Hi
Does Elemental Annihilator and Kinetic Knight stack?
Just an ongoing debate among friends.
Can anyone provide an official answer, please?
Thanks
Paul H
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Increased Range (Su): This ability replaces the 3rd- and 9th-level infusions.
and
Knight’s Resolve (Ex): This ability replaces the kineticist infusion gained at 3rd level and supercharge.
As they both replace the 3rd level infusion, they are not compatible and do not stack.
in this thread, someone challenged the ideas associated with archetype stacking based on the FAQ from 2015.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9thg
bverji (refer to his remarks)
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ro2b?Archetype-Stacking#1
after reviewing the information further please provide an opinion and why you feel that way regardless of whether it is RAW or not RAW.
Evan Riggs wrote: in this thread, someone challenged the ideas associated with archetype stacking based on the FAQ from 2015.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9thg
bverji (refer to his remarks)
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ro2b?Archetype-Stacking#1
after reviewing the information further please provide an opinion and why you feel that way regardless of whether it is RAW or not RAW.
In this case, the FAQ gives specific examples for the language it is attempting to clarify. The first is an example of bardic performance, and the individual performances gained under the larger umbrella of bardic performance being the abilities changed out. Specifically, while an archetype replacing Fascinate or Countersong are technically altering the overall ability of bardic performance, it is not a change to the complete ability. Similarly with Weapon Training, if one archetype only altered Weapon Training 1 and no other abilities, it could be stacked with any other archetype that modified any instance of Weapon Training except Weapon Training 1. In the bard's case, if one archetype only replaces countersong, and another only replaces fascinate, they would stack, as even though it changes sub-abilities under the main ability of bardic performance.
For a kineticist, this would apply if one archetype altered Plasma Blast, and another archetype altered Steam Blast. They would not conflict on that instance, as even though they both modify a specific instance of Composite Blast, it is only a specific type of Composite Blast, not the feature itself. If something altered how the entirety of Composite Blast functioned, such as reducing the burn cost, and another archetype altered the burn cost of Plasma Blast, they would not be compatible as the parent Composite Blase feature had been altered.
In the case of Elemental Annihilator and Kinetic Knight, the ability changed out that causes the conflict is the infusion gained at third level. When you select Kinetic Knight, you trade out the third level infusion and supercharge for Knight's Resolve. When you then attempt to apply Elemental Annihilator, you no longer have a third level infusion to trade out. You have Knight's Resolve, which does not meet the requirement to trade out a 3rd level infusion.
The last sentence on the FAQ has the kicker to this, which means there will never be 100% agreement on this subject - This is all up to the GM at the table. If that GM allows it, it's fine. If not, then that's the way that GM has decided to run it.
Personally? I think archetypes could be more flexible for abilities, and any game I run I say that archetypes can stack as long as the changes the archetypes would make would work if applied in either order. For instance, if the only conflict to two archetypes would be a level 20 ability, and nothing would be changed in the levels prior either way, I would let the player stack the archetypes.
In this case, I might give it to the player if they took Knight's Resolve, and moved the extended range infusion that would normally be placed in at 3rd level infusion to the 9th level infusion, and the character did not gain extreme range as the archetype normally gives. That is entirely depending on reviewing how the archetype abilities would interact with each other. Again, that would be a house rule. Not anything official. Officially, it doesn't stack.
thank you very much i hope that makes things more clear for the player in question.
actually can you show me what the 2 archetypes would look like stacked, i have tried to figure out what stays whhat goes what gets pushed back. the kinetic knight says it alters some infusions by gaining a list but it says it alters the existing infsuions. then later replaces one as well.
Evan Riggs wrote: actually can you show me what the 2 archetypes would look like stacked, i have tried to figure out what stays whhat goes what gets pushed back. the kinetic knight says it alters some infusions by gaining a list but it says it alters the existing infsuions. then later replaces one as well.
You CAN'T stack Elemental Annihilator and Kinetic Knight, as previously stated.
Bloodrealm i know this you know this we know this.
Quoting Jason Kain
"Personally? I think archetypes could be more flexible for abilities, and any game I run I say that archetypes can stack as long as the changes the archetypes would make would work if applied in either order. For instance, if the only conflict to two archetypes would be a level 20 ability, and nothing would be changed in the levels prior either way, I would let the player stack the archetypes.
In this case, I might give it to the player if they took Knight's Resolve, and moved the extended range infusion that would normally be placed in at 3rd level infusion to the 9th level infusion, and the character did not gain extreme range as the archetype normally gives. That is entirely depending on reviewing how the archetype abilities would interact with each other. Again, that would be a house rule. Not anything official. Officially, it doesn't stack."
and Quoting me
"actually can you show me what the 2 archetypes would look like stacked, i have tried to figure out what stays whhat goes what gets pushed back. the kinetic knight says it alters some infusions by gaining a list but it says it alters the existing infsuions. then later replaces one as well."
you were never part of this discussion why join now
i acknowledged it doesnt stack, but based on what he said he would do as a house rule, im curious what it would look like, i tried to work it out and got confused on what would happen here and there.
i mean the forums are more than just rules as written and rules as intended they are also for discussions.
its like other than RAW, the only thing stopping a Synthesist and a Shadowcaller fetchling from stacking is the eidolon flavor text of a shadow eidolon.
it seperates from your shadow and becomes an eidolon, then synthesist would take over and fuse it on to you.
otherwise they properly stack. but yes RAW it isnt allowed.
and while i agree it isnt allowed, just like in my games i house rule i dont let more than 2 archetypes be stacked even if there is no RAW limit as long as they dont conflict. personally i dont like players stacking archetypes at all.
and if we go down the RAW path. then there is no roleplay either as roleplay is a house rule in and of itsself. its an intended paart of the game but no written rule on how you have to play the character except when it comes to codes and alignments.
Evan Riggs wrote: i acknowledged it doesnt stack, but based on what he said he would do as a house rule, im curious what it would look like, i tried to work it out and got confused on what would happen here and there.
i mean the forums are more than just rules as written and rules as intended they are also for discussions.
At best you would have to choose between abilities where ever the archetypes both replaced the same core class ability. Essentially a gestalt archetype. This is likely to be either overpowered, broken, or both, so I really don't suggest it.
Belabras wrote: so I really don't suggest it. Yes I agree. but for the sake of what ifs
ok example of part of the question
Elemental Blade, alters your infusions list Right, we are in agreement there.
third level it Replaces your 3rd level infusion with Resolve from Samurai.
the archetype already contradicts itself.
other archetypes, say fighter, Replaces weapon training 1, you gain weapon training later from a different feature it says (in the faq or actual Rw somethwere your Weapon training 1 would now actually be gained at a later level. which im assuming atm is also right.
so if that were the case and all your infusions get pushed back. going on that logic.
lvl 1,
Elemental blade 1st infusion, alters normal level 1 infusion then the annihilator replaces it and when you would normally get your 3rd lvl infusion you get elemental blades 1st ability.
nope Resolve comes in and pushes that back but the resolve gets replaced by the annihilator's ability.
ok 5th lvl you finally get the kinetic knights level 1 infusion ability and it nullify's your level 1 Devastating infusion because it now requires kinetic blade to use the blast at all.
9th lvl you finally gget the 3rd level kinetic elemental blade infu.... no because both classes at 3rd lvl replace a given ability. they both cant be right. thats where the 2 archetypes would even in a house rule break and conflict in my mind.
but even if some one house ruled something in there. how would the rest of the mess look.
we dont know cause no one wants the headache of trying to figure it out. much less balance it.
so if someone wanted to allow it this is why i am ask9ing
What if. I'm not saying i would or wouldnt allow it. I already made my statement in that regard.
now im only saying what if, what would it look like.
OK, so ASIDE from stacking them lets look at just the Kinetic Knight.
Elemental Blade (Su)
At 1st level, a kinetic knight gains the kinetic blade form infusion, and it costs 0 points of burn instead of 1 point. She can’t use her kinetic blast without the kinetic blade form infusion or an infusion that lists kinetic blade as a prerequisite.
At 3rd level, the kinetic knight gains the blade rush infusion.
At 5th level, she gains the kinetic whip infusion. Her kinetic whip has the disarm, performance, and trip weapon qualities.
At 9th level, she gains the blade whirlwind infusion.
At 11th level, she gains the whip hurricane infusion.
At 13th level as a swift action, she can accept 2 points of burn to unleash a kinetic blast with the blade rush infusion.
This ability alters kinetic blast and infusions, and replaces metakinesis and metakinetic master.
Knight’s Resolve (Ex)
At 3rd level, the kinetic knight gains the samurai’s resolve class feature, as a samurai of her kineticist level – 2. At 11th level, she gains the samurai’s greater resolve ability.
If she also has samurai levels, those levels stack with her kineticist levels to determine the benefits of this ability.
This ability replaces the kineticist infusion gained at 3rd level and supercharge.
ok so 1st Elemental blade.
gains and a list of abilities but it alters the infusions list.
3rd lvl it replaces the 3rd lvl infusion that was previously altered with the Elemental blade.
or is this a misnomer by the company or by thhose of us trying to read it.
Evan Riggs wrote: Bloodrealm i know this you know this we know this.
...
you were never part of this discussion why join now
Well, that's a bit rude. Your post appeared as if you missed the fact it was a house rule and were saying you didn't understand how it worked given what is written in the rules.
"someone challenged the ideas associated"
early in the thread it states this. I did not say me.
i then went on to say
Regardless of RAW or RAI. how would it look.
Rude is assuming i didnt acknowledge RAW or RAI.
Rude is not how i responded, that was me being nice.
I wont be rude how i consider rude cause i have no interest in being banned.
Had you read the full thread you might have noticed that to begin with.
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