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Hi,
We had our first session of PF2 where we spent basically 4 hours just to fill out the characters. I did an additional 2-3 hours of reading to rules beforehand. So I can say we spent around 6-7 hours just to get familiar with system and create the characters and I still doesn't feel confident. We have been playing DnD 3.0 and PF (and a lot of other stuff before that) for 25+ years now so we are not newbees.
The barbarian was relatively easy, but for the sorcerer we really had to do a lot of reading as basically all the spells changed.
Everyone loved the simplified system so far. Our biggest concern is that the book is not well organized. We used pdfs, because of the ability to search but it still doesn't help much in some cases. For example when I tried to find how AC is calculated. It took me 20 minutes to find it as it was only mentioned at a single place at character creation in the middle of a wall of text.
Please put basic rules like this (HP calculation etc..) in sidebar or some highlighted background text in big bold letters.
Even after reading the entry I didn't realize that you add your level to your AC. Profiency modifier is easy to confuse with the TEML modifier (-2, 0, +1, +2, +3). I tried to find examples in the bestiary that would help me decided. Boy it didn't help. I used playable races so that no extra rules apply.
Example 1:
Orc
AC: 13 Poor Breastplate (+2) + Dex (+1) + level 0
Orc Warrior
AC: 15 Breastplate (+4) + Dex(+1) + Level 1
That doesn't add up. So you don't add your level to your AC?
Orc Warchief
AC: 16 Hidearmor (+3) + Dex(+1) + Level 2
That adds up. So what is the exact rule now?
Gnoll Warrior
AC: 16 Leather armor (+1) + Dex (+1) + Level 2
Again doesn't add up, but gnolls might have some inherent bonus to armor class.
Hobgoblin Soldier
AC: 15(17 with shield) No armor listed + Dex (2) + Level 1 + Shield (+2)
Doesn't add up! Has higher AC than it should have!
Hobgoblin Sniper:
AC: 19 Scale mail (+3) + Dex (+4) + Level 4
Doesn't add up, has lower AC then it should have.
Instead of clearing things up it really confused me! Based on the few character examples I found online I assume you should add your level to your AC.
I have also found mentions to an unarmored proficiency, but I couldn't find it on the character sheet and it only has mentions at the monk class. Is everyone trained in unarmored proficiency? Can you raise it's level?
It would really help if there were a couple of examples of how you create a character online step by step. Same is true for combat. I don't feel confident in combat, although we didn't get that far yet.
Another thing we ran into is character sizes and weapon sizes. We didn't find anything relating to smaller weapon sizes and changed damage. We spent 30 minutes trying to figure out the damage of a Large sized greataxe for the barbarian. We couldn't find it so he finally changed the Totem instead. I have a feeling that it's intentional that now all small and medium sized weapons are the same but I only have that feeling because of a half sentence that is mentioned when calculating bulk of weapons with different size.
"Creatures of sizes other than Small or Medium need items
appropriate to their size."
That hints that small and medium is not differentiated, but it doesn't confirm it. It also doesn't help me with the Large sized greataxe problem. From the looks of it even giants have the same damage with the greataxe (fire giant) as halfling. I am not sure whether they use the greataxe in one had or two though...
After spending all this time trying to get familiar with the rules I still have a couple of concepts that are unknown:
I found references to a concept named spell roll. But I couldn't find what it's good for.
I have also found that there is a concept of resonance points which is related to activating magic items, but couldn't find a rule for it. Do you have to to spend resonance points when drinking a potion? What about continuous use magical items?
Also spells changed a lot. Some of the cantrips are really powerful now, like Telekinetic Projectile or ray of frost. But some of the 1st level spell are now basically useless like: Command (target only looses 1 action instead of a round), Mage armor (+1 AC). Negate Aroma: seriously this is level 1 spell? While Ray of Frost is a cantrip?
One last thing about magic. Sorcerer. I saw that you have unified the spells per day tables. Now sorcerers can cast much less spells. Also the number of spells they know from a level is lower. They will only know 3 spells from a single level ever. Combine that with the fact that they can cast 3 spell from a level only and I don't really see the great flexibility here that will make up for the lack of spell they know. In PF v1. Sorcerers were could last several encounters and still have some spells left. Now they are not better than wizards. They are much worse. My player didn't like that.
So we are past character creation, and we will start playing in the next session. I come back to report after that as well.
I tried to find examples in the bestiary that would help me decided. Boy it didn't help. I used playable races so that no extra rules apply.
Don't go by monsters to determine player rules. Monsters do not follow the same rules.
And yes, you do add your level to your AC. AC is a proficiency, like pretty much everything else in the game. A trained proficiency is not +0, it's Level+0. the level is always in there.
I have also found mentions to an unarmored proficiency, but I couldn't find it on the character sheet and it only has mentions at the monk class. Is everyone trained in unarmored proficiency? Can you raise it's level?
An update document was released on monday. Among other things, it says everyoneis proficient in being unarmored. There's no way to increase that unless you have a specific ability that says otherwise (like the monk's level 1 ability Graceful Expertise.
It would really help if there were a couple of examples of how you create a character online step by step. Same is true for combat. I don't feel confident in combat, although we didn't get that far yet.
There are a few character creation videos on youtube, but I wouldn't reecommend them at this point. Still too vague and sometimes just wrong. Dont rely on them until some more time has passed.
Another thing we ran into is character sizes and weapon sizes. We didn't find anything relating to smaller weapon sizes and changed damage. We spent 30 minutes trying to figure out the damage of a Large sized greataxe for the barbarian.
As far as I can tell, the greataxe's damage doesn't change. Instead, you double your rage damage bonus.
I have a feeling that it's intentional that now all small and medium sized weapons are the same
This is correct.
I found references to a concept named spell roll. But I couldn't find what it's good for.
See "Counteracting Conditions" on page 319. It's basically the new version of a caster level check. Used to determine whether you succeed in stuff like Dispel Magic or Remove Poison.
I have also found that there is a concept of resonance points which is related to activating magic items, but couldn't find a rule for it. Do you have to to spend resonance points when drinking a potion? What about continuous use magical items?
Using any kind magic item (wand, staff, potion scroll, everything) costs one point of resonance. Continious magic items require you to spend one point each day to use their effects. Weapons are the exception and don't require ist investiture (as the game calls it) to use their passive effect. A weapon might still have an extra ability that requires resonance to use, though. Check the magic item chapter for details.
One last thing about magic. Sorcerer. I saw that you have unified the spells per day tables. Now sorcerers can cast much less spells. Also the number of spells they know from a level is lower. They will only know 3 spells from a single level ever. Combine that with the fact that they can cast 3 spell from a level only and I don't really see the great flexibility here that will make up for the lack of spell they know. In PF v1. Sorcerers were could last several encounters and still have some spells left. Now they are not better than wizards. They are much worse. My player didn't like that.
Sorcerers get one additional spell slot for each level from their bloodlie class feature. So they have as many daily spells as a specialist Wizard of the same level (not counting the wizard's arcane focus).
Hope that clears some things up.
For simplicity, you always add level to TEML.
Unarmoured proficiency was noted in the errata - everyone is trained in it.
Spell rolls are usually used for things like Black Tentacles.
I find it's easier to parse Resonance if you note that every time you see (Operate, Focus, Command) Activation, it costs 1 RP. Invested is 1 RP.
Sorcerers know 4 spells per level (3 + bloodline) and can cast 4 per level at max (3 + bloodline).
Don't go by monsters to determine player rules. Monsters do not follow the same rules.And yes, you do add your level to your AC. AC is a proficiency, like pretty much everything else in the game. A trained proficiency is not +0, it's Level+0. the level is always in there.
Thanks for the clarification. But I disagree that bestiary entries like orc (which could be payable class) shouldn't follow basic rules. Orcs, Hobgoblins, Drow or similar humanoid monsters either should have an explicit feat that makes them exempt from the rules or should follow the rules. I have no problem with ooze or golem having different stats but for basically playable races this shouldn't be the case.
As for the sorcerer. I am still not convinced. They look like a wizard who only memorizes once per level. Ok I am exaggerating here, but still, a 10 level sorcerer can only cast 4 first level spells. One for each one he knows is very close to basically preparation.
Thanks everyone for the clarification on the Resonance and spell rolls. You are very helpful.
The only thing I would like to point out that key information is hard to find in the book. Despite the fact that you can do a computer search.
The only thing I would like to point out that key information is hard to find in the book. Despite the fact that you can do a computer search.
Investing more than 3 hours into a 430 pages book to get an overview is probably a good idea ;)
It's not like I don't agree with you, because really, I do.
But a few things can be easier to find if you actually use the book instead of a PDF search. Using the pdf search just doesn't work for some things like attack or resonance because they are mentioned WAY too often in the book. There's a pretty workable index in the end and the chracter creation chapter lists pages for most things you'll probably need. Like the short introduction to resonance on page 17 tells you to go to page 376 for more on resonance.
For many things, I've actually stopped using the pdf, taking out my print edition instead.
So yeah, the book could totally be cleaner, but it gets better the more time you spend browsing it :)