Okay to repeat what I Said in one of the first posts on Venom spurs there is no language In venom spur calling it one or the other so comparing it to integrated weapons & boneblades or to polyhands, shock pads & withering hands is equally meaningless ...you don't know the intent if your not one of the creators ....also I still have the augmentations language on 208 telling me it counts as a bodypart "once installed they become part of you body" AND IT IS A EXTERNAL EXTREMITY. If i can kick you with climbing clawed x legs I can probably stab you with my palm spike made for stabbing ....also Ravingdork makes a good point that i had overlooked venom spur is reference as a "stinger" which very strongly implies that it is a natural attack ...and ISSAC you are deliberately miss quoting the Venom spur IT NEVER REFERENCES IT AS A WEAPON ....THIS WAS YOUR QUOTE.... "A one-handed weapon(ACTUALLY SAYS STINGER) which requires a free hand to draw with a swift action, and deals 1d6 piercing damage. Creatures struck with this weapon(ACTUALLY SAYS STINGER) must make a fortitude save or take 2d6 poison damage each round until they succeed at this save." .......when you start making shit up you have kinda lost the argument
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
... an unarmed strike, is also a weapon in Starfinder. It is on the weapon chart, so before going all caps rage, understand what you are talking about.
Again, other than a specific ability, Starfinder does not have natural weapons/attacks.
I have not made anything up, everything I have said has basis within the game as fact and can be checked. My "misquote" was rounding up what information we do have about the Venom Spur and putting it in a more simple format.
Ravingdork and I have gone at it before, we're both rules traditionalists and want the most accurate information. I have actually marked a few of the back and forth statements for FAQ because there were good constructive points. What is your stake though that you're actually getting mad over this to the point of not taking the time to fact check your tantrums?
and now to address the "imbalance" issue ....LOL ..first off you know its not real poison right ? it's "venom" and is quite frankly a joke ...no lowering on the condition track, no automatic damage based on dc, usable once per combat with a reasonable save you get to attempt every round....Most combats don't last long enough for it to play a major part even if it works...actually just wanted It for character concept i want BioTech .....Second I don't think you would not get you use it with Hammerfist because Hammerfist specifically states it can never be combined with an another ability that modifies unarmed strike and i would consider the ability to envenomate just that......Third never said they were operative weapons ......Fourth and most importantly how does 7d6 plus 30 + str & 1/2 plus 2d6 poison with a save every rd unbalance the game ....I'll get 7d6+40 str & 1/2 from the ring of fangs that's already better to me ....and will still do 14d8 +20 +str & 1/2 with a dimensional longsword ....or curve blade(ds) 12d10 + 20 +str +1/2(+6d6 bleed).....and that's a 2 hand weapon without unwieldy for better comparison ....so average dam unarmed without ring of fangs (no str included) 54(54.5)+2d6 w save (IF YOUR ONE RACE) otherwise 44 + 2d6 w save ( ..average damage dimensional LS(no str) 63... average damage curve blade (ds)(no str) 86....unarmed strike and Hammerfist are backup weapons and pretty far from being game breaking ..the best part about them is not having to buy weapons quite as often..although if you have just bough a weapon its probably better.....(lol forgot my damage for being attuned ...i do that allot )
Its something you attack and hit an AC with. Thats a weapon. I don't know what weird argument you're trying to make about it not being a weapon, but its silly.
natural weapons and unarmed strikes are the same thing in starfinder, or rather the natural weapon ability is a modification to ones unarmed strikes.
none actually I'm 3 level solider 2 level solarian ..going up the rest of my levels in solarian that uses a doshko and big guns and his teeth as a backup (or just because i like biting stuff) i'm kinda a crazy Vesk that thinks he is going to become a "space dragon" (don't know if that's even a thing in this game don't care) threw use of biotech, and likes to pretend he knows stuff about them(my favorite in game quote so far "Can i read draconic ...no, space dragons don't do that ..nothing to write on in space").. only interest in venom spurs because i want biotech (and a couple pieces of magitech ) in every part of my body (no necro, or cyber that's not polychains) ...LOL between pressurized lungs, force soles mk2 , ultralight dragon wings and solarian Defy Gravity and the 2 Aeon Stones and Force armor I'll get close enough.....also Synchronous heart...what you never seen dragon heart ?.....also have a sniper rifle, ...it's not really the spurs you need to worry about
Big Norse wolf ...1 does it say on page 208 first paragraph of augmentations "once installed they become part of you body"...You can use parts of your body to make unarmed strikes...... and 2 IT NEVER CALLS THEM WEAPONS, REFERRING TO THEM AS INSTEAD AS STINGERS ....and stingers are what? natural weapons
The giant run on sentence of the posts makes them REALLY hard to follow
also my Gm approved it months ago, correctly realizing it makes pretty much no difference in the long run ...so it really, really doesn't matter to me...just trying to call them like i see them
there, fixed it for you
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Again, tantrums. Whatever way you want to slice it, a natural weapon, would be a weapon as it is the second word. Natural weapons though are still lacking in Starfinder.
The balance comes from again, it is a non-option if it violates the non-stacking rules that the Starfinder team have gone out of their way to enforce. It's evident in every part of the game, most visible in that many things share the "insight bonus" moniker. By keeping the bar low and preventing the collection of small boosts it makes the creation of APs easier, and stops one player from becoming overwhelming to the point of taking game away from others.
Your GM can approve whatever they want, but the major import and take away here is the game needs to be fun and make sense for everyone. Not just the alpha gamer whining about their boost not stacking them into the stratosphere and getting exceptions. At a SFS table, everyone needs to come in and be playing with the same understanding of the rules.
Ravingdork and I have gone at it before, we're both rules traditionalists and want the most accurate information.
Well, you've got that right. :)
also my Gm approved it months ago, correctly realizing it makes pretty much no difference in the long run ...so it really, really doesn't matter to me...just trying to call them like i see them
Until we get official clarification, I'm inclined to treat it as a natural attack/unarmed strike in my games.
At best, this puts other characters on par with vesk with a minor poison rider effect (this is no more overpowered in my mind than races without darkvision spending 200 credits to get the infrared sensors armor upgrade). I'm not sure yet if I'll give out the enhanced x1.5 weapon specialization since, unlike other natural weapons, it doesn't call that out as being a benefit.
The alternative is to have an augmentation that no one will ever take because it is so weak as to be borderline useless.
Ravingdork that's a judgment call ...but just a little unclear what you mean.... I was talking about a character that was a vesk, not adding the specialization to a character of another race. The way i look at it(and the way i would run it) is this the vesk is already doing 1+1/2 x lethal non archaic (or possibly 2 x with ring of fangs), adding possible poisoning to the 1+1/2 doesn't break the game. AS for the other races all though it doesn't say it i would let other races do lethal non-archaic with a venom spur unarmed strike but i don't think i would be giving out free specialization in unarmed strike.(maybe for soldiers?...have to think on that) Mostly they would have to buy Versatile specialization, and at any rate it would be 1X (or anyone can have x2 for a 325 credit ring)...Vesk should still be the best at unarmed but I don't think they should be the only ones who get to do it in a meaningful way
as to there not being "natural weapons" in starfinder....lets pick a monster ...oh look ..(Bloodbrother ..... Melee slam +18 (2d6+12 B plus 1d6 C and grab)...and lets take a look at their cold ability..... Cold (Su) A bloodbrother’s body generates intense cold, dealing 1d6 cold damage to any creature that hits it with a natural weapon or unarmed strike and to any creature the bloodbrother hits with its slam attack. A creature that begins its turn grappled by a bloodbrother also takes this damage..................HUM... Kinda interesting how the extra damage applies to both its natural attacks and its unarmed strikes ....don't you think ?
ravingdork... I also just really like the idea of other races having some way of doing decent unarmed that's not them biting people
works for a wannabe dragon though ......LOL can't believe i forgot to list the dragon gland earlier
AS for the other races all though it doesn't say it i would let other races do lethal non-archaic with a venom spur unarmed strike but i don't think i would be giving out free specialization in unarmed strike.(maybe for soldiers?...have to think on that) Mostly they would have to buy Versatile specialization, and at any rate it would be 1X (or anyone can have x2 for a 325 credit ring)...
This is the problem. You do not understand the rules. Unarmed strikes are a Basic Melee weapon, everyone is proficient in them, and recieves specialization at level 3. They do not require anything else.
Moving to your natural attacks call out however, good find. However, it does not support your arguement, because if you go to universal monster rules later in the book, this is what it says.
Natural weapons (and natural attacks), such as acid spit, bite, claw, or slam don’t require ammunition and can’t be disarmed or sundered.
It says nothing about any natural attack being an unarmed strike, it is a catch-all to say "you cannot remove this from the target". On top of that, monsters in Starfinder are not constructed to the same rules as PCs. There doesn't need to be classification for what each natural attack is like in Pathfinder, because monsters do not use feats that interact with them. Their version of specialization is just adding CR to all damage rolls, regardless of weapon (the Drow Nobke Arms Dealer shows this as their LFD Sonic Pistol, a Small Arm, still gets +11 damage per shot from their CR 11).
In addition, sticking with the Drow for an example, things that apply to monsters do not apply to even the player options that accompany them. Drow players get no access to Darkness in any form, where both Drow entries for enemies have the Darkness universal monster ability. As well Drow players can get Limning Light, albeit through a feat and (I posted a thread on the lack of clarity on this one) possibly with much heavier restriction being once per day.
For another example from Pact Worlds, the Borais are Undead type, however there is deliberate addition to their entry to clarify they do not get Undead Immunities, the universal monster rule. So using a monster entry to attempt to support an arguement for a player option doesn't work, as they play by entirely different rules.
Vesk should still be the best at unarmed but I don't think they should be the only ones who get to do it in a meaningful way
Which brings me to this, your stake in the arguement finally coming out. You don't think that Unarmed is a good enough option for non-Natural Weapons races. To start, the actual constraints of the Archaic and Nonlethal properties is a -5 to damage specifically against targets wearing armor, and running into the odd enemy like an undead with immunity to nonlethal damage since there is no separation of damage types.
If you want to bypass this, there are two different augments that now bypass this rather minimal drawback. The Shock Fist, and the Enervating Hand, and they appropriately play by the same types of restrictions as the Venom Spur, with the exception that the spur still continues to be a 1d6 melee weapon even when the poison is used.
Do I personally believe Paizo is overrestrictive with unarmed options? I dunno, ask my Pathfinder threads on the subject. However that does not give me the right to manipulate the rules to serve my vision of the game, like changing specialization rules to support one thing while ignoring another. Everyone needs a clear understanding of the rules at play, it's part of the RPG social contract.
I suspect that the Improved Unarmed Strike feat is supposed to make unarmed strikes lethal, and the omission of such formal language is a mistake.
I suspect that the Improved Unarmed Strike feat is supposed to make unarmed strikes lethal, and the omission of such formal language is a mistake.
I am inclined to agree. Archaic is the trait giving the -5 to damage. The only things the Nonlethal interact with as said, are things specifically immune (which I think may be a carry over from Pathfinder, since again there's really no difference), but the feat does say "make your unarmed strikes lethal" despite not actually doing so.
.HUM... Kinda interesting how the extra damage applies to both its natural attacks and its unarmed strikes ....don't you think ?
No. Since the rules argument is that they're the same thing it makes sense.
I did miss that unarmed strike is on the basic melee weapon list ...which actually make things a little bit better in that is answers how specialization works and gets other races closer to a vesk(I am a vesk and knew how it worked for me so i never had reason to look for it)....but, if its on the basic melee weapon chart it does go back to seeming like a viable target for a fusion .......LOL ..I like how you were just trying to tell natural attacks don't exist in starfinder (which is the main point of the bloodbrother post),and now you trying to tell me how they work, .....Here is the glaring whole in you argument ....ring of fangs ....When you wear this ring, your teeth become long and sharp, giving you a powerful BITE attack. You can choose to have your UNARMED STRIKES deal lethal piercing damage, and if you are 3rd level or higher, you automatically gain a special version of the Weapon Specialization feat that adds double your level to the damage of these unarmed attacks (rather than adding your level)......seems you can use bite attack as an unarmed attack .....also you still can't counter the language on 208 calling all augmentations part of your body ......oh and my favorite part ....(Isaac Zephyr) "Which brings me to this, your stake in the arguement finally coming out. You don't think that Unarmed is a good enough option for non-Natural Weapons races.".......yea... I'm going to be running the game next time, and want to run it as best as i can for my players ....you've discovered my secret motive ...MUH HA HA ........Seriously, I'm not going to be lectured to by someone i already caught changing the wording of venom spur to try and prove his point....to be quite frank I could care less what you're opinion is at this point you have already shown me you will make stuff up to support your view .....and from the beginning I've been asking if there was a official clarification ...if you wanted me to value you opinion you went about it the wrong way
ya know, just noticed there is a - for level on unarmed strike in basic melee weapon chart...that, makes a fusion tough
Seriously, I'm not going to be lectured to by someone i already caught changing the wording of venom spur to try and prove his point.
For the probably fifth time now, I didn't change anything about its wording, I simply presented it differently. Even if you want to consider it an unarmed strike, it is still a weapon, specifically it would be a Basic Melee weapon, and would fall under tge description I presented. I will die on this hill to try and make sure someone else trying to use these forums for answers gets the proper information so they can use it. You are not my reasoning for continuing.
The Ring of Fangs specifically words modifying your unarmed strikes. It, to paraphrase, gives you a bite attack that is an unarmed strike. Venom Spur has no such language. What it does have is in parts unclear, especially when compared to later entries.
ya know, just noticed there is a - for level on unarmed strike in basic melee weapon chart...that, makes a fusion tough
Yes, and this is part of the balancing act.
If you are insistent it is an unarmed strike, then it cannot be modified by weapon fusion. This has been discussed a number of times on the forums. If it is, it violates the set balance by applying with Improved Unarmed Strike, making it again, a non-option even without the poison.
ya know, just noticed there is a - for level on unarmed strike in basic melee weapon chart...that, makes a fusion tough
Yeah, even with the assumed boost of a venom spur being an unarmed strike/natural weapon, they still fall well behind manufactured weapons for a variety of other reasons.
not trying to disagree it's a basic weapon, obvious now that i see it on the chart ...Actually i had gotten the impression it wasn't from people on this forum saying it can't get Fusions because its not a weapon ...Originally my question was on if any of those things had been clarified and turned into something else like if they had clarified & classified venom spur as a integrated weapon or something ...if not, then it still falls under unarmed and (possibly)can't be enchanted.(i'll get to that "possibly") ...and the polyhand still has the other issue beside that (tool weapons).... The armor questions seemed fairly well agreed on but i just found my way back into that somehow(i think we agree that Hammerfist and bonuses to unarmed don't stack,like vesk 1+1/2 or theoretical venom).....now here's where we might get into it, but I've continued to think on the subject and i came up with a new "Hitch" and a new separate question ....
If an unarmed strike is a basic weapon and you get a level out of a venom spur or a polyhand ...then you would seemingly have a level on the unarmed attack, (think about this if they are using the polyhand to get threw /adamantium on a unarmed strike its hard to say to the player their not using their polyhand as a weapon)...but here's the real hitch...what if you have two venom spurs,would that be one enchant on unarmed strike or two? OR what if I have a venom spur in one hand and the get a polyhand do you have a separate 2 and 14 enchant....or a 16? ... if its that complicated ...its probably wrong ...so i was about to give up on that ....and then i saw it (bangs head on desk)
Club (of all things) level 0 .....so if the dash doesn't mean 0 ...what does it mean ? your level? that would seem to make sense(and of course nothing to tell you in the book) and if they really wanted no fusions why not make it 0 like the club....If that's the case then its a basic melee weapon with a level so why can't it be enchanted again(is there an actual piazo ruling on this?).
....and please don't give me the balance issue because both unarmed and powerfists are way down the list on melee weapon damage and the only thing they kinda need to be balanced with is each other ...its just bad math ..They are backup weapons (and i can only hear balancing issue so many times before i start ranting about skills and why it's lame that only one class that can pilot)
.....and also now that i think about it,if that is the case nothing would prevent fusions on your unarmed strikes from working with hammerfist ...fusions are not "abilities that apply specifically to unarmed strikes" ...... (LOL ..i may have just trapped us in a infinite loop...LOL...wonderful)
you would need new fusions every level or you could buy seals 2 levels higher and you would still grow out of them eventually ....they would still be about the worst thing you could spend money on ...like a said another money sink hole....and all the pc's are happy
I have gone down the rabbit hole of "-" vs "0" in my unarmed fusions discussion months ago. The concensus essentially came down to that Unarmed Strikes are never bought, so they have no level, they are innate. A club needs a level for availability of purchase in any particular settlement.
To briefly jump to other topics, the Polyhand cannot have a fusion on it even with a level because it is not a weapon. This was discussed in another topic on whether you could add fusions to power armor since they have levels and modify Unarmed Strikes. The concensus is no, you cannot put fusions on non-weapons.
The Venom Spur still lacks classification. We can gather what we do know about it, but we cannot tell whether it is an Advanced or Basic melee weapon for the purpose of Specialization/Weapon Focus. Not having this information does not default it to being an Unarmed Strike, because not all unclassified weapons are Unarmed Strikes. An Unarmed Strike is a Basic Melee weapon with the Archaic and Nonlethal properties, but not all Basic Melee weapons are Unarmed Strikes, they are different and that matters because there are affects and abilities that do affect Unarmed Strikes that don't apply to all Basic Melee weapons.
Saying that the balance is entirely damage based is misleading. Unarmed Strikes are free, and cost plays a vital role in balance of power. Improved Unarmed puts Unarmed Strikes equal in power (and sometimes more powerful) to Dueling Swords until level 15, plus they have the advantage of being usable while your hands are otherwise occupied. They are very powerful for their cost, but they are not alpha gamer "max DPS", and not being the latter is an important check and balance on a free weapon.
Onto Venom Spurs and fusions though, I frankly don't know. That though is because I don't know how or if Fusions work with Bone Blades. They have multiple different level options, and they are fully classified weapons so we know exactly which seals should apply. Same with the Optical Laser, Shock Fist, and Enervating Hand (the latter two of which are specifically Unarmed Strike mods, creating further questions).
So really, we need the proper information for what the Venom Spur actually is before being able to make any sort of call on it, because even if you consider the stinger aspect a natural attack, in the system an unarmed strike is considered a natural attack, but natural attacks are not all considered unarmed strikes. For players many are, but they are always called out as such, and for monsters they are separate things else the broodbrother from earlier wouldn't have used the language "its natural attacks or unarmed strikes".
Improved Unarmed Strikes and hammerfist arn't entirely free they take character investment (if i could buy feats at great sums of money i probably would)...,,with polyhand I'm really only left wondering about the newly added tool-weapons
........Here's the thing that's still a catch with Venom spur ...it's still an augmentation ....and thus a body part just like the x legs or the polyhand ...they don't need a listed attack for me to do my unarmed damage with them and in the case of the polyhand makes it addamantium (SIGHS, I THINK...and would rule) and the bloodbrother does it with its cold ability ....so why when i make an unarmed attack with my palm spike wouldn't it add the poison ...both game mechanics wise and logically .........
natural attacks are made with body parts(with rare exceptions mostly ranged) ...if you can use that part to make a natural attack you can use to make unarmed strike (at unarmed strike damage) ...unarmed strike description under weapons.... unarmed strike can be with any limb or appendage .....i have to default to that until they clarify it as a integrated weapon
Isaac Zephyr I went back and reread and I do see now that you were trying to make a substitution to make a point ....I do not agree with that point, but i realize you were not miss-representing rules ...sorry.. I was irritated at that point
Isaac Zephyr I went back and reread and I do see now that you were trying to make a substitution to make a point ....I do not agree with that point, but i realize you were not miss-representing rules ...sorry.. I was irritated at that point
No worries. We've all been there. ^_^ We coo'.
found some wording that kinda supports not having a level for unarmed strike ...new Gear Boost Unarmed Mauler in armory(gives you unarmed strikes a level for purposes of crit effects) ..only problem is it mentions other critical effects on unarmed strikes ...how could you get those on unarmed strikes ? raw lethality...but that doesn't give a level to the attack