How much are the Void Yai's void powers worth, CR-wise?

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Lets say we remove Void Form, Void Missile and Void Trap from the Void Yai in order to add something else to make a more unique version. How much are those powers worth in your opinion? Alternatively, what would you be willing to give the oni to keep it more-or-less at the same CR?

[Pizza Lord]

I can't determine the amount specifically; such things aren't my forte`. For Void Missile, I would say removing its only consistent ranged attack (and as as swift action, mostly a free one unless it uses a different power) would hugely lower its CR at the level it's set for. It would be range bait. Granted, it can teleport, but even with its reach it couldn't get more than a few in a group that just spread out and kept blasting at it. The damage isn't super, but 2 levels of energy drain makes it potent even against high-level foes (the 10 temporary hit points each time seems small, but they add up, especially if they soak damage from fire or good spells first, which would suppress his regeneration).

For Void Form, that's probably not as much of a loss, but you're removing its ability to do a lot of special things, like blend or move through walls and barriers (that aren't wider than it), and ignore non-magical attacks (yes its regeneration helps to heal it).

For Void Trap, that's a tough thing to quantify. It's basically a free, unlimited trap (since its teleport is at will) so it can leave a bunch of these laying around (it's possible I misread or missed a part about only having one at a time). Now, I didn't see anything at a glance about the oni being immune to void attacks or the spheres not going after them in the absence of other creatures (or even in the presence of other creatures if it comes down to random choice) so it probably wouldn't leave them as traps spaced any closer than 30 feet, since that would trigger the first sphere and send it into him. While mostly a trap, it is like a free attacker every round, since he can teleport away from a threat, and the next round it will hit one of his foes.

For alternatives, are you looking for ones that keep the creature's void theme, or are you just looking for any old ability to fill your void? (pun intended)

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I'm looking to make different versions. For example, I'm currently working on two Void Yai, one being an assassin, the other a fire themed berserker.

[I3igAl]

Anarchy_Kanya wrote:

I'm looking to make different versions. For example, I'm currently working on two Void Yai, one being an assassin, the other a fire themed berserker.

Hard to tell

An average CR 20 encounter has 370hp, 36 AC, 30-23 Attack and deals 120-90 damage according to the table
The Oni has 379hp, 36Ac, 39(34 when Power Attacking) Attack and deals 12d8+100(154) damage.
The Voidlord already is an above average bruiser for level 20 and not that reliant on his special abilities, therefore replacing them should not hurt him that much.

Void Missile - seems quite pathetic and irrelevant at that level, since the dude can teleport and fly, he should stay in melee against most characters IMO. Still nice as an extra swift action, when casting

Void form - makes him incorporal(which halves most damage) and allows spamming spells and Void missiles, while using hit and runs through walls, if the GM is mean

Void Trap - is insanely abuseable if spammed before combat and still pretty cool if not. It is what makes this monster unique and surprising to the group.

__________

You could use the Rogue creature/Barbarian creature class templates. Or you could just make the Berserker guy a Fiery Creature, half fiend or something.

Another possibility would be to just switch a couple of spell likes, mix up the tactics and reskin a little. Void Trap with disintegrate makes an insanely effective assasination tool. Teleport into target > target explodes > teleport away, makes for an insanely effective assasin. Have the Assasin guy use his Void abillities. And let him stay the same aside of switching around some skill points.

The Flame Berserker gets fire shield instead of chill Shield and Rage or if you wanna be mean Righteous Might instead of another Spell Like, which he uses to hulk up and fly into melee.
His Void missile would be a Flame missile, which could deal slightly more damage due to an inferior energy type. It would also need another on hit effect. Maybe it could blind due to being quite flashy or it could work similar to to the witchfires witchflame.
Ther Void Form could be some kind of Fire Elemental Form(keep it incorporal, but now it applies Burn to whoever touches it).
Void Trap could work the same but instead of disintegrating spheres leave delayed Blast Fireballs(weaker), Incendary Clouds or Meteor Swarms at the target location. Also make him weak vs Fire and strong vs cold.

EDIT: weak vs cold and immune to fire

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I was considering giving the berserker revelations of a 20th level Flame Oracle. It does not need to be exactly equal to the removed powers, but obviously I'd like it to not be too powerful or weak in comparison. That's why I'm asking for opinions.