Hello everyone, new player/forum user here, first of all I would like to mention that I am not a native english speaker so please ignore my grammar.
So, as I mentioned before I am a new player and we have a group of friends who play online, this is our first pathfinder campaign and I would like to ask for help. We have one member who already played pathfinder a couple of times so we built a party according to his suggestions. We needed a tank, so I chose a fighter, mutation warrior archetype. I am a human, wearing full plate (heavy armor), a heavy shield and I am using a longsword. I am level 8 (no multiclassing allowed so far, DM is also new to pathfinder, we wanted to keep it simple, so all 8 levels are in mutation warrior), my feat choices so far are:
lvl 1 Power Attack, Shield Focus
lvl 2 Dodge
lvl 3 Weapon Focus
lvl 4 Weapon Specialization
lvl 5 Iron Will, Weapont Training
lvl 6 Disruptive
lvl 7 Following Step, Preserve Organs (mutation warrior)
lvl 8 Step Up-and-Strike
For next levels I would like to take:
lvl 9 Weapon Focus, Greater, Armed Bravery (Ex)
lvl 10 Combat Reflexes
lvl 11 Critical Focus and a weapon with Keen
lvl 12 Weapon Spec, Greater, replaces dodge, Stand Still
lvl 13 Penetrating Strike, Combat Maneuver Defense(EX)
lvl 14 Spellbreaker
lvl 15 Missile Shield
lvl 16 Critical, Staggering Combat
lvl 17 Critical, Stunning, Defensive Weapon Training
lvl 18 Teleport Tactician
lvl 19 Ray Shield
lvl 20 Penetrating Strike, Greater
Now, the reason I am asking for advice is because I haven't really found anything like this build on the internet, probably because this build is extremely suboptimal.
I cannot really change what I've taken up until now but anything after and including lvl 9 is subject to change, please anyone who's experienced enough to tell me what's wrong with my build and how can I improve it help me.
Generally speaking, the 'tank' role doesn't really translate well to Pathfinder because their isn't any way to force the enemies to concentrate you.
My guess is that you are finding that while you don't take much damage, you don't deal a lot of damage either and therefore aren't really all that effective.
Obvious thing that you are missing is Power Attack, generally considered a must-have feat for a full BAB melee combatant. It also seems to me you are missing the 'Step Up' feat, which you need ofr Following Step and Step Up and Strike.
I'm also guessing that your idea was to get close to caster characters and lock them down, but you are having issues with movement to do that, since I don't see anything that gives you more that the 20' of movement you would have from wearing plate. Magic Items and/or coordination with teammates can help with that.
I would also look at the Item Mastery feats, in particular Flight Mastery might benefit you greatly as far as mobility is concerned.
Hi Dave Justus, thanks for your answer
Dave Justus wrote: Generally speaking, the 'tank' role doesn't really translate well to Pathfinder because there isn't any way to force the enemies to concentrate you.
I don't really know how other DMs manage this, but when we are fighting beasts or other not particularly "smart" enemies our DM allows me to tank them, because they are too "dumb" to attack my backline (I'm always ahead of my party), ofc few enemies still go past me but we are trying to fight in very narrow places where I can force them to focus on me. So far we had great fights where my backline was unhurt, but also a couple of fights where one of my party members nearly died, luckily we somehow survived.
Dave Justus wrote:
My guess is that you are finding that while you don't take much damage, you don't deal a lot of damage either and therefore aren't really all that effective.
Actually I am one of the main damage dealers in my party right now, we have a wizard I believe who spends her spells only on big or dangerous packs of monsters and a rogue sniper who finds it really hard to deal damage outside of sneak attacks. My attacks are consistent and painful.
Dave Justus wrote:
Obvious thing that you are missing is Power Attack, generally considered a must-have feat for a full BAB melee combatant. It also seems to me you are missing the 'Step Up' feat, which you need ofr Following Step and Step Up and Strike.
I actually have Power Attack it is listed at lvl 1 feats, I also have Step Up, I just forgot to list it.
Dave Justus wrote:
I'm also guessing that your idea was to get close to caster characters and lock them down, but you are having issues with movement to do that, since I don't see anything that gives you more that the 20' of movement you would have from wearing plate. Magic Items and/or coordination with teammates can help with that.
Yes, I have a pair of magic boots, so my speed is actually 30'. I also use Charge to get closer to casters tho I have to admit we didn't have many caster enemies yet, but I'd like to prepare in advance.
Dave Justus wrote:
I would also look at the Item Mastery feats, in particular Flight Mastery might benefit you greatly as far as mobility is concerned.
I am not familiar with item mastery, also we have very limited founds to buy items and we cannot just buy anything we want, we have to travel to certain places, but as I mentioned earlier I have a magic pair of boots so my speed is not so bad.
I hope my answers will help to clarify what my intentions are, I am a tank but I also deal decent damage, I have two attacks in full round, step up and strike feat so I don't have to waste movement on following an enemy if he tries to escape, I have 27 AC, so that I can take decent damage and I can disruptive which I hope will compensate my lack of Will defense and touch defense.
The feats that I don't like are:
Spellbreaker
Missile Shield
Teleport Tactician
Ray Shield
But I couldn't find anything better. Maybe if someone who has more experience would take a look at this build and tell me what other feats fit it.
You don't have the Wings discovery yet?
You should also think about getting Vestigal Arm - that way, you can weild your sword in two hands (resulting in adding 1.5 times strength and 3 times the power attack modifier to damage dealt) while still using a shield.
d3zt1ny wrote: Actually I am one of the main damage dealers in my party right now, we have a wizard I believe who spends her spells only on big or dangerous packs of monsters and a rogue sniper who finds it really hard to deal damage outside of sneak attacks. My attacks are consistent and painful. It's not actually surprising. There aren't any bosses with enrage timers that check your DPS or anything, so how much damage a character does can only meaningfully be evaluated in comparison to the party. Rogue is just about the worst character for a beginner, so it's not much a surprise that you're surpassing him. Wizard also takes a bit of system mastery to be good at dealing damage, and it's not really their most efficient focus, anyway (they can help in other ways, for instance by casting Haste). Does your party only consist of 3 PCs?
You might not have the skill ranks for it, but Flickerign Step from the new Planar Adventrues, when combined with Dimensional Dervish, is pretty amazing.
Edit: Oh, and one more thing: Your character isn't bad, actually. It doesn't suffer from the usual problems first time martial characters tend to have: Crippling overspecializition, often on doing damage under narrow conditions, and glaring weaknesses, often against magical effects.
Derklord wrote: You don't have the Wings discovery yet?
I don't, I am not quite sure how wings work, so I will have to consult with one of our most experienced player.
Derklord wrote:
You should also think about getting Vestigal Arm - that way, you can weild your sword in two hands (resulting in adding 1.5 times strength and 3 times the power attack modifier to damage dealt) while still using a shield.
WOW, I didn't know that! That is amazing! I thought that growing a 3rd hand would not benefit me that much, I could hold another potion maybe as I don't have Two-Weapon Fighting feats. I will surely take that discovery next time I can! Thank you very much.
Derklord wrote:
Does your party only consist of 3 PCs?
No, we have a 4th, a healer, he does not deal any damage, but that is completely fine. He is half bard half something that heals our party.
Derklord wrote:
You might not have the skill ranks for it, but Flickerign Step from the new Planar Adventrues, when combined with Dimensional Dervish, is pretty amazing.
We are not allowed to use any additional books unfortunately as it would greatly increase the material we have to learn. As it is our first campaign we decided to go simple.
Derklord wrote:
Edit: Oh, and one more thing: Your character isn't bad, actually. It doesn't suffer from the usual problems first time martial characters tend to have: Crippling overspecializition, often on doing damage under narrow conditions, and glaring weaknesses, often against magical effects.
The only reason I thought it is bad is because I haven't seen anything like that on the internet even tho I searched for hours. My only problem is that I don't really like those feats: Spellbreaker,Missile Shield,Teleport Tactician,Ray Shield
I am trying to find something that would be more beneficial to my character. Teleport Tactician might be fine, but missile shield and ray shield, I really dislike those.
Yeah, I'd say the wings discovery is the best option. It more than replace the mobility that you lost from armor training.
ok maybe I am dumb but I don't understand, someone please explain, Derklord said:
Derklord wrote:
You should also think about getting Vestigal Arm... resulting in adding 1.5 times strength and 3 times the power attack modifier to damage dealt
from the feat's description:
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
How do I get 3 times the power attack modifier if it only increases by 50%?
d3zt1ny wrote: How do I get 3 times the power attack modifier if it only increases by 50%? Sorry for being unclear, I meant that you get a three times the attack roll penalty as a damage bonus, compared to the normal two times. 3:1 ratio (damage bonus to attack penalty) instead of 2:1 ratio.
d3zt1ny wrote: No, we have a 4th, a healer, he does not deal any damage, but that is completely fine. He is half bard half something that heals our party. Kinda expected that. That's another character that's not really that useful. That doesn't mean it's not OK to play it - as long as the player is happy, the other players are happy, and the campaign works, everythign is fine.
Just so you understand what Dave Justus was talking about, a little sample calculation. I don't know your stats and equipment, but presuming 29 strength and a +1 weapon, you do an average of 22.5 damage per round on a full attack against an average CR8 monster, or 39.7 with Haste from the Bard or Wizard. 28.3 and 49.9, respectively, if you two-hand your sword. My Summoner from a campaign that ended earlier this year, or to be more precise her Eidolon, does an average of 99.4 damage per round against such an enemy. On a round where charge is needed, your damage drops to 16.1 (20.2 with two-handing, 17.2 with haste, 21.6 with both) while the Eidolon's raises to 112.6.
In other words, it'd be pretty easy to overshadow your Fighter, but as you don't have any such character in your party, it all works out well.
d3zt1ny wrote: The only reason I thought it is bad is because I haven't seen anything like that on the internet even tho I searched for hours. Well, it isn't really a definite "build", but that's normal, and totally fine. You've got the basics covered, and everything else depends on your party composition and the campaign anyway.
d3zt1ny wrote: My only problem is that I don't really like those feats: Spellbreaker, Missile Shield, Teleport Tactician, Ray Shield Then don't take them. You don't need to pick your 14th level feat just yet. Play until then and see what you're lacking, or what you would like more of.
Derklord wrote:
d3zt1ny wrote: My only problem is that I don't really like those feats: Spellbreaker, Missile Shield, Teleport Tactician, Ray Shield Then don't take them. You don't need to...
Thank you very much, you helped a lot. I would like to deal more damage if it is possible but I haven't found a way to increase my damage via combat feats. Nothing really catches my eye, even tho I looked at every single combat feat there is.
A little update, I decided to go for more damage since you guys helped me to realize I will be more useful and my party will be stronger overall:
lvl 1 Power Attack, Shield Focus, Step Up
lvl 2 Dodge
lvl 3 Weapon Focus
lvl 4 Weapon Specialization
lvl 5 Iron Will, Weapon Training
lvl 6 Disruptive
lvl 7 Following Step, Preserve Organs (mutation warrior)
lvl 8 Step Up-and-Strike
now the stuff I changed:
lvl 9 Weapon Focus, Greater, Weapon Training +2
lvl 10 Critical Focus and a weapon with Keen
lvl 11 Advanced Weapon Training feat -> Armed Bravery (Ex)
lvl 12 Weapon Spec, Greater, replaces Shield Focus, Penetrating Strike
lvl 13 Advanced Weapon Training feat -> Fighter's Reflexes, Weapon Training +3
I took the +1 upgrade to attack and damage rolls from Weapon Training at lvl 9 and 13 to further increase my damage, I also took some defensive feats like Advanced Weapon Training Armed Bravery and Fighter's Reflexes. This is solid so far in my opinion, for levels 14-20 I would like to take Barbarian as my multi-class for some extra damage and mobility, not quite sure how to build my character at that point, I am not familiar with the barbarian, maybe I'll ask for help later but right now I think this is the route I will settle for.
d3zt1ny wrote: I would like to deal more damage if it is possible but I haven't found a way to increase my damage via combat feats. I actually forgot the strength bonus from your mutagen, so with Haste, your full attack damage would be 50.8 (1H). You should also be able to afford a +2 weapon by now, for 56.9 average damage. 65.0 and 72.1 respectively for two-handing.
That's actually pretty good, the main problem is the damage when you have to move (which is why I suggested Flickering Step). There's a limit to what you can get via feats, but you should look to buy Gloves of Dueling.
You misunderstand how advanced weapon training works. You always progress your previously chosen weapon groups. Picking an AWT option replaces getting an additional group at that level. So, at 9th level, you get +2 on heavy blades, and Armed Bravery (instead of +2 to heavy blades, and +1 to for instances bows).
d3zt1ny wrote: for levels 14-20 I would like to take Barbarian as my multi-class for some extra damage and mobility Huh? I thought multiclassing was disallowd by your GM?
Derklord wrote: You should also be able to afford a +2 weapon by now... Gloves of Dueling.
Sadly all I have is 5k gold, I cannot really buy those gloves and we do not have access to magic weapon crafting skill because none of us have it. But I will try to convince our GM to give us an opportunity to buy the weapon.
Derklord wrote:
You misunderstand how advanced weapon training works. You always progress your previously chosen weapon groups...
Again a crucial piece of information, thank you so much you just freed 2 more feats for me :D
Derklord wrote:
I thought multiclassing was disallowd by your GM?
It is disallowed, but we already have a bard/cleric multiclass in our group, I hope I can talk the GM into allowing me to take the multiclass, however it will only happen after 14, I realized that if I wait 1 more level in fighter I'll get bravery +4, so it is worth it.
For barbarian levels I found some really great rage powers:
lvl 15 1st Critical, Stunning, Fast movement, rage change to breastplate
lvl 16 2nd uncanny dodge, Superstition
lvl 17 3rd Penetrating Strike, Greater, trap sense 1
lvl 18 4th Witch Hunter
lvl 19 5th improved uncanny dodge, iron will improved
lvl 20 6th Spell Sunder, trap sense 2
what do you think about that? you already helped me a lot so I don't want to be a burden, but as you already pointed out a lot of my mistakes earlier I hope you can take a quick glance at this list, maybe I misunderstood something else again.
yeah I talked to my DM he won't allow me to get a few levels in barbarian so ignore my previous post
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