Firing multiple automatic weapons

[Ravingdork]

Can a kasatha operative with four automatic small arms and quad attack make four automatic weapon attacks as part of the same full round action? Why or why not?

The Core Rulebook on automatic weapons says "When you make a full attack with a weapon in automatic mode..." which doesn't sound to me like the same language as "you make an automatic attack as a full round action."

[Neil77]

Ravingdork wrote:

Can a kasatha operative with four automatic small arms and quad attack make four automatic weapon attacks as part of the same full round action? Why or why not?

The Core Rulebook on automatic weapons says "When you make a full attack with a weapon in automatic mode..." which doesn't sound to me like the same language as "you make an automatic attack as a full round action."

My interpretation would be technically yes, but why? It takes no action to switch between modes, and the benefit (i.e. line or cone effect) expressly applies only when making a full attack.

[Ravingdork]

Why would four autofire bursts be better than one? That a serious question?

[Dragonchess Player]

One issue with a kasatha firing four automatic weapons: The Four-Armed ability specifies "While their multiple arms increase the number of items they can have at the ready, it doesn’t increase the number of attacks they can make during combat." At most, they can fire two weapons in the same round (or three with Solarian's Onslaught/Soldier's Onslaught/Triple Attack; four with Quad Attack).

The Fusillade feat can allow a kasatha to fire four identical small arms in a single autofire burst, but it sounds like you want to fire multiple bursts in a single round.

[Pantshandshake]

You know, I really doubt it was the intent to allow multiple weapons to be fired in automatic mode during one full attack sequence, but I'll be damned if I can find anything that actually prohibits it.

So yeah, I think you can fire as many automatic weapons in automatic mode as you have can carry, limited by the amount of attacks your character can make in a full attack.

[Ravingdork]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

One issue with a kasatha firing four automatic weapons: The Four-Armed ability specifies "While their multiple arms increase the number of items they can have at the ready, it doesn’t increase the number of attacks they can make during combat." At most, they can fire two weapons in the same round (or three with Solarian's Onslaught/Soldier's Onslaught/Triple Attack; four with Quad Attack).

The Fusillade feat can allow a kasatha to fire four identical small arms in a single autofire burst, but it sounds like you want to fire multiple bursts in a single round.

This isn't really an issue for someone with quad attack.

A bigger problem would be trying to find a small arm with the automatic property (I don't think any exist currently).

Even so, the question is still worth answering, since there are multiple ways to have someone wielding two or more automatic weapons at once.

[Ridiculon]

Looking at these it seems like the only way to make 2 attacks on a full attack with a weapon in auto mode is to actually have 2 auto mode weapons. The special full auto attack uses all your ammo and i think it only counts as a single one of your 2 full attacks.

Side note: that Fusillade feat seems significantly worse than just having an actual automatic weapon... not really sure why anyone would take it.

[Ravingdork]

Ridiculon wrote:

Side note: that Fusillade feat seems significantly worse than just having an actual automatic weapon... not really sure why anyone would take it.

The high ammo count. You can hit more potential targets with that feat than with any single automatic weapon.

[Ridiculon]

I suppose, but that also makes it about 4x the cost in action economy since you'd have to reload them all again right after to keep shooting. I guess it would combo with Opening Volley... but then you have to take into account the upgrade costs for 5 (or 6, or 7 since its for a multi arm character) weapons... I dunno, just not how i would build a character. To each their own though

[Ravingdork]

Ridiculon wrote:

I suppose, but that also makes it about 4x the cost in action economy since you'd have to reload them all again right after to keep shooting. I guess it would combo with Opening Volley... but then you have to take into account the upgrade costs for 5 (or 6, or 7 since its for a multi arm character) weapons... I dunno, just not how i would build a character. To each their own though

The Starfinder Armory has a new operative exploit that grants all non-automatic small arms the quick reload feature.

That would allow you to reload all four and do it again on the next round.

A skittermander could potentially do this with up to 8 small arms (more with powered armor).

They wouldn't get any more attacks or damage, but such a character could probably obliterate a room full of a 100+ people.

[Neil77]

Ravingdork wrote:

They wouldn't get any more attacks or damage, but such a character could probably obliterate a room full of a 100+ people.

Except that, unless you are making a full attack with it, an automatic weapon still only targets one enemy.

[Ravingdork]

Neil77 wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

They wouldn't get any more attacks or damage, but such a character could probably obliterate a room full of a 100+ people.

Except that, unless you are making a full attack with it, an automatic weapon still only targets one enemy.

This whole thread is about making autofire attacks with automatic weapons! Why are you talking about single target attacks?

Some small arms have as many as 40 shots. It takes 2 shots to damage someone with an automatic attack. That's 20 potential targets. If I have four small arms, I can potentially damage 80 targets simultaneously.

With a six-armed skittermander, I could damage 120 targets. A skittermander with cybernetic arms could have 8 guns and damage up to 160 targets. Add Powered armor with small arm attachments and the sky is the limit.

You could walk into a room and just shoot absolutely everybody, no problem. Someone using a longarm to do the same would quickly run out of ammo and not be able to effect everyone in their cone.

Just how many of those targets you can fit into the cone would be more of a limiter than the ammo at that point. The longest range for small arms seems to be 120 ft. (60 ft. cone) with the most common being 60 ft. (30 ft. cone). If there are game options to extend that range, then this may well be better than traditional automatic weapons (albeit, with a steep investment).

Is it the sanest, most practical build? No, but it's something you can do that others can't. And that's something.

[Magyar5]

Unfortunately you can only fire a single automatic weapon per round regardless of the weapon type. Firing an automatic weapon is a unique usage of the full attack action and consumes the entire full attack action.

See the rules about full attacks and the automatic description. That being said, you could fire one, drop it, and fire another the subsequent round and so on until you have no more weapons.

[Neil77]

Thank you. That's what I was trying to say, but was not stating clearly.

[CoreStar]

OK, so the question I have on this subject is what happens if you use Fusillade feat and there are only 2 targets in the cone and you have energy weapons with 40 charge clips. If I read all this right, you fire 2 weapons in full attack, so there is a change of 2 hits on each target max and the remaining 72 charges on the clips are just gone. Am I reading this right?

Why would this ever be a good idea unless you were trying to take on a platoon of mercs single handed.

[Pantshandshake]

Obviously you wouldn't want to use this feat in that situation. You'd be better off just shooting the two things like normal.

Like most things, you'll want to look at the number of targets, the amount of charges or ammo left in your weapon(s), and make an appropriate judgement.

[Ravingdork]

Magyar5 wrote:

Unfortunately you can only fire a single automatic weapon per round regardless of the weapon type. Firing an automatic weapon is a unique usage of the full attack action and consumes the entire full attack action.

See the rules about full attacks and the automatic description. That being said, you could fire one, drop it, and fire another the subsequent round and so on until you have no more weapons.

I've already refuted this in my opening post. Was there some additional rules text I overlooked, because the automatic description doesn't in itself prohibit multiple attacks. Something buried in the Tactics chapter perhaps?

[Pantshandshake]

I can see where both RD and Magyar are getting their interpretations. The rules text is not clear on whether firing a single weapon in automatic mode is a full attack action, or whether you can fire a weapon in automatic mode while you also happen to be making a full attack.

Personally, I fall on RD’s side of the fence, because it’s cool, and the benefit of being able to hit some enemies twice instead of once, at the cost of all that ammo, seems pretty balanced.

I guess we’ve got yet another FAQ candidate for 2019, folks!

[Ravingdork]

It's also not any more powerful than throwing several grenades. In fact, in many respects, it's less so.

[Magyar5]

You actually didn't refute anything, you just didn't read the entirety of the rules on full actions. Let me quote the most important rule around a full action from of 248.

"A full action requires your entire turn to complete. If you take a
full action, you can’t take your usual standard, move, and swift
actions. The following actions are full actions."

One type of full action is a full attack. The relevant part for an automatic firing weapon is as follows. "Certain weapons have special individualized full attacks. For instance, some weapons have a fully automatic attack mode"

As you can see the individualized use of the full automatic attack consumes the full action.

Hope this helps. Personally I'm not a fan of the penalties around the automatic property as they are extreme. An attack which consumes all of your ammunition and can't crit on top of the -4 penalty for each roll is extremely severe. Btw if you look at the last sentence under the automatic description it lends further evidence that automatic attacks consume your full action.

[Ravingdork]

Thank you, Maygar5.

Automatic:

In addition to making ranged attacks normally, a weapon with this special property can fire in fully automatic mode. No action is required to toggle a weapon between making normal ranged attacks and using automatic mode.

When you make a full attack with a weapon in automatic mode, you can attack in a cone with a range of half the weapon’s range increment. This uses all the weapon’s remaining ammunition. Roll one attack against each target in the cone, starting with those closest to you. Attacks made with a weapon in automatic mode can’t score critical hits. Roll damage only once, and apply it to all targets struck. Each attack against an individual creature in the cone uses up the same amount of ammunition or charges as taking two shots, and once you no longer have enough ammunition to attack another target, you stop making attacks.

For example, if you were using a tactical X-gen gun with 27 rounds remaining, you would target the nearest 6 creatures in the cone and use up all 27 rounds.

If more than one creature is equidistant and you don’t have enough cartridges remaining to shoot at all equidistant creatures, determine randomly which one you target. You can’t avoid shooting at allies in the cone, nor can you shoot any creature more than once, even if you have enough cartridges to fire more shots than you have targets. Attacks in automatic mode take the same penalties as other full attacks.

Nothing in the rules for the automatic property specifically calls it out as a full action or a full attack. This is what lead me to believe that it may not in fact be a full attack.

Full Attack:

You can spend a full action to make two attacks, each with a –4 penalty to the attack rolls. These attacks can be made with the same weapon or different weapons, though certain weapons have a firing speed so slow that you can’t shoot them more than once in a round, even with a full attack. These weapons have the unwieldy special property (see page 182).

Certain weapons have special individualized full attacks. For instance, some weapons have a fully automatic attack mode. Sometimes special full attacks, such as the soldier’s onslaught class feature, require specialized training in order to gain their benefits.

However, as Maygar5 points out, the Full Attack rules entry makes it clear that automatic attacks are indeed full attacks.

All of this taken together makes it clear to me that Maygar5 has been correct all along.

Paizo really needs to stop spreading their rules all over the place. It leads to a lot of confusion and heartache.