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Any word on how the more "Adult" or controversial content will be handled for this Edition?
Will we be seeing more/different rules or systems which revolve around the use of Drugs, Alchohol, as well the purchase of Slaves, Ladies/Men of the Night, and the like? Services such as Assassination, Thugs/Mooks to protect you, or simple Hireling rules seem like a ripe area for improvement.
Over all I think Paizo did a great job the last time around, but I wonder if this new Edition will have any changes coming down the pipeline especially since it sounds like Consumables are going to have a MAJOR makeover for the new System balance.
Thoughts?
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I don't want there to be official rules for slavery and prostitutes. If individual tables want to explore those themes, they can and should homebrew their own stuff.
Full disclosure, when I was like 8 I got my hands on the original DMG and read through it and discovered the "Harlot encounter subtable". It was like a decade before I realized a "trollop" wasn't a kind of troll and a "doxy" wasn't a thing like a pixie.
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Seems like a major waste of space in the CRB. Would make more sense in a Player's Companion, if anything.
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I don't want there to be official rules for slavery and prostitutes. If individual tables want to explore those themes, they can and should homebrew their own stuff.
Both slaves and the services of a prostitute have listed prices in Ultimate Equipment. No details beyond that, but they exist.
And like I said, I see no reason Paizo would change that existing policy.
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This is the sort of thing that puts new players off rather than brings them in. I cant think of a single thing in my experience that has put more potential first time rpg players off than a GM or other player getting creepy about RP slaves and prostitution.
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This is the sort of thing that puts new players off rather than brings them in. I cant think of a single thing in my experience that has put more potential first time rpg players off than a GM or other player getting creepy about RP slaves and prostitution.
And very little behavior puts the tabletop RPG community in a poorer light than players getting indignant about "why can't I play a slaver/pimp/drug dealer" or some other bit of edgy juvenalia.
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This is the sort of thing that puts new players off rather than brings them in. I cant think of a single thing in my experience that has put more potential first time rpg players off than a GM or other player getting creepy about RP slaves and prostitution.And very little behavior puts the tabletop RPG community in a poorer light than players getting indignant about "why can't I play a slaver/pimp/drug dealer" or some other bit of edgy juvenalia.
I deny that playing a pimp is necessarily edgy or juvenile. Al Swearengen from HBO's Deadwood is arguably one of the best characters in fiction. I can imagine a very good campaign set around a gold find that draws heavily from this show.
However, I don't think you need specific rules for prostitution or slavery. I think the down time rules would cover it well enough.
I hope that prostitutes are still hireable in PF2, because they're the cheapest form of labour in PF1 and very useful for building an army. They also work well with a bag of holding as you can fit plenty inside of them and release thousands of them armed with spears whenever you get in a fight. Strength in numbers :)
I hope that prostitutes are still hireable in PF2, because they're the cheapest form of labour in PF1 and very useful for building an army. They also work well with a bag of holding as you can fit plenty inside of them and release thousands of them armed with spears whenever you get in a fight. Strength in numbers :)
They should at least be trained in spear handling. Some should be expert and master level.
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This is the sort of thing that puts new players off rather than brings them in. I cant think of a single thing in my experience that has put more potential first time rpg players off than a GM or other player getting creepy about RP slaves and prostitution.
"Getting creepy" are the keywords. Those are a reality of our world even today and where common and more accepted in the past. We don't need material about that in the core rulebook, but in a campaign game? Sure.
Even simply to have something to be against or as a mean (slave labor) to keep monster prisoners alive.
But there is no reason to do that in a "creepy" way unless the targets are a mature audience that can manage that, and hopefully to show why it is bad.
Depicting a Viking-like village without thralls going around doing menials works make it a non-Viking village, or better a Disney Viking village.
This is the sort of thing that puts new players off rather than brings them in. I cant think of a single thing in my experience that has put more potential first time rpg players off than a GM or other player getting creepy about RP slaves and prostitution.And very little behavior puts the tabletop RPG community in a poorer light than players getting indignant about "why can't I play a slaver/pimp/drug dealer" or some other bit of edgy juvenalia.I deny that playing a pimp is necessarily edgy or juvenile. Al Swearengen from HBO's Deadwood is arguably one of the best characters in fiction. I can imagine a very good campaign set around a gold find that draws heavily from this show.
However, I don't think you need specific rules for prostitution or slavery. I think the down time rules would cover it well enough.
Well I feel like this is one of these things where if you have a player who you know to be a really thoughtful and taleted roleplayer and they come to you with a detailed plan and associated character arc, you don't have to say "no."
But one of the strengths of something like Pathfinder is that you can play it with randos. I've played some great RPGs that you literally cannot run with randos (like C:tL which is literally a game about being an abuse survivor), but Pathfinder and its kind are things where you don't have to know your players super-well.
So I think in contexts where you don't know your players really well, we should not encourage them to try to push these particular boundaries.
As long as they're not too graphic, I'd at least appreciate to see at least the price tags for those, um, "(questionable) services", as their raw nature makes the in-game world look more realistic and believable (= more verisimilitude) for me. Then further details will be ironed out by each individual groups, as usual (if they seriously want to explore this part of the world, that is).
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Can we not compare slavery and sex work like it's the same thing? Forced prostitution absolutely, since that is a type of slavery, but not all sex workers are being forced into their profession.
I'm not really interested in detailed rules or numbers for slaves, but sex work I'd be fine with, and Golarion is a really sex positive world, with Deities of sex and sex workers such as Calistria and Lymnieris.
Can we not compare slavery and sex work like it's the same thing?
Please point to a single post made in this thread that was indicating it is the same thing.
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I deny that playing a pimp is necessarily edgy or juvenile. Al Swearengen from HBO's Deadwood is arguably one of the best characters in fiction. I can imagine a very good campaign set around a gold find that draws heavily from this show.
However, I don't think you need specific rules for prostitution or slavery. I think the down time rules would cover it well enough.
Well I feel like this is one of these things where if you have a player who you know to be a really thoughtful and taleted roleplayer and they come to you with a detailed plan and associated character arc, you don't have to say "no."
But one of the strengths of something like Pathfinder is that you can play it with randos. I've played some great RPGs that you literally cannot run with randos (like C:tL which is literally a game about being an abuse survivor), but Pathfinder and its kind are things where you don't have to know your players super-well.
So I think in contexts where you don't know your players really well, we should not encourage them to try to push these particular boundaries.
You are certainly correct that Paizo should be careful when including more adult content. Definitely a lot of pitfalls and potential to cause people to be uncomfortable, when all they really wanted to do was play heroes in search of adventure.
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Can we not compare slavery and sex work like it's the same thing?Please point to a single post made in this thread that was indicating it is the same thing.
Will we be seeing more/different rules or systems which revolve around the use of Drugs, Alchohol, as well the purchase of Slaves, Ladies/Men of the Night, and the like?
I don't want there to be official rules for slavery and prostitutes. If individual tables want to explore those themes, they can and should homebrew their own stuff.
I cant think of a single thing in my experience that has put more potential first time rpg players off than a GM or other player getting creepy about RP slaves and prostitution.
No one has made the blatant statement that they are the same thing, no, but there's plenty of posts here and elsewhere where they get thrown into the same boat.
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That's not what was being said and not what I was talking about, slavery and sex work being equated morally was what I was pointing out to hopefully nip that, not slavery and sex work being literally the same thing.The very fact all those quotes feel the need to explicitly mention prostitution in addition to slavery shows they don't consider them the same thing. If they did it wouldn't need to be mentioned, or would be mentioned as a sub part of slavery.Can we not compare slavery and sex work like it's the same thing?Please point to a single post made in this thread that was indicating it is the same thing.Will we be seeing more/different rules or systems which revolve around the use of Drugs, Alchohol, as well the purchase of Slaves, Ladies/Men of the Night, and the like?I don't want there to be official rules for slavery and prostitutes. If individual tables want to explore those themes, they can and should homebrew their own stuff.I cant think of a single thing in my experience that has put more potential first time rpg players off than a GM or other player getting creepy about RP slaves and prostitution.No one has made the blatant statement that they are the same thing, no, but there's plenty of posts here and elsewhere where they get thrown into the same boat.
The very fact all those quotes feel the need to explicitly mention prostitution in addition to slavery-
People bringing them up in the same sentence, explicitly in the same sentence, like there's an equal wrongness to them is the issue.
I assume that there will be a table with estimated costs for hiring an untrained, trained, expert, or master NPC for any non-crafting profession. I think some guidelines for a legality multiplier would help fill out the space the OP was discussing. Something like: x1.5 for crimes punishable by a fine or short imprisonment, x3 for crimes punishable for medium imprisonment, or x10 for crimes punishable by life in prison or execution.
So you can always make more money if you are willing to break the law. As a player Id think the normal use a trade rules would apply with minor changes.
1. You must roll, no assurance or taking 10
2. the DC is an opposed roll not a static DC (makes it a little more chaotic)
3. A critical failure means you are caught by the authorities.
Still such a subsystem might be better left for the GMG or similar supplemental book, it doesn't seem particularly relevant to core gameplay.
Mostly the issue I had with prostitution in this context are contexts in which it is exploitative. I've always noticed that edgy folks are always more keen to play a pimp than a sex worker- the former gets eyerolls but the latter does not. I mean, a Cleric of Arshea or Calistria can be exactly one of those two things (which is a very appropriate backstory.)
One of the reasons I don't want set prices in books for sex work is that it implies that there's some sort of external structure setting rates. I would much rather respond "how much to hire a courtesan" with "they are independent contractors and choose their own clientele and set their own rates."
I mean when you think of it there's no reason for every mundane non-masterwork backpack to cost the same- some craftsfolk are going to do a better job at making bags than others, but we abstract the item and its price because "carrying stuff" is a necessary part of the standard adventure. I don't think there's any reason to do the same with sex work. We can afford to set prices on the fly if it comes up.
One thing I'm curious about is why people want codified game rules for this sort of thing rather than trusting their GM. I'm sort of concerned that putting it in the rulebook will answer "I'm uncomfortable with this" with "But the rules say..."
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Mostly the issue I had with prostitution in this context are contexts in which it is exploitative. I've always noticed that edgy folks are always more keen to play a pimp than a sex worker- the former gets eyerolls but the latter does not.
In my CotCT game a couple of PCs (one male, one female) both pulled some shifts at a brothel at one point after the madam made them an offer (I actually more or less expected them to turn it down). For a bit there it's what they did to make money during downtime. Meanwhile, I've never had anyone try to play a pimp.
Maybe my group is just weird?
No I bring up prostitution next to slavery because they're two angles which players have a history of "being creepy" about.
And lets not delude ourselves into thinking that the not being creepy people aren't outnumbered by makes it creepy for at least one person at the table by a factor of 10 or more.
You have to realize that its not just a matter of "everyone at the table" is comfortable with this. Its people talking about their campaigns on a crowded bus (my recent experience and reason #1 I don't advertise that I play TTRPG's anymore) or things overheard in semi-public spaces. Players get excited, talk about the games they're enjoying too loudly, and when that material is involved it creeps the people around them out.
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Find me people who have dealt with undead IRL and we'll have a conversation about that.
Its about the demographic you're looking to reach with your game. Players aren't going to be made uncomfortable by these things not being included, but a bunch of people sure will by their inclusion.
Can we not compare slavery and sex work like it's the same thing? Forced prostitution absolutely, since that is a type of slavery, but not all sex workers are being forced into their profession.Yes, I know some very content, focused, happy, successful ones.
"I'm not just the president of Hair Club for Men, I'm also a client."
However, there is a need to have a base line so that a GM can effectively change values without throwing the economy out of wack.
I mean, the economy of the game world already doesn't work, it's just a kludge to balance things for players.
So I see no problem in having the price to hire some companionship be "whatever number the GM invents on the spot." It's not like anybody's heroic journey requires them to be able to hire whichever sex workers they want whenever they want.
If players want their characters to be sex workers, we can just use the rules for lore/perform checks to earn money. For NPCs, there is no need.
Perhaps a rule where if you play an awesome mandolin solo you get a bonus to Diplomacy/Intimidate