Visual effects of spells, buffs and combat actions

[Wurner]

This thread is intended for discussion of the visual effects that accompany the casting of spells and buffs, combat actions etcetera. The aim is to find out what the community thinks about these effects - what should they look like and how spectacular should they be.

I believe that now is the right time to discuss this, from the latest video it seems that not a lot of particle effects are in the game yet. If we are to have a say in what the effects will look like, better speak up now than after they have already been implemented.

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My personal view is this: the particle effects of most MMORPGs are too showy. "Physical" actions, like swinging a sword or firing an arrow, should not be accompanied by "magical-looking" effects, e.g. purple or red light tracing the object and sparking off upon impact. Buffs should not "tint" the character a certain color or provide a glowy aura, unless it makes perfect sense for it to do so (like stoneskin, fireshield). "Discrete" should be the guiding principle to follow rather than "spectacular".

I'm interested in reading other people's opinions on these matters.

[Being]

I recall I did not care for turning into an ent when I cast 'barkskin'. I liked allowing my character look like my character. Polymorphing into an Ent, sure, but barkskin should be more subtle.

[Wurner]

It must have been Neverwinter Nights 1 or 2 where barkskin turned my char into a walking log... made me want to close my eyes until the fights were over and the effect wore off. Don't know if it was for better or for worse that all the other fancy lasershow spell effects impaired visibility so I didn't have to see it. Good example of a "bad" example.

[Gaskon]

If tracking buffs is an important combat skill, then I would like them to be visually obvious, even if this breaks immersion.

I don't want there to be any need for addons or hacks that track the combat log for you to display buffs.

I'd like them to be obvious enough that you don't have to target the character to identify what buffs are on them.

If two archers are shooting at me, and one of them has an active "haste" spell cast on him by the mage, I should be able to easily identify that buff and make choices appropriately.

I would even prefer an un-realistic icon floating over their head if needed.

Information that a character knows should be presented by the UI so that the player can easily interpret it.

[Morbis]

I will fall firmly into the 'As obvious as possible, without making my eyes bleed.' camp.

As a competitive PvP gamer I thrive off of information. Every single decision should be calculated, thought through and considered before being made. In combat those decisions have to be made at lightning speed, with as little hesitation as possible. I need to know which of my debuffs are still being applied, which of my buffs I need to refresh, at which point of the animation cycle my attacks are actually going off. Strong particle effects are both the clearest and the easiest method for showing that.

While there are benefits to being completely unaware of a players capabilities before engaging them (it tends to lower random ganking, for one), there are fewer to restricting that information once combat has actually begun. I would be disappointed if Goblinworks decided against making that information as transparent as physically possible. At the very least I would hope that they would provide toggles so that players who want that information can display it with ease.

[Nihimon]

I'd like the user to be able to control the degree of particle effects.

My personal preference is that the particle effects are just enough to convey meaning. I'm really not into spectacle at all, and I probably have an unwarranted aversion to massive particle effects because of my years of experience with them lagging me out in raids.

Gaskon wrote:

I'd like them to be obvious enough that you don't have to target the character to identify what buffs are on them.

That sounds like quite a challenge.

Gaskon wrote:

If two archers are shooting at me, and one of them has an active "haste" spell cast on him by the mage, I should be able to easily identify that buff and make choices appropriately.

I would think that would require some kind of Detect Magic ability, or something similar.

[Gaskon]

Nihimon wrote:

I would think that would require some kind of Detect Magic ability, or something similar.

I was trying to think of a buff that would be immediately obvious to the character.

If the archer suddenly starts moving faster with his arms a blur as he nocks extra arrows, that buff has an obvious effect to my character, but I doubt GW is going to create a whole new set of animations for haste buff so it is equally obvious to me as a player.

I might not know who cast it, or if he drank a potion or something, but I certainly should be able to see the results without needing a detect magic.

[Nihimon]

Gaskon wrote:

Nihimon wrote:

I would think that would require some kind of Detect Magic ability, or something similar.

I was trying to think of a buff that would be immediately obvious to the character.

If the archer suddenly starts moving faster with his arms a blur as he nocks extra arrows, that buff has an obvious effect to my character, but I doubt GW is going to create a whole new set of animations for haste buff so it is equally obvious to me as a player.

I might not know who cast it, or if he drank a potion or something, but I certainly should be able to see the results without needing a detect magic.

Gotcha. You're seeing the results of the magic, not the magic itself. Makes sense.

[Andius]

I would like to have very obvious visual audio effects when I successfully land or fail with a spell / attack.

An obvious visual effect on the character for each effect on them is a bit much, though some obvious indication of damage / healing ticks is good.

[Gaskon]

I guess it also depends on how many small buffs the average character will be running.

If you have +1 because you just ate at a tavern, and +2 because you used a whetstone on your sword and +1 because the paladin behind you has a leadership feat, and extra strength because the cleric cast a mass bull strength spell, then I don't feel the need to make all those visually apparent.

But, if you activate some ability that has a large magnitude effect for a short duration, then those should have obvious visual / auditory indicators.

[AvenaOats]

Keep it light. Escalation of flashier and flashier effects = visual arms-race.

Maybe more use of the UI instead of visual fireworks everywhere for everyone? I mean make the information more of what your character is feedbacking on in their head? I don't think it has to be mega-impressive for all players present. Maybe lvl 20 a bit more impressive.

[Andius]

I can see that, for instance bubbles for short duration damage absorption effects. But if you are crippled, dazed, shaken, bleeding, as well as being buffed by virtue, a paladin aura, etc. getting lit up like a Christmas tree is just a sensory overload. And that won't even be that uncommon for someone getting focus fired in a group fight.

[Lifedragn]

I would go back to the Source of the magic. By the books, Arcane Magic is usually fairly flashy and showy and Divine Magic is more subtle in appearance. Martial skills and abilities should definitely be toned down of the flashy particle effects.

[Imbicatus]

I remember playing City of Heroes one time I was buffed by Sonic shields, Thermal Shields, Force Fields, Kinetics, and Empathy at the same time on top of my own electric armor. You could't see my toon at ALL because of all the particle effects crapping over everything.

I'd much prefer subtle clues instead of overwhelming effects.

[Andius]

Lifedragn wrote:

I would go back to the Source of the magic. By the books, Arcane Magic is usually fairly flashy and showy and Divine Magic is more subtle in appearance. Martial skills and abilities should definitely be toned down of the flashy particle effects.

If we do it that way there should still be a strong audio component to divine spells. I don't want to be left guessing if my spells hit or not when combat gets intense.

[Ashgan]

Imbicatus wrote:

I remember playing City of Heroes one time I was buffed by Sonic shields, Thermal Shields, Force Fields, Kinetics, and Empathy at the same time on top of my own electric armor. You could't see my toon at ALL because of all the particle effects crapping over everything.

I'd much prefer subtle clues instead of overwhelming effects.

subtle for sure but something there would definitely be nice so you know at a glance, especially since some combat abilities are supposed to make use of some debuffs etc if I recall right.

[LazarX]

Wurner wrote:

This thread is intended for discussion of the visual effects that accompany the casting of spells and buffs, combat actions etcetera. The aim is to find out what the community thinks about these effects - what should they look like and how spectacular should they be.

I believe that now is the right time to discuss this, from the latest video it seems that not a lot of particle effects are in the game yet. If we are to have a say in what the effects will look like, better speak up now than after they have already been implemented.

----------------------

My personal view is this: the particle effects of most MMORPGs are too showy. "Physical" actions, like swinging a sword or firing an arrow, should not be accompanied by "magical-looking" effects, e.g. purple or red light tracing the object and sparking off upon impact. Buffs should not "tint" the character a certain color or provide a glowy aura, unless it makes perfect sense for it to do so (like stoneskin, fireshield). "Discrete" should be the guiding principle to follow rather than "spectacular".

I'm interested in reading other people's opinions on these matters.

People play MMORGS for visual effect. that's what the market wants and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that aesthetic.

What you're going to find is that there isn't likely to be a community consensus, merely a lot of varying individual opinions. I'm of the opinion that there's no need for every caster to be the same on every effect. You'll see personal touches which won't change the spellcraft dc's on identification but they will mark one caster from another.

[Wurner]

Here are some examples from GW2 of what I consider too spectacular particle effects:

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

Exhibit C

note: I found those pics on the net. I don't know any of the persons depicted, nor a whole lot about GW2.

[Being]

Save the over-the-top pyrotechnics for the most rare abilities. Require sound effects to be in proportion with visual effects.

[Andius]

Wurner wrote:

Here are some examples from GW2 of what I consider too spectacular particle effects:

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

Exhibit C

note: I found those pics on the net. I don't know any of the persons depicted, nor a whole lot about GW2.

Once visuals get that spectacular it actually gets harder to see what's going on. All you're doing is crapping more colors into the giant mess. They do make non-magical attacks a bit shiny but Lord of The Rings Online and The Old Republic do a pretty good job of making it easy to see and hear what's going on.

[Lifedragn]

The red and white rings on the ground are to denote AoE effects from enemies or allies. They are awesome when solo or in small groups for knowing how to move, but once you reach more than a handful of them on the ground they only add confusion.

[Hobs the Short]

Could spell visual effects be an item for sale in the cash shop? The standard spell effect is fine, but if you want something fancier, or a custom color, etc., would people buy it? For instance, Tom the Blue Mage wants all his fire spells to have blue flame.

[Aleron]

I'd prefer common sense be employed.

Spells that should have an obvious effect (stoneskin and mirror image being good examples in my mind) should definitely have some visual cue and probably be recognizable on sight. The others could be perhaps detected through detect magic and spellcraft depending how it is implemented eventually.

[Hobs the Short]

Aleron,

I had thought about that when I replied - that having a set type of effect helped identify what spell was cast - but I think there's still room for some personalization of those effects, such as color and the like.

[Andius]

Color customization of spells is actually one of the best MTX suggestions I've seen so far. I seriously hate being locked into a spell color I don't like. Force lightning is BLUE dammit! Not purple!

[Lhan]

I wanted to suggest MTX customisation earlier. If all spells have the same verbal and somatic components when being cast, that should ensure recognition by other players. Colour customisation could be the first step;way down the line would it be possible to have magic missiles that appear as cold blue bolts for one caster, but flaming red skulls for another? It might be too much in terms of art assets, but a choice of 5 or 6 components in the game store to be mixed and matched with a range of colours would create a lot of player choice.

[Perchance to Dream]

One aspect of magic use that I would love to see, though possibly hated by others, is the requirement for spell components. One of the most interesting aspects of a mage, for me, is the forward planning required in the choice of spells selected and their requirements based on the verbal, somantic and material components.

If components are required than shop bought or in world coloured powders that change the visual aspects of certain spells would be a nice touch. It might even get me to actually purchase something from a shop!

[Perchance to Dream]

In terms of visual cues for buffs, I would prefer these to be kept to a minimum. If someone casts an enlarge - the person grows in size but does not have an icon floating above his head or glow a nice shade of purple.

I have raided in other games and the requirement to keep an eye on the buff/debuff counters and the boss dance steps actually reduces my enjoyment as I feel divorced from the encounter. Having to load numerous external apps that keep a track on everything, just to take part in the game should not be necessary and it should be up to players to remember when and who needs to have spells cast on them.

Maybe I am being a bit idealistic but I want the UI to be as clean and uncluttered as possible.

[Hobs the Short]

Perchance to Dream wrote:

One aspect of magic use that I would love to see, though possibly hated by others, is the requirement for spell components. One of the most interesting aspects of a mage, for me, is the forward planning required in the choice of spells selected and their requirements based on the verbal, somantic and material components.

On one hand, material components are in keeping with the table top rules. Also, especially if components are farmed (literally or figuratively) by players, it creates a whole new marketable group of items for players to buy, sell, ship, etc. - and even more so if the components are used up with each casting (as they were in Ultima Online).

On the other hand, it causes spell casters to have to work considerably harder to play their role than others...comparatively, a sword won't run out any time soon and arrows will likely be far easier to craft and replenish. Especially if material components are one-shot use items, the poor mage might spend half their time just running about trying to replenish their component supply.

Again, from Ultima Online days, material components did randomly spawn in places, but only one at a time, so it was hardly a reliable source. For bulk components, you had to purchase them from NPC vendors. The problem was that each vendor only had a set number available, so it was very much a case of first come, first serve. Also, certain spells were most prized, so likewise with the material components for those spells. This led to some nasty cases of spell component monopolies, where certain groups (such as the United Pirates) would have their people buy up all the black pearl, then sell it at a higher rate. As you can imagine, this didn't set well with all the other casters.

[AvenaOats]

I may be making an impractical suggestion.

But I just want the information of combat available to me so I can make tactical decisions.

I'd prefer a UI schema to represent that info to me than flash stuff.

It would represent what my character is sensing.

It could be a sort of combat awareness skill-training thing that the more you skill-train the more info becomes available? And different "awareness" to different things to train even?

If the GFX are illustrative that is good enough for me to show our characters performing these actions.

But scanning info on others would be a very interesting skill to have and relay to friends maybe?

As said it might be a stupid idea, but do I have to really see a lot of sparkle magic effects to tell me what is going on with the numbers?

[Hobs the Short]

AvenaOats,

I would agree. I believe there is a table top equivalent that provides some chance for a caster (or anyone with the skill/feat/whatever they call it) to determine what spell is being cast. I think that would make a very snappy skill for even noncasters to learn and would remove the need to depend on the spell effect to identify the spell that's coming your way in the near future.

[Lhan]

+1 for the spell components (I'd taken them as a given). As for worrying about extra work for casters, if they ran out at approximately the same rate as a sword degraded in combat, it wouldn't be so bad. Remember also that there will be slotted spells and those that are the equivalent to cantrips that can be used over and over regardless by wanding. Perhaps the material components could apply only to the higher level slotted spells. If that's the case they should be significantly more powerful thatn a sword swing and would act as a brake on casters constantly nuking everything in sight and help with game balance.

Also in favour of less sparkle and fewer explosions - but it is magic we are talking about and it should have a little wow factor (no, not that WoW, the other wow) when something is cast. But yes, the fewer residual glowing effects the better IMHO.

[Hobs the Short]

On one hand, as I've said further up the thread, I see the point in having the visual effects, or at least spell itself, be identifiable. On the flip side, it might be interesting to pit one player's spell identification score vs. the caster's ability to masque what they're casting.

Again, we're (or at least I am) likely taking the intricacies of a given mechanic to depths of complexity far beyond what GW likely wants to deal with.

Back on the subject of material components, I agree Mr. Lhan, that cantrips should be easily fired off without the need of components. As for the more potent spells requiring components, I wonder how that would be handled by threading...? The warrior has one sword to thread. The archer has a bow and a quiver of arrows. Are those arrows counting as one stack in that quiver? If so, he's getting multiple attacks from that stack, but if a caster requires multiple stacks of components, again, he's getting a more raw deal in terms of what he'll likely have to replace if he dies, seeing as he likely won't thread all those separate stacks of components.

Just more to ponder.

[Lhan]

Hobs the Short wrote:

Back on the subject of material components, I agree Mr. Lhan, that cantrips should be easily fired off without the need of components. As for the more potent spells requiring components, I wonder how that would be handled by threading...? The warrior has one sword to thread. The archer has a bow and a quiver of arrows. Are those arrows counting as one stack in that quiver? If so, he's getting multiple attacks from that stack, but if a caster requires multiple stacks of components, again, he's getting a more raw deal in terms of what he'll likely have to replace if he dies, seeing as he likely won't thread all those separate stacks of components.

1 spell pouch to thread - all components safe inside it?

Oh and I like your idea of spellcraft being matched to identify what's coming. It would mean non casters would be much more confused by magic - which is as it should be.

[Hobs the Short]

ooo...that's getting into a gray area of a whole container counting as only one item for threading, regardless of how many items it contains. You could say there are miltiple arrows in that archer's quiver, but they are all the same item, thus the stack.

And if we're posting within one minute of each others, why aren't we talking on PFO Fan TS? :P

[Being]

Component requirements should work to make the use of powerful spells self balancing.

@Hobs: Some have more than one thing to be doing atm.

[Hobs the Short]

Being,

Did you really think I didn't already understand that he might be too busy to chat?

[Being]

I made no estimation of anyone but myself, my friend. I'm not in there because I must juggle.

[Jazzlvraz]

Hobs the Short wrote:

...why aren't we talking on PFO Fan TS?

So that those of us who can't be on Teamspeak can "listen in" on your discussion, ready to join in at any moment! ;-)

[Hobs the Short]

In that my comment was directed at Lhan, I understandably thought your comment was directed at me about and my original comment. Sorry for the crossed wires and your busy schedule. I'd love to chat with you as well. :)

[Being]

No worries. We had a toxic mold bloom in my home office and after remediation we are rebuilding it. I was essentially living and breathing the spores usually 16 hours a day for at least months (the window leak occurred years ago). This is while I rewrite for a publication copy of my novel consequent to receiving the first 200 pages back from the final editor. And I must go pick out my paints for walls and trim, select the shelving for my bookshelf in the converted closet. Since the drywall is finished and primed I'll paint this afternoon and evening so it will be dry before my contractor (an aspiring screenplay author, btw) returns Monday to install the trim and shelving. Then I will have to move my desk and all my stuff back in there once my cable modem is re-moved into my office. In fact I should go get it done.

[Lhan]

Sorry Hobs, watching the England - Argentina rugby international at the moment, and have only just seen your comment. And for what it's worth, I understand that you understand - do others understand I understood your understanding? :)

Will I hope be on TS later. Hope everyone's having a good day...

[Jazzlvraz]

Congratulations on today's result; the All Blacks should be exciting.