So while I think you can probably do a decent Magus with wizard/fighter multiclass and half-orcs can substitute in for orcs I think Skald is something which would be hard to replicate in the PF2 Core Rules. So Skald is my number one thing now.I believe one of the designers mentioned a multi-class Bard/Fighter being a good Skald.
You can make a fighting Bard but what you cannot make a raging bard. The core mechanics of compositions and rage do not play well together. It would work okay but encouraging other party members to accept the raging song was the funnest part of that class for me, just being a bard that is extra good at fighting is less interesting.
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Frankly, I always thought that the Skald's rage song was way too incompatible with vast swathes of party compositions. Folks'll probably be better off with just re-flavoring inspire courage as getting peeps pumped up and angry with sweet metal riffs.
You can make a fighting Bard but what you cannot make a raging bard. The core mechanics of compositions and rage do not play well together. It would work okay but encouraging other party members to accept the raging song was the funnest part of that class for me, just being a bard that is extra good at fighting is less interesting.So while I think you can probably do a decent Magus with wizard/fighter multiclass and half-orcs can substitute in for orcs I think Skald is something which would be hard to replicate in the PF2 Core Rules. So Skald is my number one thing now.I believe one of the designers mentioned a multi-class Bard/Fighter being a good Skald.
Yeah I believe this is how it's going to be at first. Until the proper class feats or archetypes or even the actual classes themselves(Skald, Brawler, Hunter, etc) are printed.
You might be able to get CLOSE to the play style with the swapping of abilities/feats but I don't think you'll get a full fledged hybrid class just yet.
Frankly, I always thought that the Skald's rage song was way too incompatible with vast swathes of party compositions. Folks'll probably better off with just re-flavoring inspire courage as getting pumped up and angry with sweet metal riffs.
True. But that moment when the spindly wizard accepts your song of rage into his heart and bites into his attacker is pretty dope. I felt it's incompatibility was part of it's charm but re-flavoring inspire courage is probably all that needs to happen really.
Yeah I believe this is how it's going to be at first. Until the proper class feats or archetypes or even the actual classes themselves(Skald, Brawler, Hunter, etc) are printed.
You might be able to get CLOSE to the play style with the swapping of abilities/feats but I don't think you'll get a full fledged hybrid class just yet.
Yes and that's why skald is at the top of my post CRB Wishlist. It probably doesn't need a full class though, maybe just an archetype or prestige archetype (or a multiclass prestige archetype?)
You can make a fighting Bard but what you cannot make a raging bard. The core mechanics of compositions and rage do not play well together. It would work okay but encouraging other party members to accept the raging song was the funnest part of that class for me, just being a bard that is extra good at fighting is less interesting.So while I think you can probably do a decent Magus with wizard/fighter multiclass and half-orcs can substitute in for orcs I think Skald is something which would be hard to replicate in the PF2 Core Rules. So Skald is my number one thing now.I believe one of the designers mentioned a multi-class Bard/Fighter being a good Skald.
Yet another teasing hint about multiclassing, it seems.
So wait... you think racial stat adjustments are bad, but you also think Ancestry doesn't have enough mechanical impact?
Yep. And despite what your question is implying, I don't think that's contradictory.
For quite a few reasons:
A) Take a look at how character creation and later stat ups happen. Having 0 to 2 of your 20 (or 21 with a flaw) stat ups be fixed because you chose one race over another has no meaning to me. It's a trivial aspect of what makes your character a character, and doesn't speak a thing to that characters background or experiences.
B) Doubly so, since several of the races have no fixed stat ups and aren't any less distinctive than their counterparts.
C) What it does is make those races with fixed stats less distinctive, and more a one dimensional stereotype. All 'elves are nimble and smart' is pretty terrible from a narrative standpoint.
D) It isn't a background or flavor tool. It's pretty unapologetically a min/max tool.
I think races should mean something mechanically (and speed/vision/random feat offers very little), but 'And Thou Must Be a Stereotype' is the worst possible way to try (and fail) to do it. It just makes the races feel like builds.
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It may not have been completely eliminated, but it is mathematically and undeniably being reduced. The former (PF2) allows you to play anything without a key stat penalty without shooting yourself in the foot. So you can play an effective sorcerer with any class without a charisma penalty, meaning the only bad choice is dwarf.
In PF1, you could only do that with a race that got a bonus to your key stat. Meaning anything other than elf, humans, and half humans was a bad choice for wizards, for example.
The PF2 solution encourages more variety of characters, and reduces bad options even if it doesn't eliminate them.
It's only reduced due to the fact we have a smaller race pool. That number of bad choices for Sorcerer will go up. See; Any Race with CHA penalty that sees print.
Without touching the merits of min maxing, this is just wrong. (I realize you don't have to do it, but this is a conversation about doing it.)
PF1 had 3 tiers of race/class combinations. Lets call them:
Tier 1: race either had a floating bonus or a bonus to your key stats.
Tier 2: Race has no bonus or penalty to key stats. The majority of races fall into this for any given class.
Tier 3: Penalty to a key stat.
By giving every ancestry a floating bonus, PF2 has basically collapsed tiers 1 and 2 into each other. This makes any ancestry without a penalty equally viable for any class. (Well, relatively. Secondary stats are still a thing and all, but are much less important usually.)
It doesn't matter how many ancestries are printed. As long as they follow the same model as the core most combinations will work great.
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And I'm really uncomfortable with 'ancestry' as a general concept- as soon as people start assigning int and wisdom adjustments to Varisians, Ulfen, etc, its going to be very bad, as most Golarion human groups are explicitly expies of real world groups. I'd much rather stick to fantasy races and avoid 'ancestry' altogether.
That is fundamentally not how ancestries work. Your ancestry would be e.g. Human, and all humans have the same basic stat adjustments. Being Chelish or Erutaki could potentially affect things like what heritage feat you might take, what weapons are common or uncommon for you, or what regionally focused options might be available to you, but you're not going to have different ability score adjustments for being Ulfen instead of Taldan.
It may not have been completely eliminated, but it is mathematically and undeniably being reduced. The former (PF2) allows you to play anything without a key stat penalty without shooting yourself in the foot. So you can play an effective sorcerer with any class without a charisma penalty, meaning the only bad choice is dwarf.
In PF1, you could only do that with a race that got a bonus to your key stat. Meaning anything other than elf, humans, and half humans was a bad choice for wizards, for example.
The PF2 solution encourages more variety of characters, and reduces bad options even if it doesn't eliminate them.
It's only reduced due to the fact we have a smaller race pool. That number of bad choices for Sorcerer will go up. See; Any Race with CHA penalty that sees print.
Without touching the merits of min maxing, this is just wrong. (I realize you don't have to do it, but this is a conversation about doing it.)
PF1 had 3 tiers of race/class combinations. Lets call them:
Tier 1: race either had a floating bonus or a bonus to your key stats.
Tier 2: Race has no bonus or penalty to key stats. The majority of races fall into this for any given class.
Tier 3: Penalty to a key stat.By giving every ancestry a floating bonus, PF2 has basically collapsed tiers 1 and 2 into each other. This makes any ancestry without a penalty equally viable for any class. (Well, relatively. Secondary stats are still a thing and all, but are much less important usually.)
It doesn't matter how many ancestries are printed. As long as they follow the same model as the core most combinations will work great.
Congrats, your Tier 2 got buffed to the point of Tier one, with Tier 3 not being touched at all.
Every race that has a INT penalty is still a bad wizard by this line of thinking. Side note, are Favored Class Bonuses back in for PF2? If so, that's still going to effect what races get picked for which classes.
I'd rather see all the races be allowed to play all the classes to a decent degree rather than just inverting the "this is what you CAN play as" number.
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It may not have been completely eliminated, but it is mathematically and undeniably being reduced. The former (PF2) allows you to play anything without a key stat penalty without shooting yourself in the foot. So you can play an effective sorcerer with any class without a charisma penalty, meaning the only bad choice is dwarf.
In PF1, you could only do that with a race that got a bonus to your key stat. Meaning anything other than elf, humans, and half humans was a bad choice for wizards, for example.
The PF2 solution encourages more variety of characters, and reduces bad options even if it doesn't eliminate them.
It's only reduced due to the fact we have a smaller race pool. That number of bad choices for Sorcerer will go up. See; Any Race with CHA penalty that sees print.
Without touching the merits of min maxing, this is just wrong. (I realize you don't have to do it, but this is a conversation about doing it.)
PF1 had 3 tiers of race/class combinations. Lets call them:
Tier 1: race either had a floating bonus or a bonus to your key stats.
Tier 2: Race has no bonus or penalty to key stats. The majority of races fall into this for any given class.
Tier 3: Penalty to a key stat.By giving every ancestry a floating bonus, PF2 has basically collapsed tiers 1 and 2 into each other. This makes any ancestry without a penalty equally viable for any class. (Well, relatively. Secondary stats are still a thing and all, but are much less important usually.)
It doesn't matter how many ancestries are printed. As long as they follow the same model as the core most combinations will work great.
Congrats, your Tier 2 got buffed to the point of Tier one, with Tier 3 not being touched at all.
Every race that has a INT penalty is still a bad wizard by this line of thinking. Side note, are Favored Class Bonuses back in for PF2? If so, that's still going to effect what races get picked for which...
Tier 3 got boosted to a tier 2 since you can put your free floating stat into you attribute deficiency. Also, the discrepancy in power between "min-maxed" and other characters shrinks under PF2E's increasing stats regime.
That said, I think the new critical and accuracy rules may make having an optimal attack stat more necessary.
...It may not have been completely eliminated, but it is mathematically and undeniably being reduced. The former (PF2) allows you to play anything without a key stat penalty without shooting yourself in the foot. So you can play an effective sorcerer with any class without a charisma penalty, meaning the only bad choice is dwarf.
In PF1, you could only do that with a race that got a bonus to your key stat. Meaning anything other than elf, humans, and half humans was a bad choice for wizards, for example.
The PF2 solution encourages more variety of characters, and reduces bad options even if it doesn't eliminate them.
It's only reduced due to the fact we have a smaller race pool. That number of bad choices for Sorcerer will go up. See; Any Race with CHA penalty that sees print.
Without touching the merits of min maxing, this is just wrong. (I realize you don't have to do it, but this is a conversation about doing it.)
PF1 had 3 tiers of race/class combinations. Lets call them:
Tier 1: race either had a floating bonus or a bonus to your key stats.
Tier 2: Race has no bonus or penalty to key stats. The majority of races fall into this for any given class.
Tier 3: Penalty to a key stat.By giving every ancestry a floating bonus, PF2 has basically collapsed tiers 1 and 2 into each other. This makes any ancestry without a penalty equally viable for any class. (Well, relatively. Secondary stats are still a thing and all, but are much less important usually.)
It doesn't matter how many ancestries are printed. As long as they follow the same model as the core most combinations will work great.
Congrats, your Tier 2 got buffed to the point of Tier one, with Tier 3 not being touched at all.
Every race that has a INT penalty is still a bad wizard by this line of thinking. Side note, are Favored Class Bonuses back in for PF2? If so, that's still going to effect
Okay hang on. I might have some info cross or old so let me ask for something and then look stupid now before looking stupid later.
With the new abilities, can you put that floating point into a stat your race already raises? Because that's the assumption I have been rolling with right now.
'Bad' is sort of relative. Sure the Dwarf Sorcerer caps out at 16 CHA (instead of 18). But unlike the PF1 Dwarf Sorcerer (who spent nearly all his 'points' for that 16), the PF2 versions stats will be fairly high in other areas, and develop faster.
The floating ability boost from ancestry can counter the flaw but cannot boost a stat to +4.
E.G. dwarf gets +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha and +2 to anything except Con or Wis
The floating ability boost from ancestry can counter the flaw but cannot boost a stat to +4.
E.G. dwarf gets +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha and +2 to anything except Con or Wis
Ah okay. So races can't power spike their Main stat with it. Okay, that changes a bit of my view on it.
'Bad' is sort of relative. Sure the Dwarf Sorcerer caps out at 16 CHA (instead of 18). But unlike the PF1 Dwarf Sorcerer (who spent nearly all his 'points' for that 16), the PF2 versions stats will be fairly high in other areas, and develop faster.
So you can't play a 12 Sorcerer? That's just completely unvaible. Espically with all the ways to buff it? "Oh but the other races would still be ahead of me", and my question to that is "so?".
But as for "Fairly high" do we know how point buy works? I thought it was just flat stats now. I really have to go look at the Ability score blog again.
So you can't play a 12 Sorcerer? That's just completely unvaible. Espically with all the ways to buff it? "Oh but the other races would still be ahead of me", and my question to that is "so?".
I think a Dwarf Sorcerer can get their CHA as low as 10 if they spend ALL of their floating increases elsewhere, and pick a background that doesn't increase it. Your 1st level class selection raises it's primary stat by 2 IIRC.
So you can't play a 12 Sorcerer? That's just completely unvaible. Espically with all the ways to buff it? "Oh but the other races would still be ahead of me", and my question to that is "so?".I think a Dwarf Sorcerer can get their CHA as low as 10 if they spend ALL of their floating increases elsewhere, and pick a background that doesn't increase it. Your 1st level class selection raises it's primary stat by 2 IIRC.
I meant for PF1, but eh.
I still think the 'best races' is still going to be a thing at the end of the day no matter what paizo does. But that's me and enough of me derailing the actual topic.
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I don't believe PF2E is going to have anything like a traditional point buy.
Your stats all start at 10 and then are modified in waves:
Race: 2 different increases or 3 increases with a penalty
Background: 2 different increases
Class: 1 increase
General Mods: you increase any 4 different stats
There are caveats in most of those steps but that is kind of the idea.
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Ability Score Generation in PF2
All stats start at 10
There are four steps each which grant boosts. all boosts are worth +2, no ability can get boosted twice in the same step.
STEP ONE: Ancestry
Most ancestries give a boost to two stats and a flaw (-2) to one stat. Additionally everyone gets one floating boost at this point.
STEP TWO: Background
Backgrounds provide one floating bonus and one other chosen from a set of two depending upon background.
STEP THREE: Class
Class grants a boost to the key ability score, some classes like fighter and monk get a choice between two ability score
STRP FOUR: Destiy
Choose four different stats and boost them.
EXAMPLE
Dwarsorc the Dwarven Sorcorrer
Ancestry: +2 Con +2 Wis -2 Cha Floating +2 cha
Background: Juggler +2 Dex Floating +2 Cha
Class: Sorcerer +2 Cha
Destiny: +2 Dex +2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 Cha
Final: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14 Cha 16
EDIT: ahh took to long ninja'd
Wait what the heck is Destiny and where has it be covered? I'll just take a link to keep the thread rolling
Starting at a 16 in PF2 really only puts you behind starting at an 18 until your first stat up (where you'll hit 18 and they'll go to 19) and after your 2nd (when they're at 20 and you're at 19), but you pull even again after your 3rd.
So it's not the end of world to have a 16 in your main stat I think.
Wait what the heck is Destiny and where has it be covered? I'll just take a link to keep the thread rollingHe's joking, it's not destiny but your level 1 stat boosts.
Yah its not called Destiny its just called level 1 stat boosts but if it was called Destiny than it would be ABCD which is appealing. It wasn't my idea to call it that I am just repeating the joke hoping it will stick.
Doesn't matter, A.B.C.D. is forever engrained now!
Ancestry, Background, Class, 'Destiny'
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Starting at a 16 in PF2 really only puts you behind starting at an 18 until your first stat up (where you'll hit 18 and they'll go to 19) and after your 2nd (when they're at 20 and you're at 19), but you pull even again after your 3rd.
So it's not the end of world to have a 16 in your main stat I think.
Mark mentioned this previously in the cleric thread, but there's also no longer a hard cap that you need a positive score equivalent to the spell level you want to cast like there is in PF1. So if you wanted to, for example, play a sorcerer who only took buff and polymorph spells (since the save DCs of anything that targets another creature would be abysmal), that's a viable option where you're actually running with a pretty minimal "primary" stat, and since there aren't bonus spells tied to high scores anymore, you're not giving up slots for that kind of build.
I haven't playtested the idea too much yet, but I've actually got a basic build for a 12 CHA buff and bash sorcerer that seems like it's going to be pretty darn effective. I've also been looking at 10-12 WIS cleric builds that focus on the warpriest style of play where all of their spells are pretty much being used on themselves so they can tear it up in melee. I kind of doubt that these will have as much direct offensive power as a fighter or ranger (except when they're burning their high level slots), especially if the caster is needing to cast some of the spells during the fight and giving up actions to buff, but they should have other benefits that make them equally effective contributors in their own right.
Wait what the heck is Destiny and where has it be covered? I'll just take a link to keep the thread rolling
Here is a link to the Twitch stream about character creation that goes over that ability score generation system a bit.
Starting at a 16 in PF2 really only puts you behind starting at an 18 until your first stat up (where you'll hit 18 and they'll go to 19) and after your 2nd (when they're at 20 and you're at 19), but you pull even again after your 3rd.
So it's not the end of world to have a 16 in your main stat I think.
Mark mentioned this previously in the cleric thread, but there's also no longer a hard cap that you need a positive score equivalent to the spell level you want to cast like there is in PF1. So if you wanted to, for example, play a sorcerer who only took buff and polymorph spells (since the save DCs of anything that targets another creature would be abysmal), that's a viable option where you're actually running with a pretty minimal "primary" stat, and since there aren't bonus spells tied to high scores anymore, you're not giving up slots for that kind of build.
I haven't playtested the idea too much yet, but I've actually got a basic build for a 12 CHA buff and bash sorcerer that seems like it's going to be pretty darn effective. I've also been looking at 10-12 WIS cleric builds that focus on the warpriest style of play where all of their spells are pretty much being used on themselves so they can tear it up in melee. I kind of doubt that these will have as much direct offensive power as a fighter or ranger (except when they're burning their high level slots), especially if the caster is needing to cast some of the spells during the fight and giving up actions to buff, but they should have other benefits that make them equally effective contributors in their own right.
Well, a low CHA mod would mean that you get fewer spell points and thank might kinda suck but maybe your fight Sorceror is too swole to care.
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Ah okay. So races can't power spike their Main stat with it. Okay, that changes a bit of my view on it.The floating ability boost from ancestry can counter the flaw but cannot boost a stat to +4.
E.G. dwarf gets +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha and +2 to anything except Con or Wis
Glad that was cleared up. I assumed everyone was aware of this already, so I was very confused why I wasn't being understood.
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I'd like to see classes that need specific mechanical attention make it in as soon as possible. Getting kineticist late in the game's life cycle meant it had very little support from the rest of the game. So witch, oracle, kineticist, two psychic classes and magus should be good early additions.
I'd also like to see some non humanoid player races make it in sooner rather than later. Honestly I'd hoped one would make it into the basic book in order to avoid the humanoid assumption that played hell with rules interpretations throughout PF1.
Glad that was cleared up. I assumed everyone was aware of this already, so I was very confused why I wasn't being understood.Ah okay. So races can't power spike their Main stat with it. Okay, that changes a bit of my view on it.The floating ability boost from ancestry can counter the flaw but cannot boost a stat to +4.
E.G. dwarf gets +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha and +2 to anything except Con or Wis
I'm someone that needs things to be kept tracked off or grouped for decent reference. I do not do well when I need to go back to 1-2 different blogs to find answers to things.
Seriously, I'm a guy that needs to say someone's name about 5-10 times before it sticks. So working with old info tends to be my stick.
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I feel yah there I've been trying to stay on top of it but blogs, forum posts, podcasts, twitch streams, YouTube videos from Paizocon... It's starting to become a lot. Luckily in about two weeks there should be a nice PDF that compiles all the new rules in one place.
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I want Divine champions that embrace their alignment, in addition to those we will get in the CRB where there will be at least Paladin I think
Starting at a 16 in PF2 really only puts you behind starting at an 18 until your first stat up (where you'll hit 18 and they'll go to 19) and after your 2nd (when they're at 20 and you're at 19), but you pull even again after your 3rd.
So it's not the end of world to have a 16 in your main stat I think.
Mark mentioned this previously in the cleric thread, but there's also no longer a hard cap that you need a positive score equivalent to the spell level you want to cast like there is in PF1. So if you wanted to, for example, play a sorcerer who only took buff and polymorph spells (since the save DCs of anything that targets another creature would be abysmal), that's a viable option where you're actually running with a pretty minimal "primary" stat, and since there aren't bonus spells tied to high scores anymore, you're not giving up slots for that kind of build.
I haven't playtested the idea too much yet, but I've actually got a basic build for a 12 CHA buff and bash sorcerer that seems like it's going to be pretty darn effective. I've also been looking at 10-12 WIS cleric builds that focus on the warpriest style of play where all of their spells are pretty much being used on themselves so they can tear it up in melee. I kind of doubt that these will have as much direct offensive power as a fighter or ranger (except when they're burning their high level slots), especially if the caster is needing to cast some of the spells during the fight and giving up actions to buff, but they should have other benefits that make them equally effective contributors in their own right.
Some combat medic ability that allows them to heal while still being strong frontliners ? Maybe similar to the Life Oracle's Life Link revelation in PF1
I want Divine champions that embrace their alignment, in addition to those we will get in the CRB where there will be at least Paladin I think
Some combat medic ability that allows them to heal while still being strong frontliners ? Maybe similar to the Life Oracle's Life Link revelation in PF1Starting at a 16 in PF2 really only puts you behind starting at an 18 until your first stat up (where you'll hit 18 and they'll go to 19) and after your 2nd (when they're at 20 and you're at 19), but you pull even again after your 3rd.
So it's not the end of world to have a 16 in your main stat I think.
Mark mentioned this previously in the cleric thread, but there's also no longer a hard cap that you need a positive score equivalent to the spell level you want to cast like there is in PF1. So if you wanted to, for example, play a sorcerer who only took buff and polymorph spells (since the save DCs of anything that targets another creature would be abysmal), that's a viable option where you're actually running with a pretty minimal "primary" stat, and since there aren't bonus spells tied to high scores anymore, you're not giving up slots for that kind of build.
I haven't playtested the idea too much yet, but I've actually got a basic build for a 12 CHA buff and bash sorcerer that seems like it's going to be pretty darn effective. I've also been looking at 10-12 WIS cleric builds that focus on the warpriest style of play where all of their spells are pretty much being used on themselves so they can tear it up in melee. I kind of doubt that these will have as much direct offensive power as a fighter or ranger (except when they're burning their high level slots), especially if the caster is needing to cast some of the spells during the fight and giving up actions to buff, but they should have other benefits that make them equally effective contributors in their own right.
I'll just take something like Healer's Hands. Any small amount of healing though skills/checks/items so I don't have to dip into magic.
If only so I can finally get around to playing "The All Fighters Party". Though Gunslinger also sounds fun as a side couple one shots.
I'll just take something like Healer's Hands. Any small amount of healing though skills/checks/items so I don't have to dip into magic.
If only so I can finally get around to playing "The All Fighters Party". Though Gunslinger also sounds fun as a side couple one shots.
An all-X party actually seems like an interesting stress test of the archetype system. Since, at least from the one we've seen, archetypes give a couple signature skills (some contingent on later feats), and some pseudo-class-feats (boarding action as related to sudden charge, for example), it makes me wonder just how much you could do with that. Like, an archaeologist archetype could get you roguish skills, and maybe something similar to a bardic lore muse feat, or an archivist that gets you some of the magical skills, and some spell point casting.
At least, based on the pirate archetype, I'd say these would have to push the envelope a little more than what we've seen, but I'm alright with a little envelope pushing, especially in a playtest version.
As an aside Here is where I got the term Destany for the 1st level stat boost. As far as I know it was Castilliano's idea.
Yeah I vaguely remember that post now!
I like the 'ABCDE' system. It feels structured enough to easily teach new players. Teaching being something that's hard for me historically.
Beyond ABC, I would include all of the remaining floating character decisions in the Destiny/Determination Step, so Ranks, Feats mostly.
Finally E is for Equipment. Now that you know evwrything else you buy stuff.
I know most of us will still bounce around, working through characters using 'CABDE' instead.
I'll just take something like Healer's Hands. Any small amount of healing though skills/checks/items so I don't have to dip into magic.
If only so I can finally get around to playing "The All Fighters Party". Though Gunslinger also sounds fun as a side couple one shots.
An all-X party actually seems like an interesting stress test of the archetype system. Since, at least from the one we've seen, archetypes give a couple signature skills (some contingent on later feats), and some pseudo-class-feats (boarding action as related to sudden charge, for example), it makes me wonder just how much you could do with that. Like, an archaeologist archetype could get you roguish skills, and maybe something similar to a bardic lore muse feat, or an archivist that gets you some of the magical skills, and some spell point casting.
At least, based on the pirate archetype, I'd say these would have to push the envelope a little more than what we've seen, but I'm alright with a little envelope pushing, especially in a playtest version.
Sorcerers and rogues I think would make especially good all X party members.
Sorcerers and rogues I think would make especially good all X party members.I'll just take something like Healer's Hands. Any small amount of healing though skills/checks/items so I don't have to dip into magic.
If only so I can finally get around to playing "The All Fighters Party". Though Gunslinger also sounds fun as a side couple one shots.
An all-X party actually seems like an interesting stress test of the archetype system. Since, at least from the one we've seen, archetypes give a couple signature skills (some contingent on later feats), and some pseudo-class-feats (boarding action as related to sudden charge, for example), it makes me wonder just how much you could do with that. Like, an archaeologist archetype could get you roguish skills, and maybe something similar to a bardic lore muse feat, or an archivist that gets you some of the magical skills, and some spell point casting.
At least, based on the pirate archetype, I'd say these would have to push the envelope a little more than what we've seen, but I'm alright with a little envelope pushing, especially in a playtest version.
All Rogue Skull and Shackles, let's go!
Yeah I vaguely remember that post now!
I like the 'ABCDE' system. It feels structured enough to easily teach new players. Teaching being something that's hard for me historically.Beyond ABC, I would include all of the remaining floating character decisions in the Destiny/Determination Step, so Ranks, Feats mostly.
Finally E is for Equipment. Now that you know evwrything else you buy stuff.
I know most of us will still bounce around, working through characters using 'CABDE' instead.
While it isn't quite the order most make characters in, if we are adding equipment to the list I think it should be:
Ancestry
Background
Class
Destiny/development
Equipment
Feats
Putting feats at the end is also good because it isn't clear if every class gets a class feat at level 1.
Edit: though determination is used for archetypes right? So maybe that gets included. Unless of course you can't take them at level 1 anyway.
While it isn't quite the order most make characters in, if we are adding equipment to the list I think it should be:
Ancestry
Background
Class
Destiny/development
Equipment
FeatsPutting feats at the end is also good because it isn't clear if every class gets a class feat at level 1.
Edit: though determination is used for archetypes right? So maybe that gets included. Unless of course you can't take them at level 1 anyway.
That does maintain the alphabetical system, but I folded feat selection and skill rank distribution into D because I am unsure if 1st level characters will always have a feat to select, and I hate 'skipping a step'. Selecting spells, bloodlines, etcetera should be done during C.
Archetypes are Class Feats, so they're chosen whenever in the process you get a class feat (if at all)
That does maintain the alphabetical system, but I folded feat selection and skill rank distribution into D because I am unsure if 1st level characters will always have a feat to select, and I hate 'skipping a step'. Selecting spells, bloodlines, etcetera should be done during C.While it isn't quite the order most make characters in, if we are adding equipment to the list I think it should be:
Ancestry
Background
Class
Destiny/development
Equipment
FeatsPutting feats at the end is also good because it isn't clear if every class gets a class feat at level 1.
Edit: though determination is used for archetypes right? So maybe that gets included. Unless of course you can't take them at level 1 anyway.
That's why I like feats at the end. That way you aren't skipping a step, you are just finishing a little sooner. ;)
Not much to add, but I want Advanced Ancesteries ASAP.
Also, I think Voss was on to something on their initial reply. There could be a dozen or two vaguely general ancestry feats, less powerful than the proper ones we'll get in core but not terribly so, and every ancestry can access a selection of them. New ancestries they don't want to print a full splat for can simply get access to 8 of these, which would get some races out VERY fast and not accidentally cause a niche ancestry to be overpowered.
For a full ancestry write-up, I could use an ancestry specific archetype, or even prestige archetype.
I do want an Ultimate Class book that puts as many PF1 classes into PF2 as soon as possible, be that via a full class, an archetype, or even a feat or two (looking at you, Magus). But that can wait a couple years. Let's let the meta settle before tripling the number of core classes.
Ancesty
Background
Class
Destiny
Electives (skills...)
Features and feats
Gear Up
Head out!
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Ancesty
Background
Class
Destiny
Electives (skills...)
Features and feats
Gear Up
Head out!
Incur debt
Join caravanKill everyone
Loot bodies
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Ancesty
Background
Class
Destiny
Electives (skills...)
Features and feats
Gear Up
Head out!Incur debt
Join caravan
Kill everyone
Loot bodies
Make a name for yourself
Never give upOverthrow governments
Pillage
Quit your evil ways
Redeem yourself
Save the kingdom
Travel to distant lands
Undertake a great quest
Venture forth to stand against the elder God's
Win the day
Xa'ligha drove you mad
Yell in the confines of your cell
...ziptie everything
Ancesty
Background
Class
Destiny
Electives (skills...)
Features and feats
Gear Up
Head out!Incur debt
Join caravan
Kill everyone
Loot bodies
Make a name for yourself
Never give up
Overthrow governments
Pillage
Quit your evil ways
Redeem yourself
Save the kingdom
Travel to distant lands
Undertake a great quest
Venture forth to stand against the elder God's
Win the day
Xa'ligha drove you mad
Yell in the confines of your cell
...ziptie everything
This is like reading my own game, except they did it all in the wrong order and rolled M, N, O, P, Q, R, S into like. The span of four sessions.
Ancesty
Background
Class
Destiny
Electives (skills...)
Features and feats
Gear Up
Head out!Incur debt
Join caravan
Kill everyone
Loot bodies
Make a name for yourself
Never give up
Overthrow governments
Pillage
Quit your evil ways
Redeem yourself
Save the kingdom
Travel to distant lands
Undertake a great quest
Venture forth to stand against the elder God's
Win the day
Xa'ligha drove you mad
Yell in the confines of your cell
...ziptie everything
I think I prefer to end with "Zapped [or Zotted] by the gods" to provide a reason for the cycle to begin anew.
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I do want an Ultimate Class book that puts as many PF1 classes into PF2 as soon as possible, be that via a full class, an archetype, or even a feat or two (looking at you, Magus). But that can wait a couple years. Let's let the meta settle before tripling the number of core classes.
I agree. Magus is a weird thing where I really like the class, but would honestly prefer it as an archetype so I could magus on whatever I felt needed it.