Magic under the 3e system is pretty stagnent since it relies so heavily on the STAT modifier as opposed to the caster level. This really only leaves the option of having the spellcaster use damage-dealing spells. What if a spell caster wants to be more subtle then this, defeating opponents through spells such as Charm or Hold Person or Ray of Enfeeblement as opposed to defeating them with Magic Missile or Fireball?
Under 3e spells DCs are: 10 + Spell level + Appropriate modifier + Misc Modifiers.
In my game spell DCs are: 10 + half caster level (round down on odd numbered levels) + spell level + appropriate modifier + misc modifiers.
Notice that under the second system even low-level spells will gain in strength more regularly & spellcasters will have more tactical options open to them other then just "blowing the opponent to smitherines". Also they'll keep in pace with the opponent as far as having to overcome their saving throws. Under the first system a mid level "victim" has no real fear of a Spellcasters Charm spell, under the second the Charm spell has a far better chance of affecting the same victim.
I encourage people to try my second system & let me know their experiences with it, positive & negative.
I changed the formula to Spellcaster DC = 10 + Highest Level Spell You Can Cast + Ability Mod + Misc Mods. Made for one simple number, I found casters in my group started taking a smidgen less time on their turn because they didnt need to look up their DC, especially when they knew what a spell did but werent sure what level it was. Like say the bard with Hold Person.
It does make casters stronger (as does the OPs system, I think). And anything that makes casters stronger needs to be carefully weighed. I found it advanced enjoyment and reduced "rule-lag" at the table, so it worked for me. Ymmv.
While I am drawn to such systems, my problems with them are many.
First - monsters are balanced by the original Save system. A monster spellcaster is now a tyrant on the field compared to its CR.
Second - spells are balanced at their original Save DCs. In order to boost them, Heighten Spell must be taken. Heighten Spell will no longer exist, which may be acceptable to you, but also cantrips will have Save DCs in the 20's starting at mid levels. This means the PCs will have to spend considerably less resources to get the same effects.
Personally, I think Heighten Spell is a more elegant solution to the problem in that it keeps the balance of the game intact.
With Heighten Spell, aren't you giving up a slot? Even with Sorcerers a lost slot is still a lost slot. Admittedly though I've only used my system on low-level campaigns. I've used it twice in higher-level play but both of those were one-shots. One was for D&D day which was an SL adventure I did where the characters were around 8th level, another was an AE adventure where the characters were 10th. I can only get so much info via one-shots.
That's why I'd like people to try it out on a more consistant basis & gimme their thoughts on how I could balance it out further.
I have, and it's rather a nightmare.
Firstly, it's useless for a lot of the spells you'd expect it to be otherwise, like sleep or daze.
Secondly, it makes a lot of spells wacky powerful at no cost, like fireball.
Thirdly, it throws the balance far against the PCs. A spellcasting foe is suddenly really powerful when he only needs a low-level slot (like 1 to 3) to throw a spell out there with a save DC on the order of 22. While the PCs can do the same, it becomes vastly easier to whittle down the PCs when the baddies can do it to them over and over again, casting ten spells with high save DCs rather than only a couple.
Yes, heighten spell eats up a high-level slot. Spells that can strike high-level characters at full force should eat up high-level slots.
You should've seen what it was like when I rounded up at the odd-numbered levels. Rounding it down seemed like a step in the right direction. Still quite a few quirks to iron out apparently. The Black Bards system sounds interesting, I'll check that out too 'cause frankly they way that the spell system is now just don't work for me no more it's simply too reliant on modifiers.
In the cbg boards someone suggested removing the spell level part of the equation entirely, effectively making spells DCs thus: 10 + 1/2 caster level + appropriate modifier + misc modifiers. According to that poster it allows scaling more closely to saves.
Last night I nearly TPKed my players with a single lich. They faced Thessalar in my Age of worms game. In very short order, One PC and her cohort were dead, a second cohort was insane, and the party had to deal with a prismatic wall blocking the line of sight of the spellcasters. Under the system suggested by the OP, the saves would have been even higher.
While I would like some scaling based on the spellcaster, this method seriously hurts the PCs.
I'm gonna try the system that the guy on cbg suggested, as I'm doing a playtest of the Pathfinder stuff at the end of the month anyway. So far it looks promising & just based on the math it does scale more closely to saves while still allowing the lower level spells to increase in power. Of course though spell levels are pretty much removed in this manner; I'm not entirely comfortable having a 1st level Charm be as powerful as a 9th level Wish though.
Another idea that I've been toying with is this: DC = 10 + caster level (or 1/2 caster level)+ Spell level + Misc Modifiers. Under this method caster level & spell level are accounted for, 'though STAT modifiers are removed from the equation entirely & I'm not completely sure I'm comfortable with that either.
Trying to scale it more to the caster & still keep it simple isn't as easy as I initially thought.
Covetous wrote: Magic under the 3e system is pretty stagnent since it relies so heavily on the STAT modifier as opposed to the caster level. This really only leaves the option of having the spellcaster use damage-dealing spells. What if a spell caster wants to be more subtle then this, defeating opponents through spells such as Charm or Hold Person or Ray of Enfeeblement as opposed to defeating them with Magic Missile or Fireball?
That's why there are higher level versions of these spells such as Charm Monster, Domination, Suggestion, Geas, (which works just fine on humanoids and those pesky elves), and Deep Slumber. Not to mention hordes of high level illusionary effects both lethal such has phantasmal killer and subtle such as mirage arcane.
High level challenges should mandate higher level spells.
LazarX wrote: That's why there are higher level versions of these spells such as Charm Monster, Domination, Suggestion, Geas, (which works just fine on humanoids and those pesky elves), and Deep Slumber. Not to mention hordes of high level illusionary effects both lethal such has phantasmal killer and subtle such as mirage arcane.
High level challenges should mandate higher level spells.
I agree with all this to an extent, but the question becomes what do you do with all those lower level spells, when you don't have low level challenges? Continually relegating them to non-save based spells becomes somewhat tedious and predictable.
I toyed with the idea of 10 + 1/3 caster level + ability + misc, instead of 1/2, but that seemed somewhat cruel to casters in the bigger fights.
Majuba wrote: LazarX wrote: That's why there are higher level versions of these spells such as Charm Monster, Domination, Suggestion, Geas, (which works just fine on humanoids and those pesky elves), and Deep Slumber. Not to mention hordes of high level illusionary effects both lethal such has phantasmal killer and subtle such as mirage arcane.
High level challenges should mandate higher level spells.
I agree with all this to an extent, but the question becomes what do you do with all those lower level spells, when you don't have low level challenges? Continually relegating them to non-save based spells becomes somewhat tedious and predictable.
I toyed with the idea of 10 + 1/3 caster level + ability + misc, instead of 1/2, but that seemed somewhat cruel to casters in the bigger fights. If you're a wizard you start prepping spells you've never bothered before such as Feather Fall, Mount, to save the neccessity of an item, detection spells, silenced cantrips, there are tons of low level spells that can be put in through various uses besides combat. On the other hand if you've got a mob of pesants you just want to put a nonlethal stop on, spells like color spray and entangle never lose thier usefulness. If you're a sorcerer you start swapping out or beg your DM for the retraining option.
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