X number of other people to help in the ritual; and
c) Certain rare items and so forth ("the tooth of a thunderous dragon; the frozen feather of a phoenix")
Plus, of course, some way to learn the ritual...
The only ritual magic system I know is Incantations. Is serviceable enough, I guess.
As far as magic item crafting, I think my main step would be to just edit the list of items that exist.
In E6, I generally wouldn't allow you to create an item that relies on a 4th level spell, because that spell doesn't even exist. I would not allow you to bypass a requirement that is actually impossible. Likewise I wouldn't allow you to create an item that has a higher CL than the cap. If I had a +1 caster level epic feat, that means I would allow CL 7 items, but never a CL 8. No matter how high you pushed the DC.
I tend to actually use only pseudo E6, in that campaigns have relatively slow level advancement and the most powerful NPCs in the world are about 8th level. In practice you get very similar effects, with what spells are available as scrolls, and what magic items exist, and how countries can enhance their defense and economy with magic. Fluff-wise, it's basically the same, there simply are a couple of 7th and 8th level NPCs instead of some with additional feats. (Seems a bit easier to keep track of to me.)
What I did with magic items is to cut all that appear on the random treasure lists only as major items. Minor items are the "common" ones, while medium items are the rare ones.
Does anyone have a good system for ritual magic, or is it always treated as a kind of situation-specific, GM-tailored thing?
Bardic masterpieces might be a good place to start... although instead of trading out feats or whatever to use them, you instead need:
a) Ritual Casting feat or something similar;
b) X number of other people to help in the ritual; and
c) Certain rare items and so forth ("the tooth of a thunderous dragon; the frozen feather of a phoenix")Plus, of course, some way to learn the ritual...
If you need inspiration, I like how 13th Age handles it, this is only for out of combat (takes ~1d4 minutes to cast if memory serves).
Step 1) Player picks one of their currently memorized spells (or something that can still be cast for a Sorcerer type).
Step 2) Player describes their goal and how the spell picked relates to that goal
Step 3) Player and GM negotiate on results if needed, mutual agreement should happen, the GM also picks a DC (usually normal)
Step 4) Player rolls (caster level + casting attribute), success the spell is used and effect happens, fail, spell is used.
The guideline in 13th Age for DCs would be (normal/hard):
1-4 level: 15/20
5-7 level: 20/25
8-10 level: 25/30
The effect usually only lasts for a scene, or many minutes/level or 10 minutes/level.
They give Clerics, Sorcerer, Wizard ritual casting for free, requiring other classes to take a feat to gain access to it. Though for E8, I could easily see requiring 1 feat for those classes and 2 feats for everyone else.
Last session I had a spell that did cold damage (normally just a combat spell) and there was a house on fire. I used the spell to stop the fire from spreading while my companions rescued the people inside.
How did I miss this thread? Im running an E6 game in my groups persistant Post-modern world (Loosly based off S.M. Sterlings Dies the Fire series, but in a differant region and with more magic, Magic is kinda Dresden files ish).
I made a series of 3 E6 feats for each of the players classes, that they can choose to take to gain up too 9th level class abilities (these do not include spell slots or CL, its for things like bloodlines, magus abilities ect.).
One E feat increases BAB by +2 for determining feats, and effects based off bab, this allows 3/4 attack classes to qualify for +6 bab feats, and allows full bab classes to gain -3, +6 power attacks.
I also have an E feat thst grants full casters a 4th level spell slot, and partial casters a 3rd lvl slot. (its a Words of power game, so they can combine effect words or use boosts with this slot). They dont gain a 4th level word with this feat.
The "High level" casters in the game end up feeling powrrful and epic, and the martials are bamf's... Yet combst doesnt take 3 hrs... Win win
Does anyone have a good system for ritual magic, or is it always treated as a kind of situation-specific, GM-tailored thing?
Bardic masterpieces might be a good place to start... although instead of trading out feats or whatever to use them, you instead need:
a) Ritual Casting feat or something similar;
b) X number of other people to help in the ritual; and
c) Certain rare items and so forth ("the tooth of a thunderous dragon; the frozen feather of a phoenix")Plus, of course, some way to learn the ritual...
My rough ritual casting system is built around the premise of "caster-level-hours". It's like "man-hours", but for magical work.
Whoever is leading the ritual needs the Ritual Caster feat; this represents the training to interpret and adapt a ritual to your specific situation. Basically, he decides what he wants. Let's say that's an earthquake of a given size. A rough formula I haven't written tells you have many caster-level-hours you need to produce that; let's say that this is 100 for the effect he wants. He finds the spellcasters who will help, and adds up their caster levels; let's say he's got himself at CL 6, one guy at CL 2, and two CL 1 participants (aside from the leader, they need no special training). That's 10 caster levels, so he can accomplish the effect in 10 hours.
He makes a non-trivial Spellcraft check to set up the ritual. During the ritual, each participant makes a DC 15 Spellcraft check, which they can take 10 on, barring distractions & interruption, as usual. Basically, this means that you will rarely need to actually roll.
If you want a bigger effect, add more time or more caster levels.
That's broadly speaking, though, and it's aimed more at accomplishing effects bigger than normal allowed spells can. For example, in my setting, before the Empire fell, it used control weather rituals to ensure good and pleasant weather throughout the Empire.
EDIT: This is pretty much the whole system; I haven't written up specific rituals, just the concept underlying them. I would likely extend the system to support not just effects beyond the scope of 3rd-4th level spells, but also non-combat effects that are of lower-level scope but not included in spell lists. I might even pull some spells out of the regular list.
Quite frankly, I'm not a big fan of the E system, if you want to cap your players, simply end the campaign at the level you want and start a new one.I'd rather slow down when we're at the sweet spot, instead of ending campaigns because we've rushed past it.
We do that. We give fast advancement until level 5, then normal to level 10, then slow after that. You can even made it double-super-slow.
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That's nice, DrDeth. I recommend you take that idea into a different thread, since this thread is about E6-E8 games.
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Cool ideas for rituals, everyone! I really like the idea of "caster-level hours", it's an incredibly simple way to scale up the system and make some truly epic spells.
For using even higher level effects (for example, something like a mass Epidemic or Trap the Soul on a God or a permanent Form of the Dragon transformation or other epic plot line type things) you could consider using similar formulae to the magic item crafting rules... spell level * whatever baselines, or something like that.
That's nice, DrDeth. I recommend you take that idea into a different thread, since this thread is about E6-E8 games.
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Cool ideas for rituals, everyone! I really like the idea of "caster-level hours", it's an incredibly simple way to scale up the system and make some truly epic spells.
For using even higher level effects (for example, something like a mass Epidemic or Trap the Soul on a God or a permanent Form of the Dragon transformation or other epic plot line type things) you could consider using similar formulae to the magic item crafting rules... spell level * whatever baselines, or something like that.
Exactly...it is a DISCUSSION about E6/E8....
People are way too uptight about others offering alternatives.
Settle down!
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If your contribution to a discussion about E6/etc is to say that you're having badwrongfun and to instead play something that is not E6/etc, you're not contributing. You're just being a jerk.
Personally? I really like the idea of progressing to slower experience tracks as you get up in levels... but that's a completely different topic.
If your contribution to a discussion about E6/etc is to say that you're having badwrongfun and to instead play something that is not E6/etc, you're not contributing. You're just being a jerk.
Personally? I really like the idea of progressing to slower experience tracks as you get up in levels... but that's a completely different topic.
I have seen many a "badwrongfun" comment, and the jerks who made them. I'm telling you this isn't one of them. The knee-jerk reaction to any comment that mentions any way of playing that isn't listed in the OP as "you're doing it wrong" is pretty silly...oh sorry...pretty silly IMO.
Alice, it was friendly discussion of a closely related idea. You're acting like he said E6 is bad, when he just commented that he does something similar to what was mentioned by another poster. He didn't comment on E6.
You, meanwhile are a sarcastic reactionary, bringing in the very negativity you seem to think you're criticising. Don't.
Anyway, I'm currently working on an idea for E7 which speeds up the spontaneous full caster progressions (wouldn't hurt to do that in the normal game IMO) and grants 8th/9th level class abilities instead of 4th level spells.
Wizards get school powers, clerics get domain powers, druids get 8th level wildshape 1/day etc.
I can see the argument against such a change-heavy approach, but would people be interested in it?
Anyway, I'm currently working on an idea for E7 which speeds up the spontaneous full caster progressions (wouldn't hurt to do that in the normal game IMO) and grants 8th/9th level class abilities instead of 4th level spells.
Wizards get school powers, clerics get domain powers, druids get 8th level wildshape 1/day etc.
I can see the argument against such a change-heavy approach, but would people be interested in it?
This doesn't seem much different from regular (3.5E) E6, where druids get an epic feat that unlocks 8th level wild shape (for instance).
I agree that sorcerers kind of get a raw deal, although I'd probably increase their number of spells known first and foremost.
It's not meant to be much different, it's just meant to be a compromise between 6 and 8, stop everybody on a good level, and avoid the 4th level spells. I dunno if it'll end up better than the various other methods, but I think it's worth a try.
I'm accelerating sorcerers by a level at the cost of a about a spell per day per spell level. It's designed mostly to get them to cut off at the same stage in their development as a wizard, not primarily to make them more powerful.
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Why 7? What's the advantage of 7 vs. 6 or 8?
I'm vehemently against sorcerers/oracles ending up stuck one spell level lower than wizards/clerics.
In some other threads I've seen the idea brandished of advancing sorcerer spellcasting by one level - getting level 2 spells at sorc3, level 3 at sorc5 and so forth, just like wizards. The idea was that in practics specialist wizards aren't all that far behind sorcerers in spells/day, so delaying sorcerer spell levels by a level isn't actually necessary.
Maybe that's a good way to fit in sorcerers at E7? Actually, that would work pretty nicely;
* bards and such get level 3 spells
* full martials still have iteratives as a monopoly
* sorcerers and wizards get to level 4
* oracles hit the level 7 revelation
It's pretty powerful - a definite notch above 6, with the introduction of spells like Dimension Door and Freedom of Movement. That's a matter of taste. But it's still one notch below the "out of hand" level 5 spells like Teleport and Magic Jar. I'm thinking oracles are actually the ones that profit most from this.
Ascalaphus, that's exactly what I'm trying to do, except I want to replace 4th level spells with class features like improved wildshape, 8th level school and domain powers and 9th level bloodline powers.
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So wizards/clerics won't get level 4 spells either?
At that point oracles will probably "win"; they don't need Epic Feats to get to the level 7 Revelation effects and they don't lag behind in spells either.
I think there's a No Free Lunch Effect going on here; there's no cutoff point where everyone's relatively equal, not without some "engineering".
6 is probably the most equal cut off. Lots of classes miss out on good class abilities but that's the price you pay.
And they don't even necessarily "miss out", if you turn those level 7/8 abilities into epic feats.
Yeah I'm only talking about full casters.
Ascalaphus, engineering is what I'm talking about. Spontaneous full casters trade out a spell per day of each level for a faster progression, but nobody whatsoever gets 4th level spells. Instead they get class features from later in their progression, kinda like E6 epic feats would normally allow.
The original itend of E6 was to make it a very quick and easy change that requires almost no additional adaptions. Which is where the real charm lies, at it makes the whole system very accesible to anyone who already knows 3rd Ed./Pathfinder.
While nothing is stopping anyone from completely rebuilding the game with ideas from E6, it does have its reasons for the clean cutoff at 6th level.
Like Yora points out at that point you're not running the smooth, easy game, that E6 could be.6 is probably the most equal cut off. Lots of classes miss out on good class abilities but that's the price you pay.And they don't even necessarily "miss out", if you turn those level 7/8 abilities into epic feats.
Maybe we're getting our terminology mixed up. When I talk about "E6", I'm talking about the guidelines from ENWorld that use that name, and "capstone feats" that give you level 7/8 abilities are totally a thing there. It's not a new idea that I'm suggesting should be added because it already exists.
That's true, but I think it's interesting to note that this version is already the first expanded revision, as even Ryan noticed that "pure" E6 has huge room for expansion potential with custom feats.
Which of course isn't a bad thing, but the more you add the more it becomes a rather different beast that has other adcantages and disadvantages. But easy adaptation and simplicity does not have to be a goal for any individual group, it's just very convenient to make an alternative rules mechanic popular with a large mass. Which I think it is safe to say it did.