I mentioned this in a couple of other recent threads, but on elcordude's recommendation, posting it in its own thread.
What are the rules of Loot cards inside Class Decks? As far as I know, this is a situation that is thus far unique to Honaire in the Occult Adventures 1 Character Deck, which (of course) starts in Estra's deck. It makes intuitive sense that you cannot use a Card Upgrade to add it to your deck it like you could another Deck B ally, but can it be added to your deck in other situations, like it could be added to non-Estra decks in standard play?
As has been pointed out before, in normal gameplay you can pick up old Loot cards to fill empty card slots in your deck if they are of an AD# at least 2 beneath the current AD#. This would mean that in Mummy's Mask, if you're forced to replace an ally later in the adventure path you very well may be able to include the Mummy's Mask Honaire in your deck.
Does that rule also occur in Organised Play? And so if a Tier 2 character spends a Card Feat for an Ally, they can immediately include Honaire, even if they're Rivani or Meligaster? What about if you're playing a Tier 1 Meligaster, and you put a card feat into Ally (where, if you have no add-on deck, there are no more legal deck B basics left in the class box). Can you add Honaire in then as per the Hierarchy rules (quoted below), or is he hard-locked out of being included if you're not Estra? If so, what is the specific rules reason?
1. Use cards that have the set indicator B and the Basic trait.
2. Use cards that have the set indicator B without the Basic trait.
Note that the Hierarchy - nor anything in the Guild Guide, as far as I can tell - mentions an exception for Loot cards. Honaire fulfills every requirement of "Hierarchy 2." as listed.
Flagged for being moved to the Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild forum.
My gut feeling is by RAW taking Honaire is allowed, but that might not be intended.
I agree with elcoderdude. I don't believe there's anything different between a Loot and any other boon except that they are never dealt into locations or drawn randomly from the box.
That seems to suggest that, even aside from the situations I mentioned (which centered around card replacement, where Loot can be taken under certain circumstances of normal Non-OP gameplay as well), you can also take them as normal card upgrades.
I feel that wouldn't be RAI, but I don't see anything in the Card Guild Guide that says you can't. The only reason non-OP players can't grab Loot cards whenever they want is because they're not in location decks to find, fundamentally.
If it is supposed to be available, that seems to make Rivani and Meligaster a bit better, though, especially early on. A card that functions as a heal as well as (at minimum) +1d6+1 to any combat, strength, dexterity or constitution check by placing it on top of your deck will distinctly expand on your potential successes in a turn more than another individual ally from deck B or 1 could.
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Practically speaking, is the Honaire example even an issue?
Loot cards aren't available to characters unless:
- they are a scenario/adventure reward or are otherwise earned during a scenario
- a character's rules instruct that the loot card is part of the character's deck (as in OA2 Estra's case)
- a character that has a loot via one of the above gives the loot to another character/loses the loot to a location deck and another character encounters the card
The whole Meligaster/Rivani line in OP is a red herring. If you're playing one of those characters in OP, you're not also playing Estra from the same deck. Even if someone else is playing OA2 Estra in OP and loses Honaire, the Meligaster/Rivani characters couldn't keep Honaire because Honaire isn't coming from *their* deck (he's coming from a different OA2 deck). "Cards given or exchanged during play should be returned to the owner when the game is over." Honaire couldn't be taken as a deck upgrade because he's a loot and hasn't been earned. So the hypothetical OP situation could not take place.
All that said, it seems intuitive that the PFSCG Guide might need a clarification that character deck loot cards are only available to the character(s) in whose decks they are identified (when constructing/upgrading decks). There's room to shore up the rules for loot cards in OP on pages 7 and 10 of the PFSACG Guide.
Similarly, the regular rules should either explicitly exclude loot cards from being available if you can't construct a valid deck from the cards your group has available, or they should clarify that the only loot cards available in this way are those that have been earned as a scenario/adventure award (i.e., loot cards that are inherently part of a character's deck via their rules may only be kept by those characters in between games). There's room to shore up the rules for loot cards in regular play on pages 19 and 24 of the (Mummy's Mask) rulebook.
I think we're making a mountain out of a molehill here. Just my opinion.
Just to clarify a couple of points.
Firstly; it's OA1 not OA2, but no difference to the arguments there.
It's certainly not a critical consideration. However, my 'concern' is that - depending on the exact nature of how a non-Estra character could (in OP) have Honaire as part of their core deck - I feel it somewhat improves Meligaster and Rivani relative to Estra, especially in earlier tiers.
Does it make Estra a weaker character relative to them (especially Rivani) if Honaire is no longer unique to her? Certainly, I can't see myself taking any card upgrade before "Ally B -> Honaire" for either of the other Rivani or Meligaster, assuming it's a legal upgrade for me to pick after the first scenario in OP. I'm, perhaps, very slightly, regretting my choice of OA1 character for one of my OP seasons if Honaire isn't actually remotely unique to Estra. Or at least I could empathize with a similar sentiment.
(Just a reminder; it has been long confirmed by Vic that you can include AD# -2 Loot cards if you're unable to construct a legal deck following a normal non-OP scenario. Not sure whether you were suggesting that be overruled in regular rules to avoid this in the future or not, since you implied it shouldn't be allowed.)
EDIT:
The whole Meligaster/Rivani line in OP is a red herring. If you're playing one of those characters in OP, you're not also playing Estra from the same deck. Even if someone else is playing OA2 Estra in OP and loses Honaire, the Meligaster/Rivani characters couldn't keep Honaire because Honaire isn't coming from *their* deck (he's coming from a different OA2 deck). "Cards given or exchanged during play should be returned to the owner when the game is over." Honaire couldn't be taken as a deck upgrade because he's a loot and hasn't been earned. So the hypothetical OP situation could not take place.
I'm a little lost on a few points here, and I feel I may have misinterpreted your points or your context, because I'm not sure how a lot of this is relevant. Are you suggesting that if Loot was never earned by a given character, it could never be used in their deck, even with the aforementioned rule clarified by Vic? Let's say in normal (Non-OP) play, I had a character die in AD5 during the same scenario that some AD2 loot was banished from his deck. Could my replacement character not rebuild his deck from that Loot, because my replacement character never earned it in the first place?
And to also clarify, I'm not worried about a situation occurring where Estra can't use Honaire. I'm worried that Honaire isn't remotely unique to her (and can be put in another's deck permanently as early as Scenario 2), which significantly changes my opinions about the 3 characters' relative power levels in OA1.
I stand corrected on the OA1/OA2 confusion (I've been very focused on OA2 with my harrowers project).
Yes, Mike and Vic stated back in 2015 that loot was available for those times when a character's deck needs to be filled out and insufficient cards are available. At that time, all loot was "unlocked" (not an official term) during play, either as a reward for a scenario/objective or somehow acquired during play. So it makes perfect sense that such loot would remain in the "stash" (the cards that may be taken to fill out decks).
OA1 Estra/Honaire changed that paradigm a bit. Now there is loot that can be unlocked via character rules (but only for that character). So Estra can take Honaire in between games, but nobody else can. Sure, any character might use Honaire during a scenario (if they somehow get him in their deck). After the game, though, he goes back to Estra. This applies in both regular play and organized play.
The consistent elemeny is that loot is only available once it has been "unlocked." Any character that needs a weapon in WotR 3+ can take Radiance because that weapon was earned earlier in the AP. Honaire, meanwhile, is only unlocked for Estra via her rules, so only Estra can take Honaire (and she'd be a fool not to).
They just need to tidy the rules up a bit to make this clear (or rather, to erase the loophole that allows the hypothesized exploit).
This is all my opinion, of course, and I don't presume to speak for the designers. I might even be completely wrong, in which case I would welcome clarification. It just seems to me that I've described the logical intent.
I see four categories of cards that characters may have in their decks (focused on starting characters - no scenarios/adventures under their belts):
- regular cards
- 'You may treat 1 copy of the card X as if it says "Owner: Name"'
- loot
- cohort
"You may treat..." cards are (generally) cards that don't have the Basic trait, but since they have the character listed as an owner, that character may treat them as if they have the Basic trait and may include them in their deck.
Loot cards (Honaire is the only extant example,but I'll bet that we will see more in the future) are similar to the previous category, but being loot, they may only be kept by that specific character (or any other character whose rules "unlock" the loot).
Cohort cards, like loot cards, may only be kept in between games by a character that lists them in their card/deck rules. The two properties that cohorts have over loot cards are that they don't take up card slots (that's one additional health) and they are added to the character's starting hand after the full hand size has been dealt at the start of the game (they are a sure thing). Cohorts are generally integral to the character's power balance, whereas loot cards are nice, but won't cripple the character's playability if they're not always available.
Evidently the designers felt that Estra needed neither the extra health nor the guarantee that Honaire would be in her starting hand in order to be balanced with the other characters.
This is an interesting take on things, but it is not currently in the rules.
(Minor note: Actually, Honaire is guaranteed to be in Estra's starting hand, as he is her Favored Card Type.)
Fascinating, thank you.
I confess I still find it hard to point to a ruling - either in the Mummy's Mask Rulebook, the Adventure Card Guild Guide, or the FAQs - that clarify that another OA1 character can't include Honaire in their deck between scenarios (assuming Estra was not a part of the party and never was) or clarifying the 'unlocking' aspect, though it makes intuitive sense to me.
Just another tiny nitpick (sorry!):
Evidently the designers felt that Estra needed neither the extra health nor the guarantee that Honaire would be in her starting hand in order to be balanced with the other characters.
Honaire will not be a bonus starting card like a Cohort, but it will always be in her starting hand. "(Loot Ally) Honaire" is her favored card type. There's also the non-OP difference between a Cohort and Honaire, in that even when banished you can still (and indeed will have to) rebuild your deck to include Honaire, but you cannot recover a Cohort.
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In my opinion they should change the rules/ruling such that you can only ever take loot that someone in your party has unlocked at some point. Getting back that loot you threw out to lack of deck slots seems fine, getting loot you never earned seems wrong. If they fixed that, then Honaire would work the way that it feels like Honaire was supposed to work.
I think the problem with Honaire is that he's a low adventure deck number because he's essentially part of Estra's design, but he's also overpowered for that adventure deck number, also because he's part of Estra's design. If they want loot to work the way it does though, there is still design space for it in character decks. The loot should be good for its AD number, but just ok for AD number + 2. Something that's too good for any AD number, but there as part of a specific character's design, seems like exactly the design space that Cohorts are there to fill (loath as I am to bring that discussion back up). But I can understand that Cohorts had other issues and making it loot is in a lot of ways the lesser of many evils.