You know I tried to have this conversation once...
The funny thing is if you put up a fighter the people that say "fighters have no chance!" will talk about all these specific things that can be done to gimp the fighter.
However if you point out specific things that can be done to gimp the wizard that's "Specialized tactics" (even when these are the normal tactics for that type of creature) and therefore don't count somehow.
At which point the conversation ended since I was dealing with people that are "right" by definition -- the fact they get to define "right".
Yeah, I always love the observation "Any wizard worth his salt should be able to avoid getting into melee."
The counter of which is "Any character worth his salt should be able to get into melee with a caster."
===Aelryinth
Balance is a tricky beast. On one hand, you don't want everyone to be equal because they tends to require sameness. On the other, it isn't a lot of fun to be chucking spears at tanks.
I think the best we can hope for is that all the roles are needed, and that one class can't simply outshine the other at what that class was suppose to do better.
Yeah, I always love the observation "Any wizard worth his salt should be able to avoid getting into melee."
The counter of which is "Any character worth his salt should be able to get into melee with a caster."
===Aelryinth
I don't think that is a good counter.
'A good jumper should be able to jump off his three story roof to the ground. Oh yeah? Well, a good jumper should be able to jump off the ground onto his three story roof!'
The problem with inversion is that it isn't always true!
The wizard enters the fight with an overland flight, a contingency, and whatever spell he wants to set that battlefield. The fighter can gulp his potion of fly on his turn and get targetted several times before he even gets a chance to swing that sword. This is not a fair fight.
Add back in the 10 or 15 mins (can't remember exactly wich) per spell level for re-learning spells and it make s huge difference. Also, as I've said numerous times, put back in "if you are hit, you auto-lose the spell". This alone would help the melee classes feel less threatened by the casters.
Your average 18th level Mage ends up taking about a week or so to re-learn every spell they could cast!
S.
I don't think this is actually a good thing to do.
If I have to spend about a week to re-learn (prepare) my spells I wouldn't play as a wizard (or any caster for that matter) because I would be half of the time throwing magic missiles at people and would be a TOTAL BURDEN for the rest of the party.
This isn't funny IMO.
'A good jumper should be able to jump off his three story roof to the ground. Oh yeah? Well, a good jumper should be able to ...!'
...jump off the three story roof and not break his legs ;)
The idea of Parity is a phantom. Everything is a if/then statement series. Also, there are times when X's particular talents are valuable, and other times when Y's talents shine. I like this paradigm. It reinforces and amplifies the PARTY (both in the 'players in the party' and the 'let's have a party!' contexts!) and I hope the overall enjoyment of the game.
How bad off are you if you 1) have to *win* at D&D, or 2) get mad when you don't, or 3) can't celebrate your friend's success?
*shrug*
Winning is easy, it's the good times that make it worthwhile!
GNOME
The counter of which is "Any character worth his salt should be able to get into melee with a caster."
Eh:
1) It's pretty trivial to come up with at least some situations in which you either can't, or probably can't until it's too late. Maybe he's greater invis and casting spells out of project image. Maybe he's in a Cube of Force he crafted. Whatever.
2) There's "in melee" and there's "in melee and reasonably dangerous." A wizard with Stoneskin, Mirror Image, and Displacement up (not that I'm suggesting this is a typical fight load-out) is only so afraid of the damage you can deal before he takes you out.
Also, as I've said numerous times, put back in "if you are hit, you auto-lose the spell". This alone would help the melee classes feel less threatened by the casters.
I don't know if that's anywhere near as dangerous as you think it is. It didn't slow down any of the better-played 2E wizards I've seen much, if at all.
But more seriously. The OP is right. Wizards are great assuming you (a) have spells left and (b) have the right spells.The thing is, as players get better, the probability of A and B being true approaches 100%.
Got to call you on this whopper, DM. After 30+ years of playing and DMing I can't see how that is even remotely possible at anything other than high levels, given the huge variety of potential combat and non-combat encounters out there, unless you are reading the modules ahead of time or your GM is very, very predictable.
Perhaps you would care to take this out of the theoretical and into the "real" world by posting what spells, at say 1st, 5th, and 10th levels, your wizard would have in his spellbooks and memorized on any particular day that would make him close to 100% prepared for whatever comes his way that day. Also note, which spells (like Mage Armor) you would assume to precast before combat and how long they last at that level. If you'd like, you can also list those magic items you would have, using the WBL charts, to supplement your memorized spells. You can also say at which point in the day you would presume to retreat for rest and to recover spells, and how you would ensure you were able to do that.
My bet is that you can probably come close to being prepared for most things at 10th level, but not everything, but it will be very difficult to do at 5th level, and just about completely impossible at 1st level with your 3 spells a day and no magic items.
You'll note that I left out the high levels, and if you want to declare victory for levels 15 and up, I won't argue too much, although even then I think approaching 100% prepared for any contingency is an exaggeration. Those levels are pretty well acknowledged to be pretty wonky, even by the Paizo design team, and I rarely play them.
Perhaps you would care to take this out of the theoretical and into the "real" world by posting what spells, at say 1st, 5th, and 10th levels, your wizard would have in his spellbooks and memorized on any particular day that would make him close to 100% prepared for whatever comes his way that day.
You're looking at this the wrong way, and/or you're misunderstanding me to say something I'm not:
A good wizard player won't have a standard set of spells that he prepares every day that covers everything. That's not exactly what you said, but it's essentially what you're asking for.
You're correct, that can't really be done.
What I'm saying is that given a wizard in an actual campaign, preparing his spells on a specific morning for his adventuring day, with a high-end player, that player will choose spells that make him close to 100% prepared for what he will encounter that specific day. That same set of spells for what happens a week later? Trash, but for exactly what he's going to do that day they're what he needs.
The expertise to pick well is as much an art as a science:
It's knowing mechanically what the spells do and what holes there are in each and how they might be covered.
It's knowing how your specific GM rules spells -- a great example is casting Silent Image or Charm Person in combat, do that with 10 different GMs and you'll probably get at least 9 different rulings of how they resolve.
It's an awareness of what's going on in the campaign in general and on the day you're picking for in specific. In something like a Living game, some of that is reading campaign trends, e.g., all of the mod authors this year seem to have thing for swarms or elder xorn or the half-golem template (and you can call that meta-game thinking if you like, but preparing to tackle a swarm when you've encountered a swarm 3 out of the last 4 weeks of your life I don't think is); in a home game it's more that you just generally know what you're going to be doing next. You pick different spells for going into a dungeon than you do for travelling across some plains. You pick different spells if you're going into an old crypt vs. the lair of the local tribe of kobolds. And that doesn't mean you're caught completely with your pants down when the kobold chief turns out to be a sorcerer lich, but you do still pick spells differently for those two situations. Divination, of course, when applicable allows an even greater level of precision in this area.
It's an awareness of what's going on with your party. You pick different spells for a party that's half arcane casters than you do for a party where it's just you and a pile of fighters. You pick different spells in a party where a flame oracle has the fire damage thing extra covered vs. a party that's half UMD-happy rogues. And so on.
You pick different spells if you expect a small number of tough encounters before resting than if you expect a large number of weaker ones. Often you have a good reason to expect one of these over the other.
Your magic items factor in too, of course -- there too you can't have everything, so you've chosen to cover some bases and not others. Your spell choice will have an eye to shoring up the ones your items don't.
All these things and more combine to inform your choices. It's too complex a problem to accurately boil down to a forum exercise. If that seems like a cop-out, I'm sorry, but there it is: the best players I've seen could hand you their prepared spell list so you were sure they weren't cheating, and yet, in play you would feel like they were casting spontaneously from the whole sorcerer/wizard list.
No matter how good you are, probably you will pick some spells that aren't useful that day, but your measure of success isn't how many spells you picked but didn't need, but: did you have each spell you really needed when you needed it?
Perhaps you would care to take this out of the theoretical and into the "real" world by posting what spells, at say 1st, 5th, and 10th levels, your wizard would have in his spellbooks and memorized on any particular day that would make him close to 100% prepared for whatever comes his way that day.You're looking at this the wrong way, and/or you're misunderstanding me to say something I'm not:
A good wizard player won't have a standard set of spells that he prepares every day that covers everything. That's not exactly what you said, but it's essentially what you're asking for.
You're correct, that can't really be done.
What I'm saying is that given a wizard in an actual campaign, preparing his spells on a specific morning for his adventuring day, with a high-end player, that player will choose spells that make him close to 100% prepared for what he will encounter that specific day. That same set of spells for what happens a week later? Trash, but for exactly what he's going to do that day they're what he needs.
The expertise to pick well is as much an art as a science:
It's knowing mechanically what the spells do and what holes there are in each and how they might be covered.
It's knowing how your specific GM rules spells -- a great example is casting Silent Image or Charm Person in combat, do that with 10 different GMs and you'll probably get at least 9 different rulings of how they resolve.
It's an awareness of what's going on in the campaign in general and on the day you're picking for in specific. In something like a Living game, some of that is reading campaign trends, e.g., all of the mod authors this year seem to have thing for swarms or elder xorn or the half-golem template (and you can call that meta-game thinking if you like, but preparing to tackle a swarm when you've encountered a swarm 3 out of the last 4 weeks of your life I don't think is); in a home game it's more that you just generally know what you're going to be doing next. You...
You make some good points about effective play of a wizard that I fully agree with. However, none of that gets you anywhere near 100% prepared for all contingencies, in my opinion, particularly at lower levels. Maybe I've never really played with a really good wizard player. I kind of doubt that, given how long I've been playing this game in all its editions and how many highly skilled players I've played with, but it is theoretically possible.
The main variable that no amount of skill can prepare for is what surprises the adventure path or module or DM has in store. A diviner specialist would have a leg up on this challenge, of course, but at the opportunity cost of having to use spells to gain knowledge about what is going to happen that could be used to deal with what does happen. The ability to leave spell slots open and memorize them later in the day also helps a lot, with the liberalization of memorization requirements, but it's also situational. You don't always have time to take even a couple of minutes to pull out your spellbook and read.
So I'll stand by my point until proven otherwise. The necessity to memorize skills and the probability that sometimes that spell list will be less than optimal to deal wtih the challenges at hand is one of the things that makes wizards challenging to play well. In my experience, the ones who do it best are the ones who can not only guess what is needed the best, but are able to adapt on the fly and make use of the non-optimal spells they have to deal with problems in sometimes unorthodox or creative ways.
So I'll stand by my point until proven otherwise. The necessity to memorize skills and the probability that sometimes that spell list will be less than optimal to deal wtih the challenges at hand is one of the things that makes wizards challenging to play well. In my experience, the ones who do it best are the ones who can not only guess what is needed the best, but are able to adapt on the fly and make use of the non-optimal spells they have to deal with problems in sometimes unorthodox or creative ways.
If this is your point, then I don't disagree -- actually it's one of the things that makes playing a wizard fun instead of the equivalent of taking a magnifying glass to ants: depending on how well or badly you pick your spells, you can be the biggest contributor in the party or the smallest.
The best I've seen didn't hit 100% perfect preparedness for anything, no -- but came close enough that it would make more sense, as a GM, to assume they would have the right spell for everything. You might run one of these guys through a whole Adventure Path or equivalent length campaign and only see them come up empty for a spell they could have learned and/or prepared and didn't once or twice.
So I'll stand by my point until proven otherwise. The necessity to memorize skills and the probability that sometimes that spell list will be less than optimal to deal wtih the challenges at hand is one of the things that makes wizards challenging to play well. In my experience, the ones who do it best are the ones who can not only guess what is needed the best, but are able to adapt on the fly and make use of the non-optimal spells they have to deal with problems in sometimes unorthodox or creative ways.
If this is your point, then I don't disagree -- actually it's one of the things that makes playing a wizard fun instead of the equivalent of taking a magnifying glass to ants: depending on how well or badly you pick your spells, you can be the biggest contributor in the party or the smallest.
The best I've seen didn't hit 100% perfect preparedness for anything, no -- but came close enough that it would make more sense, as a GM, to assume they would have the right spell for everything. You might run one of these guys through a whole Adventure Path or equivalent length campaign and only see them come up empty for a spell they could have learned and/or prepared and didn't once or twice.
Maybe someday, I'll play with somebody like that and change my opinion. Until then, color me skeptical.
Regardless, I think we've narrowed down our differences and can agree to disagree on the rest.
I wish you good luck and good gaming!
Spells are just as narrow -- fireball only does what fireball does. Toughness only does what toughness does, invisibility only does what invisibility does while point blank shot works with all ranged weapons (and attacks) as does precise shot.
Having a lot of spells isn't the same as having a lot of effective spells or applicable spells. Indeed I very much doubt you can show me a situation where none of the feats a fighter has will be applicable -- but of course you are welcome to try.
Spells don't auto-succeed either, and each failure (or success for that matter) just makes you that much weaker for the rest of the day.
Also even past level 11 a wizard is not immune to grappling, he's not immune to fortitude saves (or the things that cause fortitude saves) and funnily enough he's not immune to dragon's breath (though he might survive the first blast), his defenses against actual physical attack have deteriorated significantly. Most of the illusion based defenses have been nullified by various senses, the wizard's choices for increasing AC has plateau, and he has few other defenses available at this point.
Of course pointing any of this out is "using special tactics that aren't normal" (as I mentioned earlier) or are ignored.
Making wizardly examples based on him casting ahead of time are as invalid as making examples where the Fighter bursts out of suprise due to superior positioning/tactics and is up on the caster before he can cast.
Another fallacy. If you've got all those buff spells up, you're just dying to be hit by dispels that wipe them, rendering you even more vulnerable. Stoneskin is bypassable with an adamantine weapon...or a +5 weapon. Mirror image can be gotten around with either the ability to see through illusions or your own mage or archer using multiple attacks on each one (the old Great cleave did the job too, as does Pierce Magical Concealment).
Fallacies.
==Aelryinth
stuffs
Grappling was nerfed -- however so is the concentration check to cast a spell while grappled -- you must already have the components in hand (in the case of a wizard this can be huge) and the DC is based on the opponent's CMD -- in several cases that's huge. A wizard can't be sure he'll have FoM at level 11, as it doesn't last long enough to have up at all times. Having a wand is great -- again if you already had it out.
Maybe you should double check the senses of creatures past level 11 -- just about everything has true seeing, blindsight, or some other similiar ability past that point. Illusions are next to useless at that level and beyond.
AC past level 11 is pointless? Somebody should give you a clue -- AC in pathfinder never becomes pointless -- especially since wealth by level is now at a point where you can easily afford enough AC to avoid damage (providing you can wear armor) and still have what you need to deal damage. If your monk can't survive that's his stupidity, the wizard's is in thinking that somehow he'll be ready at all times with everything possible.
Please do get started on spells -- if that's what you think of glitterdust it's going to be enjoyable watching you reference 3.5 material in a pathfinder conversation.
Perhaps you would be better off taking a look at the numbers before you continue though -- I don't think you quite realize how things have changed in pathfinder yet.
Animated shields are nerfed for casters since they still have to put up with the arcane spell failure. You're whole post reads like a list of "Reasons to actually read the rules instead of assuming it's the same as 3.5". It's sad.
Wealth by level for level 11 is 82,000 gp
Average Monster stats for level 11 are:
To hit: +23
AC: 25
HP: 160
So you want a character that is hit 20% of the time(ish) by CR equivlent creatures that can kill a CR equivlent creature in 1.5~2 rounds on average.
Human Mobile Fighter
Strength 18(20), Dex 16(18), Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 10
Cestus +2
Mighty(+5) Composite Longbow +1
Mithral Full plate +3
Quickdraw spiked light shield +3
Belt of physical might (strength and dex) +2
Cloak of resistance + 3
Embedded Dusty Rose Prism
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection + 1
Feats:
H -- Two weapon fighting
1st -- Power Attack
f1 -- Shield Slam
f2 -- Quick Draw
3 -- Deadly Aim
f4 -- Dodge
5 -- Point Blank Shot
f6 -- Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7 -- Shield Slam
f8 -- Rapid Shot
9 -- Shield Focus
f10 -- Improved Shield Focus
11 -- Shield Mastery
Leaping Attack (+2)
Weapon Training: Close
Base 10
Armor Bonus +12
Shield +6
Dex +5
Insight +1
Natural +1
Deflection +1
Dodge +1
AC 37
Full Attacks:
Cestus(+2) +17/+12/+7 (1d4+16 19~20/x2)
Light spiked shield(+3) +19/+14/+9 (1d4+11)
OR
Move 30
Cestus(+2) +12/+7
Light spiked shield(+3) +19/+14/+9 (1d4+11)
OR
Mighty Composite Longbow +1 15/+10/+5 (1d8+14)
OR
Mighty Composite Longbow +1 +13/+13/+10/+3 (1d8+14)
Str 16(20) Dex 13 Con 18 Int 11 Wis 16 Cha 5
Phalanx Fighter
1 -- Shield Focus
1 -- Power Attack
2 -- Weapon Focus
3 -- Missile Shield
4 -- Improved Shield Focus
5 -- Weapon Specialization
6 -- Disruptive
7 -- Dodge
8 -- Greater Weapon Focus
10 -- Spellbreaker
11 -- Ray Shield
Polearm +3
Full Plate +4
Tower Shield +4
Cloak of Resistance +3
Belt of Strength +2
Ring of Protection +2
Amulet of Natural armor +1
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone
Base 10
Full Plate +14
Dex +1
Tower Shield +11
Deflection +2
Natural Armor +1
Insight +1
Dodge +1
AC 40
Polearm +18/+13/+8 (1d10+18)
Strength 14(18), Dex 14, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 22(26), Cha 7
Half Elf
Zen Archer
1st Perfect Strike, Unarmed Strike, Precise Shot, Skill Focus(perception), Noble Scion(Narikopolus)
2nd Weapon Focus(longbow), Dodge
3rd Point blank Mastery, Deadly Aim
5th Nimble Moves
6th Weapon Specialization(longbow), Improved Precise Shot
7th toughness
9th Spider Step
10th Improved Critical(longbow)
11th Extra Ki
Monk's Robes
Belt of strength +4
Headband of Wisdom +4
Wand of Mage Armor
Wand of Shield
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
Ring of Protection +2
Cloak of Resistance +2
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Mighty Composite Longbow + 2
Handy Haversack
Base 10
Dex +2
Wisdom +8
Monk +4
Dodge +1
Armor +4
Shield +4
Insight +1
Deflection +2
Natural +1
AC 37 (possible 41 with a ki point)
LongBow +16/+16/+14/+14/+9 (1d8+16 19~20/x3) or (ki point damage increase) (2d8+16 19~20/x3) or (ki point extra attack) +16/+16/+16/+14/+14/+9 (1d8+16 19~20/x3)
Elf Fighter (freehand) 6, Duelist 5
Str 13 Dex 18(24) Con 14 Int 16(20) Wisdom 11 Cha 7
3 10 10 5 1 -4 =
Feats:
1 -- Power attack
1 -- Weapon Finesse
2 -- Weapon Focus(scimitar)
3 -- Dervish dance
4 -- Weapon Specialization(scimitar)
5 -- Dodge
6 -- Mobility
7 -- Improved Initiative
9 -- Improved Critical(scimitar)
11 -- Lunge
Belt of Dex +4
Headband of Int +4
Celestial Armor
Scimitar +2
Cloak of Resistance +3
Ring of Protection +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Buckler +2(animated)
Dusty Ioun Stone
BASE 10
Dex +7
Int +5
Dodge +3
Shield +3
Armor +9
Deflection +1
Natural +1
Insight +1
AC 40
Scimitar +19/+14/+9(1d8+23 15~20/x2)
All are very close (if not on) your "AC 40" demand without sacrificing the ability to still be useful or leaving pathfinder material, indeed I've not considered any buffing in these at all yet -- no haste spells, good hope, bards, nothing.
Human Bard(arcane Duelist) 7/ Dragon Disciple 4
Str 16(24), Dex 16(18), Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
Feats
1 -- Arcane Strike
1 -- weapon focus(longspear)
1 -- dodge
2 -- Combat casting
3 -- power attack
5th -- Lingering performance
6th -- Disruptive
7th -- Furious Focus
9th -- improve natural armor
11th -- Eldritch Claws
Trait -- armor training
Bloodline Robes
Mithral Breastplate +3
Animated Buckler +2
Longspear +2 8
Cloak of Resistance +2
Belt of Strength/Dex +2
Headband of Charisma +2
Ring of protection +2
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone
Base 10
Dex +4
Armor +9
Shield +3
Natural Armor +6
Dodge +1
Deflection +2
Insight +1
Haste +1
AC 37
Longspear +21/+18/+13 (1d8+26)
OR
Bite/Bite/Claw/Claw +21/+18/+18/+18 (Bite: 1d6+21 Claw: 1d6+15)
This is without good hope or any spell cast besides haste. It does assume Inspire courage is up, both haste and inspire courage could both be done in the first round of combat (together), if another round is spent good hope would be up giving another +2 to hit and damage with everything here meaning:
Longspear: +23/+20/+15 (1d8+28)
Bite/Bite/Claw/Claw +23/+21/+21/+21 (Bite: 1d6+23(magic/silver) claw: 1d6+17(magic/silver))
Cage match-ups are pointless.
The only metric that matters is the fact that a party of spellcasters will do fine against the monsters they are expected to encounter and a party of fighting guys won't. That discrepecy starts around level 3 when fighting guys can no longer fight things like Ogres and be expected to win without magical support.
One can even make the argument that fighting guys slow down combat and drain caster resources more than if there were no fighting guys present at all. More rounds means more damage taken, but with all spellcaster parties few enemies can survive a volley of 4-6 spells on round one meaning less time for monsters to attack.
Under Pathfinder, the uselessness of fighting guys is made worse since even Wizards can be wearing decent or even great armor at low levels.
Heck, Still Spell can just be used for all your spells.... the loss of any entire spell level is big, but wearing full plate and a Tower shield is pretty awesome.... and being a Wizard is so much better than being a fighting guy that it doesn't matter.
And that's above and beyond the fact that spellcasters are basically walking around with 2-3 times the magic treasure since they don't need to blow stacks of cash on weapons and armor.
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Wizards are GODS!!! Fighters suck! If you aren't playing a wizard, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG!!!!
Except not all campaigns run on a strictly enforced 4 level appropriate encounters per day structure. What if there are a dozen encounters with lower level minion types (lets say goblins or kobolds) and then one level-appropriate "boss" monster encounter?
Your spellcaster-only group have more than likely blown their load on the goblins, and will be pretty g+&&~*n useless against the "boss" monsters...if the hordes of goblins don't drag them down before they even get that far.
Whereas the fighters, having hacked their way through wave after wave of goblin fodder, will still be at nearly 100% of their full fighting capacity.
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HP are a finite resource. Your argument is invalid. So is your hyperbole.
At a certain point, the average goblin ceases to be any real threat to a fighter.
Hell, if I was the BBEG, and I knew that the party coming after me consisted solely of spellcasters, I'd be absolutely thrilled. Throw wave after wave of hordes of extremely low-level minions at them, then once they've been reduced to throwing out cantrips and orisons, go collect their heads.
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HP are a finite resource. Your argument is invalid. So is your hyperbole.Wizards are GODS!!! Fighters suck! If you aren't playing a wizard, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG!!!!Except not all campaigns run on a strictly enforced 4 level appropriate encounters per day structure. What if there are a dozen encounters with lower level minion types (lets say goblins or kobolds) and then one level-appropriate "boss" monster encounter?
Your spellcaster-only group have more than likely blown their load on the goblins, and will be pretty g~+%!*n useless against the "boss" monsters...if the hordes of goblins don't drag them down before they even get that far.
Whereas the fighters, having hacked their way through wave after wave of goblin fodder, will still be at nearly 100% of their full fighting capacity.
Yeh, HP are a finite resource, meaning that a fighting guy can't "hack through wave after wave" without major support from spellcasters.
Also, its a fact that spellcasters do better with waves of enemies because they use AoE spells and AoE control spells. I mean, no DM sends a wave of underleveled goblins at a Wizard with Fireball or Wall of Fire because it's not even worth the time to place the minis because they get knocked down on round one.
That's not even mentioning the fact that the Wizards can fly, teleport, or just walk past those hordes while invisible. Remember, you don't have to kill things to count as defeating them, so charming a goblin to escort you into the enemy camp and past the various guards and straight to the BBEG nets you as much XP as hacking your way through them.
Spellcasters are better at combat, better at adventuring, and better at affecting the game world. It's not even a contest.
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Yeh, HP are a finite resource, meaning that a fighting guy can't "hack through wave after wave" without major support from spellcasters.
Also, its a fact that spellcasters do better with waves of enemies because they use AoE spells and AoE control spells. I mean, no DM sends a wave of underleveled goblins at a Wizard with Fireball or Wall of Fire because it's not even worth the time to place the minis because they get knocked down on round one.
That's not even mentioning the fact that the Wizards can fly, teleport, or just walk past those hordes while invisible. Remember, you don't have to kill things to count as defeating them, so charming a goblin to escort you into the enemy camp and past the various guards and straight to the BBEG nets you as much XP as hacking your way through them.
Spellcasters are better at combat, better at adventuring, and better at affecting the game world. It's not even a contest.
I agree with you on the hit points, but that's about it.
Burning through your fireballs and walls of fire is the point of hordes of minions. I'm guessing you're also assuming these combats are happening in areas of open space and great range, which is the ususal "I win" scenario for most casters rule everything arguments.
Teleport is risky, you require knowledge of where you're going and those few words about "areas of great physical or magical energy may make it more dangerous" are beautiful when designing dungeons as a GM.
Any spell that requires the DM to interpret the actions of a victim of said spell, or the conjured minion of such a spell, is open to the GM to do with as they feel appropriate for a creature of that type. Charm is the most easily worked around spell in the book. Dominate is a little harder, but still requires careful wording. An illusion is open to the GM's interpretation of how teh enemies percieve it and what the word "Interact with" means.
In other words, magic users are only as powerful in a game as a GM lets them be. If your GM coddles your casters so they get everything they want, then they become these apparent behemoths of power. Most of the GM's I know are very good at running worlds that respond to players as well as run on consistant in world rules. None of us have problems with casters vs fighter balance.
I will admit that it is easier for casters to find potential loopholes to exploit against inexperienced GMs who may have designed their scenarios inapropriately (such as hordes of low HP minions rushing across open fields while the BBEG stands behind them on a hill in the open with no guards).
One thing though, healing magic or a healing mechanic is essential for a succesful party. Everything else is optional, as has been proven by umpteen parties of variable build since this game began.
Cheers
FoM lasts just under 2 hours. Extend can double this. Plenty of time to clear the dungeon on a single cast. Of course this isn't because of some silly little Monk, it's because of Huge and larger grapple fiends. Who would otherwise grab you anyways.
You are either using rods or feats to pull this off. You can't do this with enough spells often enough to make it something you can count on regularly.
There are 23 CR 11 monsters in the PFSRD.
I count much more but then again I also use the back of the book where it discusses how to advance monsters. There's something that is often missed in these discussions.
Of these, exactly ONE has Blindsight. It lacks the offense to follow up. It also can't fly. Exactly ONE has True Seeing. It too lacks the offense to follow up and same deal about the flying. A fair number of them, mostly dragons have Blindsense, but Blindsense explicitly does not foil any of those miss chances.
Displacement, Mirror Image etc is still near perfectly effective. Your argument is invalid.
Can you tell me how displacement or mirror image helps against area effects like breath weapons and other spells? How do they help against mind effecting spells and abilities? How do they help with gaze attacks? How do they help with noxious fumes? I think I'll stop there. I think I've done enough to show that they aren't "near perfectly effective" and therefore the argument remains valid.
Here's a fun CR 11 creature you probably didn't know exists in the Bestiary:
UNNAMED HERO CR 11
Male Aboleth
LE Gargantuan Undead (Aquatic, Augmented Aberration)
Init +8; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +27
Aura Mucus Cloud (DC 21)
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DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 33, touch 11, flat-footed 28. . (+4 Dex, -4 size, +22 natural, +1 dodge)
hp 100 (8d8+64); Fast Healing 5
Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +14
Defensive Abilities Channel Resistance +4; DR 10/magic, 10/silver; Immune Undead Traits; Resist cold 10, electricity 10
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OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 10 ft., Swimming (60 feet)
Melee Slam (Vampire) +14 (3d6+12/20/x2) and
. . Tentacle x4 (Aboleth) +15 x4 (1d8+12/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +14/+9 (1d8+12/20/x2)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 20 ft.
Special Attacks Blood Drain, Children of the Night (1/day), Create Spawn, Dominate (DC 21), Energy Drain (2 levels) (DC 21), Slime (DC 21)
Spell-Like Abilities Dominate Monster (3/day), Hypnotic Pattern (At will), Illusory Wall (At will), Mirage Arcana (At will), Persistent Image (At will), Programmed Image (At will), Project Image (At will), Veil (At will)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 34, Dex 18, Con -, Int 21, Wis 23, Cha 25
Base Atk +6; CMB +22; CMD 37 (can't be Tripped)
Feats Alertness, Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round), Dodge, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Toughness +8, Weapon Focus: Tentacle
Skills Bluff +23, Escape Artist +15, Fly +9, Intimidate +18, Know: Local +13, Perception +27, Sense Motive +16, Spellcraft +16, Stealth +11, Swim +31
Languages Aboleth, Abyssal, Aklo, Aquan, Draconic, Elven, Undercommon
SQ Change Shape (dire bat or wolf, beast shape II) (Su), Gaseous Form (Su), Spider Climb (Ex)
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Children of the Night (1/day) (Su) - 0/1
Dominate Monster (3/day) (Sp) - 0/3
Hypnotic Pattern (At will) (Sp) - 0/0
Illusory Wall (At will) (Sp) - 0/0
Mirage Arcana (At will) (Sp) - 0/0
Persistent Image (At will) (Sp) - 0/0
Programmed Image (At will) (Sp) - 0/0
Project Image (At will) (Sp) - 0/0
Veil (At will) (Sp) - 0/0
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Blood Drain (Ex) Suck blood with a Grapple check (1d4 CON drain) to gain 5 HP.
Change Shape (dire bat or wolf, beast shape II) (Su) You can change your form.
Channel Resistance +4 +4 bonus to save vs. Channel Energy.
Children of the Night (1/day) (Su) Call forth rats, bats or wolves as a standard action.
Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round) You may make up to 5 attacks of apportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Create Spawn (Ex) Opponents killed by Energy Drain rise 1d4 days after burial.
Damage Reduction (10/magic) You have Damage Reduction against all except Magic attacks.
Damage Reduction (10/silver) You have Damage Reduction against all except Silver attacks.
Damage Resistance, Cold (10) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Damage Resistance, Electricity (10) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Dominate (DC 21) (Ex) As Dominate Person spell, takes standard action.
Energy Drain (2 levels) (DC 21) (Ex) This attack saps a living opponent's vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature's description specifies how many). If an attack that includ
Fast Healing 5 (Ex) You heal damage every round if you have > 1 HP.
Gaseous Form (Su) Assume Gaseous Form at will (as the spell).
Mucus Cloud (DC 21) (Ex) While underwater, an aboleth exudes a cloud of transparent slime. All creatures adjacent to an aboleth must succeed on a DC 20 Fortitude save each round or lose the ability to breathe air (but gain the ability to breathe water) for 3 hours. Renewed c
Slime (DC 21) (Ex) A creature hit by an aboleth's tentacle must succeed on a DC 20 Fortitude save or his skin and flesh transform into a clear, slimy membrane over the course of 1d4 rounds. The creature's new 'flesh' is soft and tender, reducing its Constitution score
Spider Climb (Ex) A vampire can climb sheer surfaces as though under the effects of a spider climb spell.
Swimming (60 feet) You have a Swim speed.
Undead Traits Undead are immune to death effects, disease, mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, phantasms, and patterns), paralysis, poison, sleep, stun, and any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects
Burning through your fireballs and walls of fire is the point of hordes of minions. I'm guessing you're also assuming these combats are happening in areas of open space and great range, which is the ususal "I win" scenario for most casters rule everything arguments.
Casters are even better in enclosed spaces considering how AoE control spells work. I mean, a Wall of Fire has a duration of Concentration so you can literally throw an unlimited number of goblins at it.
And even systematic attempts by a DM to nerf what spellcasters can do won't succeed. I mean, the instant the party figures out that the DM is going to be a jerk and try to interpret every rule against them or come up with fiat reasons for their spells to not work, they'll either quit the game and find a new DM or just use spells that have ironclad interpretations.
I mean, using invisibility to just avoid masses of mooks is a far more elegant solution than murdering them all. Defeating an enemy does not mean you have to kill them.... you totally get XP for overcoming obstacles instead of murdering them. The only reason parties don't do it as a common tactic is because spellcasters get tired of blowing all their spell slots on non-casters.
Making wizardly examples based on him casting ahead of time are as invalid as making examples where the Fighter bursts out of suprise due to superior positioning/tactics and is up on the caster before he can cast.
Another fallacy. If you've got all those buff spells up, you're just dying to be hit by dispels that wipe them, rendering you even more vulnerable. Stoneskin is bypassable with an adamantine weapon...or a +5 weapon. Mirror image can be gotten around with either the ability to see through illusions or your own mage or archer using multiple attacks on each one (the old Great cleave did the job too, as does Pierce Magical Concealment).
Fallacies.
==Aelryinth
* Not even a little bit. Things are not reciprocal simply because that would seem to be fair, that is false equivolency. This isn't a duel they are agreeing to, this is comparing the options of one class to another. If anything, given the nature of spells the wizard would get both the spell buffs AND the positioning.
* I do agree that those counters seem reasonable for those spells. But you have to recognize that you are put in the reactive position in those cases. If you "win", you've rendered those effects 0. If you don't, you suffer them.
* You aren't more vulnerable than you were, you are the same as you would have been had your not. Even if the dispel gets lucky and removes all your affects you are back to square 1.
Here's another fun one that you may have missed:
UNNAMED HERO CR 11
Male Bat Swarm
NN Diminutive Animal (Swarm)
Init +9; Senses Blindsense (20 feet), Low-Light Vision; Perception +15
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 21, touch 19, flat-footed 16. . (+5 Dex, +4 size, +2 natural)
hp 97 (3d8+44)
Fort +12, Ref +14, Will +7
Immune Swarm Traits
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 5 ft., Flying (40 feet, Good)
Melee Unarmed Strike +10/+5 (--2/20/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks Distraction (DC 20), Swarm Attack (3d6), Wounding
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 7, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 18, Cha 8
Base Atk +8; CMB +9; CMD 17
Feats Ability Focus: Distraction, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Skill Focus: Perception, Toughness +11
Skills Fly +19, Perception +15, Stealth +25 Modifiers +4 Perception for Blindsense
Languages
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
. . -none-
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
+4 Perception for Blindsense +4 to Perception checks while using blindsense.
Blindsense (20 feet) (Ex) Sense things and creatures without seeing them.
Distraction (DC 20) (Ex) A creature with this ability can nauseate the creatures that it damages. Any living creature that takes damage from a creature with the distraction ability is nauseated for 1 round; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 creature's HD + creature's Con modifie
Flying (40 feet, Good) You can fly!
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Swarm Attack (3d6) Creatures with the swarm subtype don't make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. Swarm attacks are not subject to a miss chance for c
Swarm Traits A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernible anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures
Wounding (Ex) Any living creature damaged by a bat swarm continues to bleed, losing 1 hit point per round thereafter. Multiple wounds do not result in cumulative bleeding loss. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 10 Heal check or the application of a cure spell
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Casters are even better in enclosed spaces considering how AoE control spells work. I mean, a Wall of Fire has a duration of Concentration so you can literally throw an unlimited number of goblins at it.
You seem to think that all bad guys should be played as complete f'n morons...I mean, we're not even talking animal Int of 1 or 2 here...we're talking Int -. Even goblins know if they see a wall a fire, not to walk into it.
Oh, and if you think a spell duration of 2 hours is enough to last through an entire dungeon, then you've never gone into a big (or even medium sized) dungeon. Much less a mega-dungeon.
Casters are even better in enclosed spaces considering how AoE control spells work. I mean, a Wall of Fire has a duration of Concentration so you can literally throw an unlimited number of goblins at it.You seem to think that all bad guys should be played as complete f'n morons...I mean, we're not even talking animal Int of 1 or 2 here...we're talking Int -. Even goblins know if they see a wall a fire, not to walk into it.
That's why you hide it in a Fog Cloud, or an illusion. :P
But my actual point was how this is a perfect defense, much like flying is in an open field. I mean, you can do the same thing with a field of Black Tentacles where you stand on one side of it and use ranged spells to kill enemies on the other side and they can either die trying to get to you or die staying away from you.
Chokepoints are a wizard's best friend when dealing with masses of mooks.
Here's a fun EL 11 that you may have missed in the books:
UNNAMED HERO CR 9
Male Shambling Mound
NN Large Dragon ((Plant))
Init +2; Senses Darkvision (60 feet), Low-Light Vision; Perception +18
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 27, touch 11, flat-footed 25. . (+2 Dex, -1 size, +16 natural)
hp 112 (9d8+72)
Fort +14, Ref +7, Will +7
Immune acid, electricity, mind-affecting, paralysis, poison, polymorph, sleep, stunning; Resist fire 10
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft., Flying (40 feet, Average), Swimming (20 feet)
Melee Bite (Half-Dragon) +16 (1d8+11/20/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Half-Dragon) +16 x2 (1d6+11/20/x2) and
. . Constrict (Shambling Mound) +16 (2d6+11/20/x2) and
. . Slam x2 (Shambling Mound) +17 x2 (2d6+11/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +16/+11 (1d4+11/20/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks Breath Weapon (1/day) (DC 22), Grab
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 33, Dex 14, Con 27, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 15
Base Atk +6; CMB +18 (+22 Grappling); CMD 30
Feats Cleave, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack -2/+4, Weapon Focus: Slam
Skills Fly +12, Knowledge: Arcana +10, Knowledge: Religion +10, Linguistics +10, Perception +18, Spellcraft +10, Stealth +14, Swim +19 Modifiers +8 Stealth in swamps or forest
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Halfling, Infernal, Orc, Sylvan, Treant
SQ Electric Fortitude (Ex)
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Breath Weapon (1/day) (DC 22) (Su) - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
+8 Stealth in swamps or forest (Ex) You gain a bonus to Stealth Checks under the listed conditions.
Breath Weapon (1/day) (DC 22) (Su) 1/day, Breath Weapon deals 9d6 Acid damage, DC 22.
Cleave If you hit your first target, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus in exchange for -2 AC.
Damage Resistance, Fire (10) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Electric Fortitude (Ex) Shambling mounds take no damage from electricity. Instead, any electricity attack used against a shambling mound temporarily increases its Constitution score by 1d4 points. The shambling mound loses these temporary points at the rate of 1 per hour.
Flying (40 feet, Average) You can fly!
Grab (Medium) (Ex) You can start a grapple as a free action if you hit with the designated weapon.
Immunity to Acid You are immune to acid damage.
Immunity to Electricity You are immune to electricity damage.
Immunity to Mind-Affecting attacks You are immune to Mind-Affecting attacks.
Immunity to Paralysis You are immune to paralysis.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Immunity to Polymorph You are immune to Polymorph effects.
Immunity to Sleep You are immune to sleep effects.
Immunity to Stunning You are immune to being stunned.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Swimming (20 feet) You have a Swim speed.
And three:
UNNAMED HERO CR 6
Male Shocker Lizard
NN Medium Magical Beast
Init +7; Senses Darkvision (60 feet), Electricity Sense, Low-Light Vision; Perception +12
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 18, touch 13, flat-footed 15. . (+3 Dex, +5 natural)
hp 55 (3d10+24)
Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +5
Immune electricity
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 40 ft., Climbing (20 feet), Swimming (20 feet)
Melee Bite (Shocker Lizard) +10 (1d6+6/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +10/+5 (1d3+4/20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 17, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +10; CMD 23 (27 vs. Trip)
Feats Ability Focus: Shock, Improved Initiative, Skill Focus: Stealth
Skills Climb +12, Perception +12, Stealth +15, Swim +12
Languages
SQ Shock (DC 19) (Su)
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
. . -none-
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Climbing (20 feet) You have a Climb speed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Electricity Sense (Ex) Shocker lizards automatically detect any electrical discharges within 100 feet.
Immunity to Electricity You are immune to electricity damage.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Shock (DC 19) (Su) Shocker lizards can deliver an electrical shock to a single opponent within 5 feet. This attack deals 1d8 points of nonlethal electricity damage to living opponents (Reflex DC 12 half ). This save DC is Constitution-based. Additionally, if two or mor
Swimming (20 feet) You have a Swim speed.
So your argument on shields is the fact that your group believes that the only way to deal damage is to two hand in melee? You also forget that divine casters do lose something important: They can't use two handed weapons, and if they use a heavy shield they lose the ability to hold a weapon and cast a spell at the same time. Of course the easy thing would be to not use a heavy shield so I believe that issue is fairly ignorable, but the two handed issue probably does a number on any damage the divine caster is going to do in melee, especially since most his buffing spells have been nerfed hard (primarily in that they don't stack any more) and his BAB doesn't allow him to get prime use of feats like the martial characters can.
Anyways: Here you go, One pathfinder character with AC 41 and DPR over 104, using 25 PB point buy, 82,000 gp
Mobile fighter 11
Human
Strength 20(22) Dex 16(18) Con 12 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 7
25 -10(+2+1+1+2) -10(+2) -2 -5 -2 +4 = 0
Weapon Training:Close
Leap Attack
Threatening Defender(trait)
1 -- Two weapon fighting
1 -- Weapon Focus(heavy shield)
1 -- Weapon Focus(cestus)
2 -- Shield Bash
3 -- power attack
4 -- Weapon Specialization(Cestus)
5 -- Shield Focus
6 -- Improved Two weapon fighting
7 -- Shield Slam
8 -- Greater weapon Focus(Cestus)
9 -- Combat Expertise
10 -- Desperate Battler
11 -- Shield Mastery
Cestus +2
Full plate +3
light Spiked Shield +3
Belt of Physical Might +2(strength and Dexterity)
Ring of Protection +1
Cloak of Resistance +2
Gloves of Dueling
Fetish of Natural Armor +2
Embedded Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone
Boots of Speed
Base 10
Armor 12
Shield 5
Dex 4
Deflection 1
Natural 2
Insight 1
Dodge 5 (dodge, combat expertise, and haste)
Full Attack:
+20/+15/+10 Cestus +2 (1d4+22 19~20/x2)
+22/+17 Heavy Spiked Shield +3 (1d4+15)
Average DPR: 84
Haste Full Attack:
+21/+21/+16/+11 (1d4+22 19~20/x2)
+23/+18 (1d6+15)
Average DPR: 101
BAB +11
Strength +6
Weapon Training +3
Leaping Attack +2
Desperate battler +1
Magic +2/+3
Weapon Focus +2/+1 (weapon specialization +2/+0)
Haste +1/+1 (extra attack with cestus)
Two weapon fighting -2/-0
Combat Expertise -2/-2 (threatening defender lessens by 1)
Power attack -3/-3 (+6 damage/ +3 damage)
+21/+23 to hit +22 to damage cestus/ +15 to damage light spiked shield
Right now I'm playing an 8th-level caster in a campaign. The best, most powerful spell in my arsenal is Haste. It's not even my highest spell level, but it's more effective in combats that really matter than Black Tentacles or Enervation.
Evervation is a terrible spell. Considering how just about every spell is better, I understand.
Black Tentacles is situational. If you have melee fighting guys who insist on positioning themselves so that you can't use the spell effectively, then I can see how you don't get a lot of use out of it.
I mean, that's my whole point. It actually takes more spells per fight to support fighting guys than it takes to just win the encounter without them.
Hey Bob,
Whatever point you are trying to make by printing out copyrighted monsters is lost on everyone else, especially considering that those are not the ones in the open-content PRD that the poster was talking about.
Please stop "wall of texting" the thread with content you should not be posting.
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Burning through your fireballs and walls of fire is the point of hordes of minions. I'm guessing you're also assuming these combats are happening in areas of open space and great range, which is the ususal "I win" scenario for most casters rule everything arguments.
Casters are even better in enclosed spaces considering how AoE control spells work. I mean, a Wall of Fire has a duration of Concentration so you can literally throw an unlimited number of goblins at it.
And even systematic attempts by a DM to nerf what spellcasters can do won't succeed. I mean, the instant the party figures out that the DM is going to be a jerk and try to interpret every rule against them or come up with fiat reasons for their spells to not work, they'll either quit the game and find a new DM or just use spells that have ironclad interpretations.
I mean, using invisibility to just avoid masses of mooks is a far more elegant solution than murdering them all. Defeating an enemy does not mean you have to kill them.... you totally get XP for overcoming obstacles instead of murdering them. The only reason parties don't do it as a common tactic is because spellcasters get tired of blowing all their spell slots on non-casters.
Ha!, again your taking this to mena what's best for your caster. I didn't mention choke points anywhere. Multiple points of egress and attack make dungeons interesting, not linear progressions. Casters get into all sorts of fun times when those happen.
Invisibilty sneaking past gets sorted by anything with scent. Lets take your goblin frends for example, they have wolves as a typical matter of course. But then why bother with something like that. Lets deal with teh invisible casters worst enemy. The locked door.
Charming one mook to get past all the mooks (example provided above) doesn't work, since the other mooks aren't cahrmed and unless the guy you're using has massive ranks in diplomacy or intimidate, they aren't going to fall for it.
This is not systematic nerfing of what casters can do, but natural interpretation of how creatures will respond. Charm something that's chaotic evil, and it's idea of what a friend is differs to what a lawful good creature is. How it acts is completely at Gm discretion, and like most of us who GM, we are discretionary to good game experience. Sometimes the situation works exactly as the player wants because it makes sense, sometimes it doesn't because that makes sense too. I've never had a player leave my game yet.
What I find in these threads is casters expect everything to work exactly as they wish, and when suddenly things aren't going their way, it must be the GM being a jerk. Let them use their spells with iron clad interpretations, my job as GM is easier. Let them try the other type, and my job as GM becomes more interesting, and allows me to grow the game world and the scenario.
It's rare when people see this kind of imbalance pop up in play, mostly because the checks and balances are there, and most GM's know how to use them. When you get GM's that let the casters always get their way, you get the misconception that casters rule everything. Casters have limitations, and they're pretty tight when played well by the GM. This is particularly true when a caster is played from level 1 through to level 20 (I've GM'd plenty like this).
Imbalnces in games come from player style differnces more than mechanical ones.
Cheers
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Evervation is a terrible spell. Considering how just about every spell is better, I understand.
Black Tentacles is situational. If you have melee fighting guys who insist on positioning themselves so that you can't use the spell effectively, then I can see how you don't get a lot of use out of it.
I mean, that's my whole point. It actually takes more spells per fight to support fighting guys than it takes to just win the encounter without them.
That is simply not true, and I don't think you can back up those words. I know I would be dead without my melee types. The flying Erinyes with high saves, SR, and five levels of assassin who ambushed us a little while ago would have killed me had I been alone. Assuming I saved out of her death attack, she had a good enough DPR to drop me in two rounds. Any SoD effect I can hit her with would have had a pitiful chance of landing, and her initiative was much better than mine. In fact, she wouldn't have needed the five levels of assassin had I been alone, she could have easily killed me without them.
And enervation is a wonderful spell. It can lower saves without provoking a save and kill opponents without touching their HP. If you haven't found a use for it, then I can't really trust your expertise as a D&D/Pathfinder caster.
But I'm still going to give you a chance to show me otherwise. Tell me: what kind of spells (levels 1-4) are so brilliant that they can reliably win encounters without the support of fighting characters? I'll give you some specific encounters, to be more realistic.
- An Erinyes ambushes you from above. Assume she has a surprise round and wins initiative on the first round, and attempts to summon two bearded devils in the surprise round. CR 8 encounter.
- Two Hill Giants (CR 9 encounter) attack you in the woods. You win initiative, but they are able to close into melee range with a single move action. They are coming from opposite directions. One of them is holding an item that you need in order to win this encounter.
- Four Trolls (CR 10 encounter) guard a locked, trapped door you must pass in order to win. They do not have keys to the door, but they know how to avoid the trap and can chase you through the door. The trap is a wyvern poison trap. You win initiative, and you know where they are ahead of time.
There. Three encounters at or near CR. How would your single spellcaster (8th level) deal with all three of these encounters in one day?
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So, a flying archer? Who can attack you just as well regardless of if other people are there or not, because she is a flying archer? And since the melee guys aren't flying...
Do explain how the melee guys were supposed to help here. Now explain how having more casters wouldn't be better.
Martial types have BAB of significance. They were the only people in the group who could hit this flying archer with anything. Even though ours were all melee-focused, they still had missile weapons that could actually hit. They also had much better AC and HP than I did. The synergy between our cleric (healing) and fighting guy (high AC and HP) meant that nobody had to die.
Now she could have gone for me. She could have killed me. Pretty easily, too. But I wasn't really a threat. With those guys who actually deal damage around, there was not much reason to target this wizard. I had magic missile, but not enough to bring her down. She saved out of my glitterdust, but it kept her from hiding and sneak-attacking. Then, I managed to land a ray of exhaustion, which lowered her DPR to manageable levels. It's not like I wasn't doing anything, I just wasn't the one killing her. And she knew that I couldn't possibly kill her on my own. If she could have taken out the real threats (our martial dudes), then the whole thing would have swiftly gone into TPK land.
The rest of your argument is a strawman. K isn't arguing for solo casters. He is arguing that a team that has all casters is better than one that has both casters and martial types.
I mean, that's my whole point. It actually takes more spells per fight to support fighting guys than it takes to just win the encounter without them.
That sure sounds a lot like an argument for the solo caster to me. But if it makes you feel better, I'll accept a solution to all the above problems with two casters: a cleric and a wizard. If casters are every bit as superior as you say they are, they should be able to handle those encounters. Go.