Making an intentionally impossible boss battle


Advice


Hey everyone. I'm currently DMing for a group that is convinced they're ready to take on the Big Bad of this campaign in spite of being lvl 12ish. So how could I make it a kinda story driven failure without literally having them all die. Similar to how some video games will have no chance of ever beating a specific boss in order to drive some sort of plot hook. I'm having a little trouble not being a jerk about it. Lol. Thanks in advance.

Silver Crusade

This really kind of depends on your story. What was the big bad trying to achieve and who is he/she/it? What resources are at the disposal of the BBEG?

I think the crux of this though is having the BBEG be far, FAR more powerful than what the party initially expected, and having the encounter happen when they don't expect it.

What you could try is a combination of the following:

-Something is in place, perhaps a majorly powerful artefact, that makes him almost impossible to beat without the PC's first taking countermeasures to this circumstance. BBEG is so powerful due to this circumstance that BBEG thinks BBEG is invincible, so out of arrgoance BBEG allows the PC's to run away after flaunting BBEG's power.

-The PC's arrive too late to stop him, or he (gonna refer to BBEG as a he for simplicity) launches a surprise attack on where he thinkgs the pc's are. The entirety of the surrounding area is destroyed by BBEG's power (like, a continuous meteor swarm/exploding volcano type of effect) and if they do not focus on running away, possibly taking some valuable allies with them before the entire area is destroyed, they are toast.


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One of the key problems here is that players are trained to think that anything in front of them can be beaten. As such, a "losing battle" might just seem like "a tough battle that we can beat if we just hit it hard enough" (honestly- the latter opinion can often be right if they have good rolls).

This brings up a problem- a power level that is VERY obviously too high is also a power level that can wreck the party- either instantly killing them or at least crippling enough members to make escape impossible (3 passed out people and 1 person to carry them).

As such, you need to make it abundantly clear that this is a 'you really need to run' situation. Of course... most subtle methods of doing this also fall under the 'this is a tough fight BUT...' category. Example- you have a powerful NPC hold the boss back, sacrificing himself and telling the party to run. In the party's mind, they just think 'oh, we have a powerful NPC helping us. We can use that to beat this boss' (it doesn't help that the 'heroic' answer in that situation is to help the guy sacrificing himself).

You might need something that forces the party to push ahead, despite their instincts. For example- the boss is the distraction, and he is sending minions around back to steal the macguffin. The sacrifing NPC holds the boss back, and the party has to accept that because they need to follow the plot. (this could be effective in telling you the power level via worf effect if the party has fought beside the NPC before and knows he is much stronger than they are).


I mean, a lot of this depends on what resources your BBEG has available, what class they are, etc. If s/he is a level 20 wizard this is easy. Jack the DC on a persistent mass hold person high enough that they are almost guaranteed to fail. Then while they are all held in place for 2 minutes the BBEG monologues about their vision of the future, how the PCs are inconsequential, maybe even that he'd kill them but they are inadvertently furthering his/her goals.

If the boss is a rogue or something without access to auto win spells, perhaps have the BBEG lure the PCs into a trap. Something with a ton of greater dispel magic traps, a few pits, as well overwhelming number of minions with nets, tanglefoot bags, and the ability to disrupt spellcasting.

Silver Crusade

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I'm going to suggest something a little different. Let the PCs fight him and win, barely, after a long, hard battle where he has counters to standard tactics of the PCs. And then, when they finally beat him, he melts into a puddle of water, revealing he was a simulacrum, and as such about half the strength of the real thing.


Val'bryn2 wrote:
I'm going to suggest something a little different. Let the PCs fight him and win, barely, after a long, hard battle where he has counters to standard tactics of the PCs. And then, when they finally beat him, he melts into a puddle of water, revealing he was a simulacrum, and as such about half the strength of the real thing.

Sadly, while a cop out, that is probably the correct answer. The instinct to hit their head against the rock is near impossible to overcome... but at least this foam rock won't make their head bleed.

Silver Crusade

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It really isn't much of a copout. A hallmark of high level wizards is their arrogance. Only they can solve these issues, they are poor delegators. So, naturally, they turn to the only person who can be trusted to handle things: himself.


All of these are awesome ideas guys. The BBEG already made an appearance of course, and I just made something vague about him holding everyone in place so they couldn't even move. Similar to Leitner's Mass Hold idea. But since my PC's are considerably higher levels since BBEG's first appearance I was going to at least let my PC's have a little more of a fighting chance.
lemeres, I like the sacrifice idea. Our last session everyone wanted to play with the Deck of Many Things and the one tank got thrown in jail. I was thinking BBEG could also make an appearance there as they're trying to make their escape.
Val'bryn2, knowing my friends, something like that would just get them excited and try to fight the REAL BBEG immediately. Lol.


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A Simulacrum is a good example, but kind of gives away what the final boss is, exactly. If he turns out to be a high level Wizard, they can anticipate and prepare for an even tougher fight. That's kind of an anticlimax.

What I like is Trevor's option: give him plot immunity due to a MacGuffin, like a Lich's phylactery or something. The BBEG knows he can't be harmed, and toys with them. Something like incredible fast healing, tough DR, or some kind of shield or whatever should convey to the players that they need to get around that.

I have a few more ideas:
- The BBEG might be interested in the PCs. He captures anyone he hasn't outright killed. He casts Raise Dead on the killed ones (they don't know who's raising them, so they probably assume it's their teammates), and throws them in jail. Now part of the storyline becomes escaping from that jail, living with those negative levels for a while, and planning a new attack. They have knowledge of how powerful he is, so they'll know how much more they'll need to train.
- Scare the bejesus out of them with debilitating, but not necessarily damaging effects. There's probably at least one person in your party that has a good Spellcraft. If the BBEG is a Wizard or something, throw a ninth-level spell at them. They'll identify it, see that it's way above their capabilities, and hopefully escape. Or let him wreak havoc in the background. Have the BBEG come out somewhere, level a city block with Meteor Swarm, and you basically have the same outcome.
- Have them fight a second-in-command, a pet, or whatever, that's obviously lower in rank than the BBEG, but still above their pay grade (like, 4 or 5 CR above their level or something). If they can barely handle that, how are they gonna defeat its boss?
- Or, maybe, just let them fight him. Not every campaign needs to end at level 20. If they wanna fight the end boss, and they feel like they deserved it, make the boss a few levels lower than expected. You can keep artificially throwing hoops at them to make them jump through, but if they want to fight the boss, why not? Sure, it might not have been the ending you wanted it to be, but if the players think it's time to end him, it's time to end him. Just make it seem plausible. Like you hyped up how his four mythic guardians need defeating, but suddenly his guardians are gone, for example.


Quentin Coldwater wrote:
The BBEG might be interested in the PCs. He captures anyone he hasn't outright killed. He casts Raise Dead on the killed ones (they don't know who's raising them, so they probably assume it's their teammates),

Unfortunately that is not the case.

Revivification against One's Will: A soul can't be returned to life if it doesn't wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis.

Fortunately, it sounds to me like the players are the type to accept revivification from anybody.


Bah, I read the spell description of Raise Dead and thought that was all, apparently I missed some text elsewhere. Thanks for the correction!

EDIT: Still though, the BBEG doesn't necessarily have to do it himself. He can obviously have a henchman Cleric in his following that can cast it for him. "Steve, Chaotic Neutral Cleric of Gorum" sounds a lot better than "Grothdarr, Chaotic Evil Destroyer of Worlds," even if you've never met Steve.


In the vein of a BBEG you can fight but not trivially defeat, checkout Strahd from the recent 5e game. I'd also suggest a Denizen of Leng for a good recurring BBEG.


Ohh, I just had an idea: what about a combination of my previous ideas? Let the party fight a level 12-appropriate final bossfight, make it epic, boss goes down. Party thinks they've won, they go on vacation, but after a while they notice BBEG's plan is still in motion. They do some research and they find out he's been resurrected (or something), making him even stronger (slap a nasty template on him or something, or maybe several). Then they have to defeat his final form. It's a bit of a DBZ "this isn't even my final form!" cheese, but I think it could work.

Or like, he's a BBEG. He has contingencies. A once per day "get out of jail free card." (he teleports away to a different castle and is restored to full power or something) They either have to beat that trump card first, or fight him twice in the same day, but hopefully the party will have expended their most powerful spells. And the BBEG knows they're coming for him now, throwing more flunkies their way. That makes for an uphill battle, but a climactic one, I feel. Once they realise they can't wade through all those mooks in one day, they'll have to level up to be more efficient.


Is the BBEG that easy to get to? They could have guards, traps, etc that slow the players down... eventually they either run out of resources and can't go on or they're in a fight that's too difficult, the bud guys knock them out and they wake up in a dungeon or something that they have to escape from. (And have hopefully learned that they're not ready for the end fight yet.)

Bad guys don't need to always be fatal. (Depending on the bad guy, of course.)


Honestly, the BBEG i just made up on the fly. I was planning on reskinning a pretty tough demon or something. I explained that he is gaining power by absorbing souls but he is new to this current dimension so he's still out there on the front lines absorbing souls personally. I described him and his baddies as a cross between Dread Wraiths and Dementors from Harry Potter. Lol.


You can throw allies into the fight that they would recognize. It's hard to know the BBEG level 20 wizard is unbeatable, but when you see THREE ELDER WYRMS beside that same wizard, you either quickly realize your situation or deserve to die.


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Shiroi wrote:
You can throw allies into the fight that they would recognize. It's hard to know the BBEG level 20 wizard is unbeatable, but when you see THREE ELDER WYRMS beside that same wizard, you either quickly realize your situation or deserve to die.

You could also go with a setting where the villain has a posse of powerful body guards...And the party meets a single example of the guards that they can barely beat.

If party fights against one dragon and barely survives in a 1 vs party situation, and then they see the boss walking around with three of them... That should send a message.

This is the "4 heavenly kings" style route- make the party understand that they only just faced the weakest of the lieutenants, and make sure that the boss is always around the other lieutenants when they have a chance to see them.

At the very least, that might encourage the party to try to sneak around and take out the lieutenants one at a time so no one is defending the boss. Which might take long enough for you to complete the growth curve that you had planned out as the GM.

Dark Archive

Shiroi wrote:
You can throw allies into the fight that they would recognize. It's hard to know the BBEG level 20 wizard is unbeatable, but when you see THREE ELDER WYRMS beside that same wizard, you either quickly realize your situation or deserve to die.

That, or they find the corpse of a Solar. That should make them reconsider their options.


Have them fight one of his cohorts and make it clear that the cohort is significantly weaker than the BBEG. Have the cohort be powerful enough to give the Pc's a really difficult time.


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If you don't want it dead, don't have it fight the pc's, period. No plan survives contact with the pcs.

Ghost_King141 wrote:
Honestly, the BBEG i just made up on the fly. I was planning on reskinning a pretty tough demon or something. I explained that he is gaining power by absorbing souls but he is new to this current dimension so he's still out there on the front lines absorbing souls personally. I described him and his baddies as a cross between Dread Wraiths and Dementors from Harry Potter. Lol.

Since isn't even created yet you can give the baddie a simulacrum or clone or rejuvenate power. Go to the CR you want, pick a monster you want to reskin and swap out an appropriate leveled power for something that makes him difficult to perma-kill.


Have a high level ally of the PCs, someone who bested them in a single move and is looked up to greatly, get absolutely trashed in a one on one.

Dark Archive

Might I suggest another angle? As you wanted to reskin a powerful demon as the final BBEG, how about a big bad that wants to get destroyed?

Hear me out: a long time ago, a powerful demon had an evil plan, and a group of powerful heroes had gathered to defeat him. After a long and grueling battle, the heroes used a last resort; they sealed the demon away into one of their own. A powerful lvl 20 Wizard with the immortality discovery was going to be the prison, and he had himself be Geas/Quest'ed so he could never do himself harm nor allow himself to remain passive if attacked (just to be sure). This Wizard then went into a self-imposed exile, just to keep the demon locked away forever.

But fate had a different plan. Although sealed, the demon was not unaware of its surroundings and quietly waited for a moment of weakness. And when that moment came, it took possession of the Wizards body and in turn sealed the Wizards soul away. Due to incompatibilities between body and soul, the "Demon-Wizard" had gained several negative levels (which can only be healed by regaining his original body by offing the current "host"). Eager to have its own powerful body back, it tried to kill its wizards body, only to be stopped by the Geas/Quest. When trying to get others to kill him, he incinerated them. The Demon had a problem.

Incapable of killing his prison-body off, he needed the help of others. So what better way than to aggravate some heroes? Do some dastardly deeds here and there, and eventually a little band will form. Nurture their skills by tossing some "training"flunkies their way until they can stand a chance against your "prison", and then let them come "slay" you. And at the end of a great battle, the tired heroes will finish off their hated foe, only to allow a greater evil to walk the world once more (cue CR 20+ Evil Outsider suddenly spawning, do some incapacitating supermagic/plotpower, and teleport out to destroy the world at it's leisure).

P.S. I have not read the Geas/Quest spell that well, but you are the GM. If the spell doesn't work that way, you can make up some sort of powerspell that can.


the BBEG swaps places with a bodyguard and plays dead early into the fight with a high perform skill, party moves on and fights his highly skilled double and barely wins, then notice a beard and wig, and in dramatic reveal, stands in the door way, trips a lever and seals them into their doom, should the depleted party manage to get out they still catch him and beat him down, only for him to laugh and shed all wounds off for the big reveal that they had their chance to run, turning into an ancient dragon/demon hybrid that can only be truly harmed by +5 or good weapons, with clerical magic focus and a few heal spells for self...


How do players lose a battle? I think it most often comes down to: They got surprised or disabled. As long as they are able to plot and act, they have a good chance to figure out how to beat even "impossible" odds.

So, whatever you do, keep the powers of the BBEG mostly a secret. Maybe reveal one or two things, so they think they know what to expect - then engage them with something completely different. Make sure the powers are not about raw damage or direct kills, but rather about neutralizing them without permanent harm:

Blinded
Frightened
Nauseated
Paralyzed
Petrified
Stunned
Asleep
Nonlethal damage
...

It needs to be something that really takes them out of the battle, so there is no risk they engage the BBEG despite a hefty debuff (exhausted, sickened, magically aged etc.) and die due to it.


Now, this could just be me, since I seem to have a habit of going "It's taking damage, so we can win this" (including one video game where the boss flinches and you're supposed to use another type of attack at that point to actually deal damage and I had missed that part and assumed it was working due to a lack of health bars and another where I only caught on because the fast healing was still occurring in an attack that was otherwise instant despite multiple hits), but to me the best option is to have a fight (possibly at reduced power) that ends before the boss is out of the picture. The BBEG is aware the party is against them, fights them casually and sloppily, and teleports out when their hp hits half (or teleports out his corpse if resurrection is readily available). Next time, the PCs are treated as a legitimate threat with all that entails.


Beat them down and throw them into the BBEG's jail, only for them to do a heroic escape.

Standard RPG fair.


A few links regarding encounter design and various levers that drastically affect difficulty.

A 12th-level party (I'm assuming 4 PCs) has access to 6th-level magic and possibly quite potent options already - it is no surprise that they consider themselves powerful enough to challenge a BOSS.

However, there are a few *difficulty spikes* as you progress in Pathfinder...here is a short overview:

1-4th:
Food/Shelter/Sleep/climate, Poison/Disease/Curses, Difficult Terrain and terrain-based obstacles (A broken bridge over a raging river, a mountain to climb to reach the castle of DOOM) are still relevant.
Flying enemies have a huge advantage.
DEATH requires the aid of NPCs to recover from.

5th-8th:
Flight, various powerful buffs/debuffs/spells become available. Martial characters deal vastly more damage with a Full-attack.
Large & bigger enemies are more prevalent than before.

Death & many other statuses can be cured, Food/shelter/sleep/climate cease to matter as problem, terrain-based obstacles (apart from under-water-things) no longer provide a serious challenge.

9th-12th:
Freedom of Movement is an incredible buff available.

Plane Shift, Planar Ally/Planar Binding, Scry & Teleport become available and both vastly expand the horizon / effective operating range of your party, their options and their ability to acquire information.

Simple mysteries can be solved easily with divination, travel time matters much, much less, and planar traits start to matter. This is the stage where you can reliably expect to face interplanar opposition and enter the big stage.

This means Scry-&-Fry tactics become available.

13th-16th:
True seeing solves many illusion-based challenges, Mind Blank is a powerful defensive buff, Control Weather offers a large-scale manipulation of the environment, Antimagic Field & Create Demiplane allow for radical reshaping of the battlefield.

Greater Teleport & Greater Scrying allow for more precise information / travel leading to Scry and Die-tactics, Simulacrum increases agency, Greater Curse Terrain also massively reshapes the environment.

This "stage" of difficulty / power isn't very different from 9th-12th, except that the players have more and better tools to act, rather than the rudimentary options they had before.

17th-20th:
The Endgame. With 9th-level spells such as Wish & Miracle, the limits of reality are shattered even further; Timestop, Shapechange, True Resurrection / Mass Heal, Interplanetary Teleport, Mage's Disjunction, Communal Mindblank, Gate...

Mythic:
The Post-Endgame. Now you enter the realm of the (demi-)gods; Wish can be cast as immediate action, Timestop lasts for 24 hours, you recover from status effects, including death, with incredible ease, you laugh at the previous limits of action economy and can recover your spell slots/class abilities extremely fast.

Only an extremely convoluted PLOT can slow you down, but there is no more stopping you.

=============================================================

After this brief sketch of the various "stages" of Pathfinder, you should demonstrate why the BBEG *is* the BBEG, simply by letting him show that he plays one or two "stages" above the PCs.

How to design such a boss battle:

1) Have them face an "actor" that pretends to be the BBEG while the actual BBEG is doing more important work - a senior, trusted lieutenant at least, if not the right-hand-man of the BBEG.

This scales down the CR and allows for an interesting fight the players might even win - with the dramatic reveal of the mistaken identity at the end.

2) Create a proper environment that limits the player options (use any/all methods from "The 9 Classical Ways to make PF combat hard") and have the BBEG escape via Contingency.

3) Have them fight a Simulacrum (or several) of the BBEG. This may be extremely challenging, so if they realize they fought him at half strength, maybe they wise up to his true power.

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